Is Celebrating Living an Authentic Life a One Way Street?

[pogi]

17 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

So your saying no, we shouldn't extend this courtesy to former believers?

Seeking an authentic life is commendable.  But that doesn't mean that we should celebrate our children's sexual promiscuity, experimental drug use, and otherwise destructive behavior in the name of an "authentic life". 

When you recognize that behavior in others is contrary to the "authentic life" of a child of God, then it is hard to celebrate.  

[Jeanne]

Just now, pogi said:

Seeking an authentic life is commendable.  But that doesn't mean that we should celebrate our children's sexual promiscuity, experimental drug use, and otherwise destructive behavior in the name of an "authentic life". 

When you recognize that behavior in others is contrary to the "authentic life" of a child of God, then it is hard to celebrate.  

I hate to tell you this..but a lot of ex mormons don't advocate sex..use drugs..or have big destructive behaviors in our authentic lives.

[pogi]

Just now, Jeanne said:

I hate to tell you this..but a lot of ex mormons don't advocate sex..use drugs..or have big destructive behaviors in our authentic lives.

Don't worry, this is not a revelation me.  There was no accusation or assumption in my post. 

I was simply demonstrating how seeking an authentic life is not grounds for universal celebration. 

[Rain]

1 hour ago, MormonVideoGame said:

So members that have an easier life need to go to church twice a week?

I didn't say anything about members. You keep talking about members. I also don't feel that just because you are a member you have an easier life. What I am saying is that to some God gives more physical health, intelligence, mental health, emotional health, spiritual knowledge etc. Also some people have more because of their curcumstances. More money. More opportunities. More support. Some have more trials like being abused or being raped. Some have close family members die when they are young. "More" encompasses a whole lot more than being raised in an LDS home.

Fast for more hours? Read the scriptures more?  Pay 20% of tithing? Please clarify what you mean.

Very individual. If you are an LDS Utahns, have a lot of flexible time, you have a knowledge and testimony of the scriptures and you are able to read then it stands to reason that the Lord MAY expect more scripture reading of you then if you are an LDS Utahn, that is barely keeping his family fed on his income by working long hours, isn't able to read and struggles to get a testimony of them. 

 

People in some countries have to walk about two hours to get to church and sometimes their ward in threaten by the cartels.Some members live in extreme poverty, and can barely feed their children, but still pay 10% of tithing. That is why I keep saying that the path to the celestial kingdom is easier for some, especially if you live in Utah. 

In Utah you simply walk for 2 minutes to get to church. You will go to the celestial kingdom just as long as you don't have sex outside marriage and pay 10% of tithing. 

The Celestial Kingdom has very little to do with a list of things one has to do to get there. The only things I am aware of that are on any sort of list are ordinances and we know that those ordinances can be done by proxy for those who didn't have them in this life. 

Getting to the Celestial Kingdom has more to do with how you TRY to become more like God.

I have one child who thinks very deeply, but school learning comes slow. She studies a lot. This is important to her so she arises early to study. I have another child that likes to just have fun, but he has quicker thinking. If he wanted to set his mind to it at all He would get As easily. That C my daughter might get in one class would mean a whole lot more to me than that B my son got because it would mean that my daughter did her best and my son did less then his best.

People don't get to the Celestial Kingdom because they paid their tithing and had 100% attendance at church. People get there because they tried their best.

And just in case any evangilist starts wiggling out about this it is ALL because of the grace of Jesus. Without him no one makes it there. 

I was speaking in General. Life in Utah tends to be easier.  Like the Nehor said, "a danger to religious liberty in the United States does not contain an implicit or explicit comparison suggesting that religious freedom in the United States is in a worse state then that of, say, North Korea." 

 

Now I will somewhat go with the idea that life in Utah is easier than life in a small, cartel controlled town, but that has nothing to do with making it to the Celestial Kingdom.

I say somewhat because I have 3 nieces who were abused as children. One was killed in front of her sister. One was starved nearly to death. One was taught some awful things. Luckily, they were adopted by my BIL and taught well after that, but the physical, emotional, mental and spiritual toll of that abuse is still very much in their lives. Perhaps the surviving sisters have it easier than some of the people you mention, but perhaps their private hell is worse. I'm grateful that God is judging their hearts and efforts and not me.

