Is Celebrating Living an Authentic Life a One Way Street?

[Johnnie Cake]

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Oh, I do. Many of the friends I see are ex or inactive Mormons and I love them. Of course they are also not insufferable gifts about leaving. In fact your need to distinguish the difference between those who leave and those who stay is more effective at "othering" then anything I have said. It is a common refrain: "Treat me just like everyone else while I yell loudly about how different I am please!"

Again thank you for your compassionate and tolerant post Nehor 

[Storm Rider]

3 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

During last nights general women's session, Sister Linda Burton said: 

“On my recent assignment to Asia...I was particularly impressed with first-generation members in India, Malaysia, and Indonesia, who strive to live the gospel culture in their own homes, sometimes at great sacrifice as gospel living often clashes with family and country cultures."

While I think it's great to celebrate the sacrifices made by those living LDS standards when they are in the minority...it made me wonder if we should not also be celebrating the sacrifices made by former believers who find themselves in a similar situation Living as minorities in Utah .  These individuals find themselves as a minority, they must often make great sacrifices while  attempting to live authenticly even when doing so clashes with the majority Mormon culture here in Utah. Does this philosophy also apply to these people as well or does it only apply to Mormons?

To be clear...I am not asking Sister Burton as a woman representative of the LDS church to celebrate former believers...I think that would be taking it a bit far.  I am merely asking in a general sense if we as fellow human beings should find room to celebrate all individuals who are required to make sacrifices to live their lives authenticity...wherever we might find them. 

This is demonstrative of confusion on so many levels.  Let's work with the major flaws in your logic:

1. The issue is living gospel principles in societies and cultures where that standard is in conflict with all that surrounds them. There is an assumption here that moral principles, gospel principles are worth making a sacrifice.  
2. Simple being a minority does not automatically result in something to be admired or recognized as superior to everything else.
3. Throughout human history there has been created a massive amount of literature, philosphies, and folklore about those who sacrifice to live by higher principles - it is the hero that sacrifices something of value to benefit others is an example. 

How does one assume that another is living an "authentic" lifestyle or in a manner that causes great sacrifice?  What principles of morality have they assumed to live this authentic life?  

Should we rejoice with all those who do their best?  Of course!  However, I believe what Sis Burton was counting on is that listeners understand that we are seeking the ideal - we are seeking to live in a manner in keeping with being disciples of Jesus Christ.  Think about the 13th Article of Fath - that is what we seek to emulate and admire in others regardless of their faith.

[Rain]

30 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Tolerance and appreciation for everyone irrespective of faith, religion or non religion status. Accepting people for who they are and not as you wish they were...appreciating at yes even former member make great sacrifices at home and with friends and family to achieve authenticity in their life.

Thank you.

First I think there is a difference in celebrating and tolerance. 

Second, yes we should recognize people for who they are and not who we want them to be. By personal experience I can tell you it is incredibly difficult accepting someone has agency when they go down paths that I believe are destructive. If you truly love someone it will be hard to see that happen even while having faith that things will work out. I understand completely why it would be hard for a non LDS person to see their child join our church if they feel the LDS path is destructive. So yes, we should have tolerance for those non LDS or former LDS - we don't actually believe in agency if we can't let others use their agency.

I think appeciating sacrifices to live an authentic life is tricky. I know an individual who sacrificed family to live an authentic life. His idea of authentic life is spending thousands on video games , racking up debt and needing to borrow money to have a car battery replaced because he has spent all his money.

Is that something I should appreciate? Or maybe just tolerate and recognize he has agency?

It really depends on what you think of as sacrifices. Some, like his friend, think he has sacrificed his family and cheer him on because he is authentic. Some will things feel he threw away family for something that doesn't really matter. It's all in the eye of the beholder. 

