Is Celebrating Living an Authentic Life a One Way Street?

[Johnnie Cake]

During last nights general women's session, Sister Linda Burton said: 

“On my recent assignment to Asia...I was particularly impressed with first-generation members in India, Malaysia, and Indonesia, who strive to live the gospel culture in their own homes, sometimes at great sacrifice as gospel living often clashes with family and country cultures."

While I think it's great to celebrate the sacrifices made by those living LDS standards when they are in the minority...it made me wonder if we should not also be celebrating the sacrifices made by former believers who find themselves in a similar situation Living as minorities in Utah .  These individuals find themselves as a minority, they must often make great sacrifices while  attempting to live authenticly even when doing so clashes with the majority Mormon culture here in Utah. Does this philosophy also apply to these people as well or does it only apply to Mormons?

To be clear...I am not asking Sister Burton as a woman representative of the LDS church to celebrate former believers...I think that would be taking it a bit far.  I am merely asking in a general sense if we as fellow human beings should find room to celebrate all individuals who are required to make sacrifices to live their lives authenticity...wherever we might find them. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[juliann]

Un freakin believable. You are really going to compare first world Utah problems with a woman's attempt to live the gospel in these female friendly countries? REALLY?

Can we not assign this to the biggest problem of all? I have yet to try to have a conversation with men about the hurdles created for women in the church when they know they will never have the opportunity to get beyond "counseling" or "advising" without a man jumping in to say "But look at me! I was treated badly by a male leader, too!," 

[Johnnie Cake]

3 hours ago, juliann said:

Un freakin believable. You are really going to compare first world Utah problems with a woman's attempt to live the gospel in these female friendly countries? REALLY?

Can we not assign this to the biggest problem of all? I have yet to try to have a conversation with men about the hurdles created for women in the church when they know they will never have the opportunity to get beyond "counseling" or "advising" without a man jumping in to say "But look at me! I was treated badly by a male leader, too!," 

So your saying no, we shouldn't extend this courtesy to former believers?

Edited March 27, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[MormonVideoGame]

23 minutes ago, juliann said:

Un freakin believable. You are really going to compare first world Utah problems with a woman's attempt to live the gospel in these female friendly countries? REALLY?" 

Why is it easier for women in Utah to achieve exaltation? Life is hard in other countries, and that is a reason why many stop going to church. How is that fair? 

[MormonVideoGame]

58 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

 These individuals find themselves as a minority, they must often make great sacrifices while  attempting to live authenticly even when doing so clashes with the majority Mormon culture here in Utah. Does this philosophy also apply to these people as well or does it only to Mormons?

Many here told me that faith is a choice, and lacking faith is my fault.  

Edited March 26, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Rain]

12 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Why is it easier for women in Utah to achieve exaltation?

Rain: It is not. The Lord knows all circumstances. The Lord doesn't judge people in other countries my the circumstances of people in Utah and vice versa. We all get judged by our own circumstances and actions.

 MVG: Life is hard in other countries, and that is a reason why many stop going to church. How is that fair? 

It is fair because we are judged on our own circumstances and actions.

[The Nehor]

What does living authentically even mean? I have heard it used to mean responsible living, unchecked hedonism, nihilism, and everything in between and beyond. It seems to be a rhetorical term without meaning that is supposed to render the user immune to attack because disagreement is seen as encouragement of inauthentic living.

I also find it adorable that Johnnie Cake is seriously suggesting that Utah non-LDS people are somehow the truly persecuted amongst us.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

During last nights general women's session, Sister Linda Burton said: 

“On my recent assignment to Asia...I was particularly impressed with first-generation members in India, Malaysia, and Indonesia, who strive to live the gospel culture in their own homes, sometimes at great sacrifice as gospel living often clashes with family and country cultures."

While I think it's great to celebrate the sacrifices made by those living LDS standards when they are in the minority...it made me wonder if we should not also be celebrating the sacrifices made by former believers who find themselves in a similar situation Living as minorities in Utah .  These individuals find themselves as a minority, they must often make great sacrifices while  attempting to live authenticly even when doing so clashes with the majority Mormon culture here in Utah. Does this philosophy also apply to these people as well or does it only to Mormons?

To be clear...I am not asking Sister Burton as a woman representative of the LDS church to celebrate former believers...I think that would be taking it a bit far.  I am merely asking in a general sense if we as fellow human beings should find room to celebrate all individuals who are required to make sacrifices to live their lives authenticity...wherever we might find them. 