 

Edited March 27, 2017 by Rain

[MormonVideoGame]

23 minutes ago, Rain said:

I also don't feel that just because you are a member you have an easier life.

that is not what I said. I said LDS members in Utah tend to have an easier life than LDS members in the Kongo, cartel controlled towns in Mexico, and other countries. With an easier life it is easier to pay 10%, go to church, and even avoid sin. 

Quote

If you are an LDS Utahns, have a lot of flexible time, you have a knowledge and testimony of the scriptures and you are able to read then it stands to reason that the Lord MAY expect more scripture reading 

I remember EFY teaching that at least one verse a day is good enough. 

Quote

LDS Utahn, that is barely keeping his family fed on his income by working long hours, isn't able to read and struggles to get a testimony of them

Some families in extreme poverty do pay 10%.

Quote

People don't get to the Celestial Kingdom because they paid their tithing and had 100% attendance at church. People get there because they tried their best.

but humans don't tend to try their best, I always hear people say "I was capable of doing better". Preach my gospel says we "will be rewarded according to our works and our desires". 

As long as you are Temple worthy you will go to the Celestial Kingdom.  Does it make any sense that you are allowed to enter the Temple, but not heaven?  

23 minutes ago, Rain said:

Now I will somewhat go with the idea that life in Utah is easier than life in a small, cartel controlled town, but that has nothing to do with making it to the Celestial Kingdom.

It is easier to go to the Temple in a town not controlled by the cartel and corrupt police officers. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

Yes and no - it is without question that living a life in accordance with the gospel of Jesus Christ produces individuals of integrity, righteousness, and holiness.  I reject your premise that it is solely a this perception is somehow limited to the LDS Church and its members.  It belongs to all those who follow the gopsel of Christ diligently.  When you exclude all religions and their teachings who are left with the unknown.  Describe the doctrines and teachings of the atheist?  Where is a uniform list of beliefs or moral teachings?  

The happiest people in the world are those that live in secular societies...once again you presuppose that religion is necessary for happiness...and this is just not true 

 

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

I think you limit any input from LDS because your perceptions are so slanted you leave no room for learning or a new perception from any LDS regardless of what they say or do.  

You for get that I was once an active believing member of the church...I've been on both sides of the fence

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

Simply being a rebel does not bestow nobility, righteousness, or even difficulty.  The rebel senses freedom - a new easiness of life - (s)he is not bound by any moral standard.  How is the a better way of life?  How does it produce a stable society?  History would say that it doesn't and never has.  The easy path always leads down - it is a lesson we too quickly forget in the pursuit of self-gratification. 

So many false assumptions here on your part.  Why do you equate non-belief in Mormonism with being a rebel, self gratification or contributing to an unstable society.?  None of these biased assumptions bare out in secular societies...and HISTORY bares out that secular societies are the happiest societies...in fact the happiest societies on earth...so once again you are just way off base in your assumptions

 

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Seeking an authentic life is commendable.  But that doesn't mean that we should celebrate our children's sexual promiscuity, experimental drug use, and otherwise destructive behavior in the name of an "authentic life". 

When you recognize that behavior in others is contrary to the "authentic life" of a child of God, then it is hard to celebrate.  

Geez...I get so tired of these false stereotypical strawmen assumptions that believers keep throwing out...no one is suggesting any illegal activity...such as drug use...or advocating destructive behavior which affect both the religious and the non religious...so drop the false assumptions please.

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

It's a free country you can celebrate your life anyway you want. Just don't expect everyone else to celebrate with you.

Which is exactly why I made this post...because of attitudes like yours.  What, please tell, is wrong with truly loving your neighbor...especially if that neighbor is a former believer.  Is it asking so much for a people who claim to be followers of Christ to be Christ-like? 

[pogi]

1 minute ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Geez...I get so tired of these false stereotypical strawmen assumptions that believers keep throwing out...no one is suggesting any illegal activity...such as drug use...or advocating destructive behavior which affect both the religious and the non religious...so drop the false assumptions please.

Please see my response to Jeanne.  You misunderstood my post.

I am responding to the question you posed whether we should universally celebrate those who are seeking an authentic life.  When one perceives another's direction as misguided or destructive to their true authentic self as a literal child of God, it is not so easy to celebrate.

I was not making any assumptions, I was simply giving an easy example that we could all recognize and agree on.  You made an absolute statement, and I simply offered an example of an exception.  The point being that celebration is not always an appropriate response. 

[Rain]

10 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

that is not what I said. I said LDS members in Utah tend to have an easier life than LDS members in the Kongo, cartel controlled towns in Mexico, and other countries. With an easier life it is easier to pay 10%, go to church, and even avoid sin. 