[Johnnie Cake]

18 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

This is demonstrative of confusion on so many levels.  Let's work with the major flaws in your logic:

1. The issue is living gospel principles in societies and cultures where that standard is in conflict with all that surrounds them. There is an assumption here that moral principles, gospel principles are worth making a sacrifice.  
2. Simple being a minority does not automatically result in something to be admired or recognized as superior to everything else.
3. Throughout human history there has been created a massive amount of literature, philosphies, and folklore about those who sacrifice to live by higher principles - it is the hero that sacrifices something of value to benefit others is an example. 

How does one assume that another is living an "authentic" lifestyle or in a manner that causes great sacrifice?  What principles of morality have they assumed to live this authentic life?  

Should we rejoice with all those who do their best?  Of course!  However, I believe what Sis Burton was counting on is that listeners understand that we are seeking the ideal - we are seeking to live in a manner in keeping with being disciples of Jesus Christ.  Think about the 13th Article of Fath - that is what we seek to emulate and admire in others regardless of their faith.

Your argument presupposes that living a so called Mormon standard is superior or requires a greater sacrifice than someone who is a former believer, living in Utah who chooses not to live that so called standard...I reject your premise 

ive posted in the past of this silent notion of superiority that sometimes exists among believers...I sense this in your post.  Are my observations warranted or am I misreading your post?

Edited March 27, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Johnnie Cake]

14 minutes ago, Rain said:

Thank you.

First I think there is a difference in celebrating and tolerance. 

Second, yes we should recognize people for who they are and not who we want them to be. By personal experience I can tell you it is incredibly difficult accepting someone has agency when they go down paths that I believe are destructive. If you truly love someone it will be hard to see that happen even while having faith that things will work out. I understand completely why it would be hard for a non LDS person to see their child join our church if they feel the LDS path is destructive. So yes, we should have tolerance for those non LDS or former LDS - we don't actually believe in agency if we can't let others use their agency.

I think appeciating sacrifices to live an authentic life is tricky. I know an individual who sacrificed family to live an authentic life. His idea of authentic life is spending thousands on video games , racking up debt and needing to borrow money to have a car battery replaced because he has spent all his money.

Is that something I should appreciate? Or maybe just tolerate and recognize he has agency?

It really depends on what you think of as sacrifices. Some, like his friend, think he has sacrificed his family and cheer him on because he is authentic. Some will things feel he threw away family for something that doesn't really matter. It's all in the eye of the beholder. 

So does being a believer in Mormonism prevent seeing former believers as equals and deserving of equal status? Does it require viewing us as "less than" or beneath a believer?

 

i just want to add that I thought your comments were very thoughtful and constructive. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Bobbieaware]

53 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I'm curious why we can't just agree that we should all try to appreciate the various sacrifices each of us make for our respective beliefs?  Why cast it in some ulterior manner? Why can't the message just stand on its own merits?

Because I have a testimony of the Restored Gospel, I couldn't frame my response in any other way and remain true to myself. 

[The Nehor]

22 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Again thank you for your compassionate and tolerant post Nehor 

I feel terrible I cannot do more. Is there a refugee fund I can contribute to to help these poor oppressed ex-LDS escape persecution? Most nations are slow to accept refugees but maybe we can trade "one for one" with Syria or something?

[BlueDreams]

4 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

During last nights general women's session, Sister Linda Burton said: 

“On my recent assignment to Asia...I was particularly impressed with first-generation members in India, Malaysia, and Indonesia, who strive to live the gospel culture in their own homes, sometimes at great sacrifice as gospel living often clashes with family and country cultures."

While I think it's great to celebrate the sacrifices made by those living LDS standards when they are in the minority...it made me wonder if we should not also be celebrating the sacrifices made by former believers who find themselves in a similar situation Living as minorities in Utah .  These individuals find themselves as a minority, they must often make great sacrifices while  attempting to live authenticly even when doing so clashes with the majority Mormon culture here in Utah. Does this philosophy also apply to these people as well or does it only apply to Mormons?