This is not clear to me. Please explain more of what you are asking.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I am merely asking in a general sense if we as fellow human beings should find room to celebrate all individuals who are required to make sacrifices to live their lives authenticity...wherever we might find them. 

I think it is better to love than to understand, and better to understand than to celebrate. Love may lead to understanding and understanding to celebration, but each state is increasingly more conditional than the former. And the more specifically and uniquely one wishes to be celebrated as an exception or a minority, there goes the generality of the principle and the more unreasonable his expectation becomes. So I think we need to find room to love and understand, and then if called for, room to celebrate for a particular reason that reflects how that person benefits the whole community.

[MormonVideoGame]

13 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I also find it adorable that Johnnie Cake is seriously suggesting that Utah non-LDS people are somehow the truly persecuted amongst us.

 "My remarks this evening are about America’s great heritage of religious liberty...Religious freedom is indeed under attack" - Elder Christofferson

You find that adorable too? 

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, MormonVideoGame said:

 "My remarks this evening are about America’s great heritage of religious liberty...Religious freedom is indeed under attack" - Elder Christofferson

You find that adorable too? 

No, because claiming that there is a danger to religious liberty in the United States does not contain an implicit or explicit comparison suggesting that religious freedom in the United States is in a worse state then that of, say, North Korea.

[MormonVideoGame]

22 minutes ago, Rain said:

It is fair because we are judged on our own circumstances and actions.

but the path to the celestial kingdom is easier for some.Your idea works if you believe that God requires more from LDS utahns?   Do LDS utahns need to do more? Is there any evidence that they do more? 

Edited March 26, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[MormonVideoGame]

15 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No, because claiming that there is a danger to religious liberty in the United States does not contain an implicit or explicit comparison suggesting that religious freedom in the United States is in a worse state then that of, say, North Korea.

 Johnnie Cake didn't say life for former LDS in Utah is worst than life for minorities in Indonesia. 

Of course life in certain countries is much harder, but it doesn't mean the USA is heaven. 

double standard? 

Edited March 26, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, MormonVideoGame said:

 Johnnie Cake didn't say life for former LDS in Utah is worst than life for minorities in Indonesia. 

double standard? 

No, not worse but he did implicitly imply that they are equally deserving of praise for their bold and principled stances against equally disadvantageous situations. You see, he almost certainly is or was one of those brave former LDS and wants to at least tie for the gold in his private persecution Olympics. If he finds the culture that difficult to cope with one would wonder why when he could cross the state line to the west, south, or east and leave this oppressive culture forever and be able to 'live authentically' without the stultifying oppression of LDS that the poor persecuted man does not avail himself of this glorious escape.

[Rain]

2 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

but the path to the celestial kingdom is easier for some.Your idea works if you believe that God requires more from LDS utahns?   Do LDS utahns need to do more? Is there any evidence that they do more? 

The path is not easier for some. Those who have been given more have expected more of them. 

YOU were the one that mentioned LDS Utahns. My belief is that it doesn't matter if someone is an LDS in Utah or non LDS living in China. We each have our own unique circumstances. You could live next door, but that doesn't mean things are the same for both of us. 

It seems you assume I think LDS Utahns have been given more? I don't. Given more doesn't just include a knowledge of the gospel. It requires an understanding of it. Given more also applies to our family circumstances. Our mental capacity. The amount of money we have. Whether we have been assaulted. The list goes on and on. 

 

 

[Bobbieaware]

On 3/26/2017 at 5:36 PM, Johnnie Cake said:

During last nights general women's session, Sister Linda Burton said: 

“On my recent assignment to Asia...I was particularly impressed with first-generation members in India, Malaysia, and Indonesia, who strive to live the gospel culture in their own homes, sometimes at great sacrifice as gospel living often clashes with family and country cultures."

While I think it's great to celebrate the sacrifices made by those living LDS standards when they are in the minority...it made me wonder if we should not also be celebrating the sacrifices made by former believers who find themselves in a similar situation Living as minorities in Utah .  These individuals find themselves as a minority, they must often make great sacrifices while  attempting to live authenticly even when doing so clashes with the majority Mormon culture here in Utah. Does this philosophy also apply to these people as well or does it only to Mormons?

To be clear...I am not asking Sister Burton as a woman representative of the LDS church to celebrate former believers...I think that would be taking it a bit far.  I am merely asking in a general sense if we as fellow human beings should find room to celebrate all individuals who are required to make sacrifices to live their lives authenticity...wherever we might find them. 