No, you said, "People in some countries have to walk about two hours to get to church and sometimes their ward in threaten by the cartels.Some members live in extreme poverty, and can barely feed their children, but still pay 10% of tithing. That is why I keep saying that the path to the celestial kingdom is easier for some, especially if you live in Utah. "

I'm saying that entrance to the Celestial Kingdom does NOT depend on a list of requirements you do. It depends on what you do with what you have. 

10 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

I remember EFY teaching that at least one verse a day is good enough. 

Ok?

What I've always heard with the one verse thing is that one should try to get one verse in if they are reading nothing.  That is better than getting none, but I've never heard it was "good enough" for everyone. In fact the scriptures say we should feast on them. 

And here is where it all comes very individual. There are some that can feast on one verse. Others may read an entire book and feel like they had a light snack. 

Either way there is no list that says, "well he got one verse a day so he is Celestial Kingdom worthy where scripture reading is concerned."

10 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Some families in extreme poverty do pay 10%.

Good.  What are you trying to say here?

10 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

but humans don't tend to try their best, I always hear people say "I was capable of doing better". Preach my gospel says we "will be rewarded according to our works and our desires". 

Just tried to find it there because it is worded similar in The Living Christ. I didn't find it, but it doesn't matter because I agree that this is our teaching. King Benjamin also says something similar when he talks about giving, especially those in poor circumstances who feel if they had they would give.

In skimming I did find this: All that is unfair about life can be made right through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Which is the whole point I have been trying to make. LDS Utahns do not have an easier time getting to the Celestial Kingdom because the atonement makes our circumstances fair and right. 

Trying our best is poor communication on my part. I'm unable to share in a nutshell what I mean by, but I can refer you to Brad Wilcox's talk on grace that explains it: BYU speeches

10 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

As long as you are Temple worthy you will go to the Celestial Kingdom.  Does it make any sense that you are allowed to enter the Temple, but not heaven?  

It is easier to go to the Temple in a town not controlled by the cartel and corrupt police officers. 

Yes, it is easier to go to the Temple if I live next door as well. What does that have to do with if you will go to the Celestial Kingdom? If I can't get to the temple because I live in a cartel controlled town then the atonement takes care of it. 

[Rain]

32 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Which is exactly why I made this post...because of attitudes like yours.  What, please tell, is wrong with truly loving your neighbor...especially if that neighbor is a former believer.  Is it asking so much for a people who claim to be followers of Christ to be Christ-like? 

There are two different things going on.  NO one feels it is asking too much to love former members.

Loving former members is different than celebrating the lifestyle of every former member.

In Utah I had a neighbor that while she didn't resign from the church, didn't consider herself a member. It's possible she was even baptized in the church she was active in.  I got along with her well.  We had a lot of similar interests. She pulled through and helped me in a tough situation. She is a good, kind, giving woman. I appreciate and love her for that.

That doesn't mean I should celebrate that she left the church. 

[MormonVideoGame]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

. It depends on what you do with what you have. 

the church still requires poor members to pay 10%, go to church, and chastity to have a temple recommend. 

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Yes, it is easier to go to the Temple if I live next door as well. What does that have to do with if you will go to the Celestial Kingdom? If I can't get to the temple because I live in a cartel controlled town then the atonement takes care of it. 

Again, if you are temple worthy it means you are also worthy for the Celestial kingdom. It is tougher to be temple worthy in some parts of the world. It is easier to be temple worthy in other parts of the world. 

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Good.  What are you trying to say here?

That is is easier for some to pay 10%, and it is harder for others to pay 10%. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Storm Rider]

5 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

The happiest people in the world are those that live in secular societies...once again you presuppose that religion is necessary for happiness...and this is just not true 

   CFR - what source for that statement.  This is called an assumption on your part and demonstrates a very slanted, negative POV against all religious societies that have ever existed on earth.  Who is "presupposing" something in reality?

You for get that I was once an active believing member of the church...I've been on both sides of the fence

So many false assumptions here on your part.  Why do you equate non-belief in Mormonism with being a rebel, self gratification or contributing to an unstable society.?  None of these biased assumptions bare out in secular societies...and HISTORY bares out that secular societies are the happiest societies...in fact the happiest societies on earth...so once again you are just way off base in your assumptions

 

The only one making assuption is you.  No where did I say that non-belief in Mormonism is being a rebel.  You have created a red herring argument and it is rejected in toto.  Now show me a society of rebels that remained in a rebellious state that produced a long term stable society - I can help; it has never existed.  It is known as anarchy.  Put up the sources or admit you are creating your position out of whole cloth.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Storm Rider

[Rain]

16 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

the church still requires poor members to pay 10%, go to church, and chastity to have a temple recommend. 