To be clear...I am not asking Sister Burton as a woman representative of the LDS church to celebrate former believers...I think that would be taking it a bit far.  I am merely asking in a general sense if we as fellow human beings should find room to celebrate all individuals who are required to make sacrifices to live their lives authenticity...wherever we might find them. 

Before I start painting. I think part of the problem is the comparison. I want to say a year or so ago I went to a conference about LDS women's history. It was amazing. In one of them, they talked about collecting the stories and histories in regions like India. These stories were not simply about leaving a faith. They often entailed learning to interact with men in their church in ways completely new to that region with a strict male preference and deference. About reconstructing cultural trends to one based off of Christ-based principles that acknowledged the divine worth of all humans, both male and female and in spite of whatever caste one was born in. Living the gospel wasn't just a lifestyle choice but a deep constructive change that could lead to major changes for generations on how they interacted and saw their fellows. The stories were indeed harrowing. And the sacrifices often don't hold equivalents to those in circumstances here.

I imagine Burton was talking about women much like these presented in the conference. 

With former believers their stories do not necessarily infer something harrowing in and of themselves, though I am sure many may feel such. Though I can respect another's life journey as their own, and there may be elements that I may even empathize or find value in, celebrating isn't something that I'm usually doing. I think of the stories that I have heard (first hand, by them) that include former believers. That's about all they have in common....to some degree they were once mormon. Some stories I feel such pain with. Some are simply their stories and journeys and there isn't much to celebrate than celebrating a move to a different town or other life events. Some I get a little irritated by for reasons that can include unnecessary distancing, stereotyping their neighbors and wards, or other things. And some I'm a little disgusted by. I know that's not the PC answer. But I assure you, if you knew the details of the lives they burned and what "authenticity" was looking like for them....you too would probably be a little disturbed.

Somewhat related. I was watching a documentary called Dr. Feelgood. It was all about this doctor who proscribed an excess amount of pain drugs to clients and gets convicted for it as basically a drug dealer. Obviously THAT part isn't parallel to this. But what struck me, was this guy wasn't really "bad" in the common use of the word. He wasn't malicious and came off as sweet and loving if not a little arrogant in his principle to love all by caring for all with few restraints. He was really permissive, believed too much in taking care of people's pain, and turned a blind eye to people that were obviously abusing the drugs. He used noble intentions to justify what ended up causing gross amounts of drug addiction, pain, and even death....because he was inevitably a healer in his eyes. His healing, though, was often closer to enabling. I found myself paralleling this to what I see with things like this. Celebrating or defending nonbelievers for simply living "authentically" with very few qualifiers or little scratching beyond the surface of disaffection isn't something I can subscribe to. For me, that permits several degrees of unhealthy to go unchecked and aren't really pushed back on. It can impede growth.

I can celebrate working through difficult odds for a greater good. But if it makes you feel better I don't generally celebrate individual people period. I celebrate things/lives/experiences that I see as good and Godly wherever that may be found. And that can include in lives that you hoped would be celebrated. Anything that brings greater light is something to praise. 

 

With luv,

BD

[Rain]

10 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

So does being a believer in Mormonism prevent seeing former believers as equals and deserving of equal status? Does it require viewing us as "less than" or beneath a believer?

 

i just want to add that I thought your comments were very thoughtful and constructive. 

No, believing in Mormonism doesn't prevent seeing former members as equals, but a misunderstanding of our beliefs might cause one to think he is better than a former believer. Anyone who only sees motes in others eyes while ignoring their beam don't completely understand that all who are lost without Christ applies to them as well.

That doesn't mean we have to be blind to faults. You might clearly see I eat too much. I might clearly see you (however you sin). We can even firmly believe that the other should change, but still feel and treat each other as we equal.

[Ahab]

No, unless maybe they're living their lives pretty much exactly as I am living my life and to celebrate the way I live my life is also to celebrate theirs at the very same time. 

But anything different or diametrically opposed to my way, naaah, I don't think so.  Let them throw their own parties.