Come to think of it, former believers do deserve genuine compassion and heartfelt gratitude (outright celebration is going too far) from those who continue to feast upon the fruit of the tree of life because they play an indispensable role in the process of eternal progression. You see, in order for there to be tests of faith of sufficient challenge to move the process of individual spiritual progression forward, "there must needs be opposition in all things" from those who stand at the windows of the great and spacious building. Former believers help to create the essential storms of adversity needed to dearly try the saints to determine if they will hold fast to the truth no matter what sore trials may descend upon them. Then, after the former believers play their essential role, the vast majority of them will return to the faith (think Alma the younger), all the wiser and fervent in belief because of the things they learned while on the other side.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

What does living authentically even mean? I have heard it used to mean responsible living, unchecked hedonism, nihilism, and everything in between and beyond. It seems to be a rhetorical term without meaning that is supposed to render the user immune to attack because disagreement is seen as encouragement of inauthentic living.

I also find it adorable that Johnnie Cake is seriously suggesting that Utah non-LDS people are somehow the truly persecuted amongst us.

Reread my op Nehor...you've completely missed the point

[bluebell]

I can appreciate that it is usually not easy for previously active members to leave the LDS church.  I can wish them well and remain friends where applicable.  Beyond that, i'm not sure what else i can do, in terms of acknowledging that the consequences of their choices are sometimes uncomfortable and cause them pain.

[The Nehor]

11 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Reread my op Nehor...you've completely missed the point

I think the more likely scenario is that we disagree about whether there was a valid point.

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

This is not clear to me. Please explain more of what you are asking.

Tolerance and appreciation for everyone irrespective of faith, religion or non religion status. Accepting people for who they are and not as you wish they were...appreciating at yes even former member make great sacrifices at home and with friends and family to achieve authenticity in their life.

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

No, not worse but he did implicitly imply that they are equally deserving of praise for their bold and principled stances against equally disadvantageous situations. You see, he almost certainly is or was one of those brave former LDS and wants to at least tie for the gold in his private persecution Olympics. If he finds the culture that difficult to cope with one would wonder why when he could cross the state line to the west, south, or east and leave this oppressive culture forever and be able to 'live authentically' without the stultifying oppression of LDS that the poor persecuted man does not avail himself of this glorious escape.

Thanks for your compassionate response... if you don't love it ...get out...  why not instead just accept your former believing friends and neighbors instead of "othering" them?

Edited March 27, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Johnnie Cake]

46 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

Come to think of it, former believers do deserve genuine compassion and heartfelt gratitude (outright celebration is going to far) from those who continue to feast upon the fruit of the tree of life because they play an indispensable role in the process of eternal progression. You see, in order for there to be tests of faith of sufficient challenge to move the process of individual spiritual progression forward, "there must needs be opposition in all things" from those who stand at the windows of the great and spacious building. Former believers help to create the essential storms of adversity needed to dearly try the saints to determine if they will hold fast to the truth no matter what sore trials may descend upon them. Then, after the former believers play their essential role, the vast majority of them will return to the faith (think Alma the younger), all the wiser and fervent in belief because of the things they learned while on the other side.

I'm curious why we can't just agree that we should all try to appreciate the various sacrifices each of us make for our respective beliefs?  Why cast it in some ulterior manner? Why can't the message just stand on its own merits?

[Johnnie Cake]

33 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I can appreciate that it is usually not easy for previously active members to leave the LDS church.  I can wish them well and remain friends where applicable.  Beyond that, i'm not sure what else i can do, in terms of acknowledging that the consequences of their choices are sometimes uncomfortable and cause them pain.

I think that is all I'm asking...any of us to do...reach out and love someone who does not share your beliefs and appreciate their personal sacrifices 

[Johnnie Cake]

is the divide between us so wide that we can't even agree that we each deserve to be appreciated for who we are?  In my OP I purposely said that I thought it was great that the women referred to in Burtons talk received respect and that their sacrifices be celebrated.  But I must admit that with the exception of bluebell other board posters do not feel that those who have chosen to leave Mormonism do deserve this same respect and celebration for their convictions. Kinda disappointed actually 

Edited March 27, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[The Nehor]

23 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Thanks for your compassionate response... if you don't love it ...get out...  why not instead just accept your former believing friends and neighbors instead of "othering" them?

Oh, I do. Many of the friends I see are ex or inactive Mormons and I love them. Of course they are also not insufferable gits about leaving. In fact your need to distinguish the difference between those who leave and those who stay is more effective at "othering" then anything I have said. It is a common refrain: "Treat me just like everyone else while I yell loudly about how different I am please!"

Edited March 28, 2017 by The Nehor