[Johnnie Cake]

12 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

Before I start painting. I think part of the problem is the comparison. I want to say a year or so ago I went to a conference about LDS women's history. It was amazing. In one of them, they talked about collecting the stories and histories in regions like India. These stories were not simply about leaving a faith. They often entailed learning to interact with men in their church in ways completely new to that region with a strict male preference and deference. About reconstructing cultural trends to one based off of Christ-based principles that acknowledged the divine worth of all humans, both male and female and in spite of whatever caste one was born in. Living the gospel wasn't just a lifestyle choice but a deep constructive change that could lead to major changes for generations on how they interacted and saw their fellows. The stories were indeed harrowing. And the sacrifices often don't hold equivalents to those in circumstances here.

I imagine Burton was talking about women much like these presented in the conference. 

With former believers their stories do not necessarily infer something harrowing in and of themselves, though I am sure many may feel such. Though I can respect another's life journey as their own, and there may be elements that I may even empathize or find value in, celebrating isn't something that I'm usually doing. I think of the stories that I have heard (first hand, by them) that include former believers. That's about all they have in common....to some degree they were once mormon. Some stories I feel such pain with. Some are simply their stories and journeys and there isn't much to celebrate than celebrating a move to a different town or other life events. Some I get a little irritated by for reasons that can include unnecessary distancing, stereotyping their neighbors and wards, or other things. And some I'm a little disgusted by. I know that's not the PC answer. But I assure you, if you knew the details of the lives they burned and what "authenticity" was looking like for them....you too would probably be a little disturbed.

Somewhat related. I was watching a documentary called Dr. Feelgood. It was all about this doctor who proscribed an excess amount of pain drugs to clients and gets convicted for it as basically a drug dealer. Obviously THAT part isn't parallel to this. But what struck me, was this guy wasn't really "bad" in the common use of the word. He wasn't malicious and came off as sweet and loving if not a little arrogant in his principle to love all by caring for all with few restraints. He was really permissive, believed too much in taking care of people's pain, and turned a blind eye to people that were obviously abusing the drugs. He used noble intentions to justify what ended up causing gross amounts of drug addiction, pain, and even death....because he was inevitably a healer in his eyes. His healing, though, was often closer to enabling. I found myself paralleling this to what I see with things like this. Celebrating or defending nonbelievers for simply living "authentically" with very few qualifiers or little scratching beyond the surface of disaffection isn't something I can subscribe to. For me, that permits several degrees of unhealthy to go unchecked and aren't really pushed back on. It can impede growth.

I can celebrate working through difficult odds for a greater good. But if it makes you feel better I don't generally celebrate individual people period. I celebrate things/lives/experiences that I see as good and Godly wherever that may be found. And that can include in lives that you hoped would be celebrated. Anything that brings greater light is something to praise. 

 

With luv,

BD

Thank you for your thoughtful comments 

[Five Solas]

Is authenticity something LDS value?  Is authenticity an LDS value?  The only time that word appears on lds.org is in the context of the Book of Mormon (which, multiple authorities want you to understand, is very authentic).  But at the individual level, yeah--not so much.  The LDS need for conformity and their fear of strongly differing views plays out on this very forum.  It's the staunchly LDS posters who use the "report post" option against critics.  And see what happened earlier today when an LDS poster stepped out of the safety of LDS mainstream thought and defended "Alt-Right."  The thread was locked & the discussion ended.  Because someone was getting a little too authentic. 

How that helps anyone, I dunno.  But then again, I'm no longer LDS.  Maybe it makes sense if you are. 

--Erik

_________________________________________

Clutch it like a cornerstone
Otherwise it all comes down
Justify denials and grip it to the lonesome end

Saturn ascends, comes round again
Saturn ascends, the one, the ten
Ignorant to the damage done

--Tool "The Grudge"

[juliann]

6 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

So your saying no, we shouldn't extend this courtesy to former believers?

I think I said quite clearly that men need to step back and let women talk to each other without making it all about you. She was specifically talking about "certain women."  In a women's conference for women. And stepping over us to air your own grievances is not appropriate. If you want to talk about your own mistreatment maybe it is best not to step over these women to do it.

[Meadowchik]

4 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

Because I have a testimony of the Restored Gospel, I couldn't frame my response in any other way and remain true to myself. 

Which is an excellent example of why, to you, an unbeliever is living an inferior life and you cannot avoid but to treat them that way. If you are consistent, unbelievers are only playing a role as the lost sheep until that inevitable time of their return.

If you are consistent, you cannot concieve of the possibility that perhaps they are living a life equal or superior to yours in integrity and joy.

Thus, you wouldn't be capable of respecting them as they really are, only as currently losing players in a mythological dream that you believe is real.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Meadowchik

[Meadowchik]

46 minutes ago, juliann said:

I think I said quite clearly that men need to step back and let women talk to each other without making it all about you. She was specifically talking about "certain women."  In a women's conference for women. And stepping over us to air your own grievances is not appropriate. If you want to talk about your own mistreatment maybe it is best not to step over these women to do it.

Women have already stepped forward against Burton's remarks. The OP can easily join in because cultural assimilation applies to both genders.

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

During last nights general women's session, Sister Linda Burton said: 

“On my recent assignment to Asia...I was particularly impressed with first-generation members in India, Malaysia, and Indonesia, who strive to live the gospel culture in their own homes, sometimes at great sacrifice as gospel living often clashes with family and country cultures."

While I think it's great to celebrate the sacrifices made by those living LDS standards when they are in the minority...it made me wonder if we should not also be celebrating the sacrifices made by former believers who find themselves in a similar situation Living as minorities in Utah .  These individuals find themselves as a minority, they must often make great sacrifices while  attempting to live authenticly even when doing so clashes with the majority Mormon culture here in Utah. Does this philosophy also apply to these people as well or does it only apply to Mormons?

There is a stark difference between the way minorities are treated in places like India, and the way they are treated in Utah.  In Utah, minorities find themselves well respected and honored -- even supported, as in the case of the Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, and Jewish communities in SLC.  On the other hand, minorities are often subjected to severe persecution and even death in India.  https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/04/04/plight-religious-minorities-india , and http://www.atimes.com/article/minorities-in-indian-polity-a-grim-tale-of-discrimination-violence-state-impunity// , and http://blogs.reuters.com/talesfromthetrail/2009/08/13/us-criticizes-india-on-treatment-of-religious-minorities/ .  The persecution is even more severe in Pakistan.

8 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

To be clear...I am not asking Sister Burton as a woman representative of the LDS church to celebrate former believers...I think that would be taking it a bit far.  I am merely asking in a general sense if we as fellow human beings should find room to celebrate all individuals who are required to make sacrifices to live their lives authenticity...wherever we might find them. 

I find it a much better way to treat female general officers of the LDS faith by referring to them the same way we refer to male general officers of the Church -- by their actual titles.  In this instance, since she is the President of the Church Relief Society, we should refer to her as "President Burton."  We simply do not show enough respect to female leaders, even though they are often far more effective than the men.

[Bobbieaware]

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Which is an excellent example of why, to you, an unbeliever is living an inferior life and you cannot avoid but to treat them that way. If you are consistent, unbelievers are only playing a role as the lost sheep until that inevitable time of their return.

If you are consistent, you cannot concieve of the possibility that perhaps they are living a life equal or superior to yours in integrity and joy.

Thus, you wouldn't be capable of respecting them as they really are, only as currently losing players in a mythological dream that you believe is real.

Well your logic is flawed. Do you think that I as a believing Latter-day Saint have any less respect for Alma the Younger, the sons of Mosiah and the apostle Paul as holy prophets of God just because they spent significant portions of their lives as unbelievers who were in states of wholesale rebellion against God before they learned by their own experiences how to mend their ways? No I have the utmost respect for each of these great men of God and can honestly say to you I consider each one of them to be among my greatest heroes.

All of us are in the same boat: In order to become more like God, each of us must enter the fallen state and, as Mother Eve so wisely testified, taste the bitterness of lives lived without God in order to ultimately learn how to prize the joys of lives lived with living faith in God. Just because it may take some of God's children longer to learn how to prize the sweet and eschew the bitter doesn't mean their life experiences are any less noble, valid, authentic and dignified than the life experiences of those who learn to prize the sweet more quickly. That's why the atonement of Christ is an infinite and eternal sacrifice, with more than enough cleansing capacity to turn sins that are as red as the deepest scarlet into righteousness and virtue as pure as the cleanest, whitest snow. It's more important to God that his sons and daughters eventually return home to him than It is how quickly they return home, for the prodigal son is just as beloved and eternally important in his eyes as the son who never once left his side. 

 

Edited March 27, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[rongo]

15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

What does living authentically even mean?

It means proving that you live an authentic life by posting updates of your meals, fun events, and friends on social media. 

[Johnnie Cake]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There is a stark difference between the way minorities are treated in places like India, and the way they are treated in Utah.  In Utah, minorities find themselves well respected and honored -- even supported, as in the case of the Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, and Jewish communities in SLC.  On the other hand, minorities are often subjected to severe persecution and even death in India.  https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/04/04/plight-religious-minorities-india , and http://www.atimes.com/article/minorities-in-indian-polity-a-grim-tale-of-discrimination-violence-state-impunity// , and http://blogs.reuters.com/talesfromthetrail/2009/08/13/us-criticizes-india-on-treatment-of-religious-minorities/ .  The persecution is even more severe in Pakistan.

I find it a much better way to treat female general officers of the LDS faith by referring to them the same way we refer to male general officers of the Church -- by their actual titles.  In this instance, since she is the President of the Church Relief Society, we should refer to her as "President Burton."  We simply do not show enough respect to female leaders, even though they are often far more effective than the men.

I agree with most of your assertions Robert,  there is a stark difference between 3rd world problems and the challenges faced by these members in them and with those who have lost faith and are challenged to find support living in Utah.  but that is not what my OP was concerning.  It was a call to all of us living here in Utah (I believe you don't) to celebrate and support those who are unlike the majority living in Utah.  I am aware of so many personal sacrifices made by those who leave the church here in Utah, the loss of family relationships, marriages, having to hide their true selves from those around them, faking it as if they were still Mormon due to job requirement etc.  While I don't expect you to fully appreciate their personal challenges and sacrifices...I wanted to point out that while it is wonderful to celebrate those who face these challenges in 3rd world countries and perhaps even more...lets not forget those here at home who face their own unique set of challenges because of the Mormon culture in Utah.

With respect to Sister Burton, forgive me, I could not remember her full title and I tried to be respectful but I just am somewhat removed from the church and not up to date on her calling.  So that's on me...it was not intended as an attempt to be disrespectful  

[stemelbow]

I'm kind of with others when the term authentic life is used.  I'm not sure what that means and how that's supposed to be contrasted with something else.  Everyone's life is their own.  To call one an authentic life as if another's is not, seems weird to me. 

But I will add on this topic, I'd say God has His own designs for individuals and I would suggest He knows some are better off outside of the Church.  He either wants people outside doing good work to help His greater designs, after all the Church is just one of many good to semi-good forces out there, or He knows some just plain suffer and struggle in the legalistic Church and He wants the best for them and to prosper (not in the financial way necessarily).  We should respect that and celebrate it as Church members.  We should encourage others and not hold them down by judging them for that which may be God working in their lives, as they say (another concept that I struggle with understanding, but I use here because I don't know how else to say it).

 

[MormonVideoGame]

15 hours ago, Rain said:

Those who have been given more have expected more of them. 

So members that have an easier life need to go to church twice a week? Fast for more hours? Read the scriptures more?  Pay 20% of tithing? Please clarify what you mean.

People in some countries have to walk about two hours to get to church and sometimes their ward in threaten by the cartels.Some members live in extreme poverty, and can barely feed their children, but still pay 10% of tithing. That is why I keep saying that the path to the celestial kingdom is easier for some, especially if you live in Utah. 

In Utah you simply walk for 2 minutes to get to church. You will go to the celestial kingdom just as long as you don't have sex outside marriage and pay 10% of tithing. 

15 hours ago, Rain said:

We each have our own unique circumstances. You could live next door, but that doesn't meam

I was speaking in General. Life in Utah tends to be easier.  Like the Nehor said, "a danger to religious liberty in the United States does not contain an implicit or explicit comparison suggesting that religious freedom in the United States is in a worse state then that of, say, North Korea." 

 

Edited March 27, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Maestrophil]

I say consider the audience.  If sister Burton were speaking to a secular crowd at a secular event on the topic of integrity or authenticity, then I am sure it would be appropriate for her to give recognition to all who strive to live honestly and abide by their principles.

However, her audience was (supposedly) faithful LDS women.  The goal of the meeting was to extoll the virtues of these pioneering LDS women.  If someone feels that other people's beliefs - or indeed lack of belief - should be celebrated or even mentioned at such an event, that strikes me at being ignorant of the purpose of the meeting.

Did I miss something?

[Storm Rider]

13 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Your argument presupposes that living a so called Mormon standard is superior or requires a greater sacrifice than someone who is a former believer, living in Utah who chooses not to live that so called standard...I reject your premise 

ive posted in the past of this silent notion of superiority that sometimes exists among believers...I sense this in your post.  Are my observations warranted or am I misreading your post?

Yes and no - it is without question that living a life in accordance with the gospel of Jesus Christ produces individuals of integrity, righteousness, and holiness.  I reject your premise that it is solely a this perception is somehow limited to the LDS Church and its members.  It belongs to all those who follow the gopsel of Christ diligently.  When you exclude all religions and their teachings who are left with the unknown.  Describe the doctrines and teachings of the atheist?  Where is a uniform list of beliefs or moral teachings?  

I think you limit any input from LDS because your perceptions are so slanted you leave no room for learning or a new perception from any LDS regardless of what they say or do.  

Simply being a rebel does not bestow nobility, righteousness, or even difficulty.  The rebel senses freedom - a new easiness of life - (s)he is not bound by any moral standard.  How is the a better way of life?  How does it produce a stable society?  History would say that it doesn't and never has.  The easy path always leads down - it is a lesson we too quickly forget in the pursuit of self-gratification. 

[SeekerB]

Perhaps many feel that those who leave the church have lost a treasure instead of making a sacrifice.

[rodheadlee]

17 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

During last nights general women's session, Sister Linda Burton said: 

“On my recent assignment to Asia...I was particularly impressed with first-generation members in India, Malaysia, and Indonesia, who strive to live the gospel culture in their own homes, sometimes at great sacrifice as gospel living often clashes with family and country cultures."

While I think it's great to celebrate the sacrifices made by those living LDS standards when they are in the minority...it made me wonder if we should not also be celebrating the sacrifices made by former believers who find themselves in a similar situation Living as minorities in Utah .  These individuals find themselves as a minority, they must often make great sacrifices while  attempting to live authenticly even when doing so clashes with the majority Mormon culture here in Utah. Does this philosophy also apply to these people as well or does it only apply to Mormons?

To be clear...I am not asking Sister Burton as a woman representative of the LDS church to celebrate former believers...I think that would be taking it a bit far.  I am merely asking in a general sense if we as fellow human beings should find room to celebrate all individuals who are required to make sacrifices to live their lives authenticity...wherever we might find them. 

It's a free country you can celebrate your life anyway you want. Just don't expect everyone else to celebrate with you.