Again, if you are temple worthy it means you are also worthy for the Celestial kingdom. It is tougher to be temple worthy in some parts of the world. It is easier to be temple worthy in other parts of the world. 

That is is easier for some to pay 10%, and it is harder for others to pay 10%. 

The church is the Lord's tool to teach his children. So the church will teach you things that will help you become more like Him. That doesn't mean you must do every single thing to be in the Celestial Kingdom. The Lord judges on what you do with what you have. Being a non temple worthy person does not mean you are a non Celestial Kingdom person. Remember, the atonement takes EVERYTHING into account. 

Honestly, I am not sure that being temple worthy would definitely make you Celestial worthy. A reactive answer says that is true, but I keep going back and forth on that. Do you have any quote to back that up?

How about the rich young man. He told Christ all the things he was doing (temple worthy). The Lord asked him to sell what he had and follow him. At this point the young man chose not to do it which leads me to believe that you could be worthy to go to the temple, but not ultimately ready for the Celestial kingdom.

So if it is easier for some to pay tithing then the Lord takes that in account when he judges. If it is harder than the Lord takes that into account when he judges. 

 

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I agree with most of your assertions Robert,  there is a stark difference between 3rd world problems and the challenges faced by these members in them and with those who have lost faith and are challenged to find support living in Utah.  but that is not what my OP was concerning.  It was a call to all of us living here in Utah (I believe you don't) to celebrate and support those who are unlike the majority living in Utah.  I am aware of so many personal sacrifices made by those who leave the church here in Utah, the loss of family relationships, marriages, having to hide their true selves from those around them, faking it as if they were still Mormon due to job requirement etc.  While I don't expect you to fully appreciate their personal challenges and sacrifices...I wanted to point out that while it is wonderful to celebrate those who face these challenges in 3rd world countries and perhaps even more...lets not forget those here at home who face their own unique set of challenges because of the Mormon culture in Utah.

My point was that in Utah such minorities are very well treated, and much better than such minorities are treated in other states of the USA.  I do hear complaints at times about mistreatment of apostates, but just don't have neighbors or friends who think that way, nor do the local or General Authorities take that view.  Quite the opposite.  Take the activist apostates Jerald & Sandra Tanner in SLC, for instance.  There were no drive-by shootings, no burning crosses in their front yard, and they were able to operate their publishing business for decades with no interference or catcalling.  Indeed, they always had a table at MHA and Sunstone, and were cordially received.  I even attended their church meetings with them.

Naturally, each family situation will vary, some faithful family members perhaps worried that such internal apostasy might be communicable.  As in a divorce, there are likely to be hard feelings and even fear.  To suggest, however, that this is a Church-wide problem is overstating matters.

Quote

With respect to Sister Burton, forgive me, I could not remember her full title and I tried to be respectful but I just am somewhat removed from the church and not up to date on her calling.  So that's on me...it was not intended as an attempt to be disrespectful  

That's "President Burton," Johnnie.  Dig?

Edited March 27, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

[Hamba Tuhan]

Celebrating the authentic life:

Edited March 28, 2017 by Hamba Tuhan

[Johnnie Cake]

3 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

The only one making assuption is you.  No where did I say that non-belief in Mormonism is being a rebel.  You have created a red herring argument and it is rejected in toto.  Now show me a society of rebels that remained in a rebellious state that produced a long term stable society - I can help; it has never existed.  It is known as anarchy.  Put up the sources or admit you are creating your position out of whole cloth.

here's your silly CFR   http://worldhappiness.report/  its a report made to the United nations...the happiest nations are all secular... surprised you're not aware of this actually

[Johnnie Cake]

 

This will be my last post on MD&D for a few weeks, as promised I’m taking a break from MD&D.  Thank you for allowing me to enjoy your wit and wisdom.  While we rarely find areas of agreement, it does not mean that you have not impacted my life in a positive manner.  Believe it or not there are some things that I miss about the Mormon Church…I just don’t miss them enough to overcome my doubts in its truth claims…but that’s a discussion for another day. Thanks again for your patience and tolerance of my posts…I mean it when I say they come from an honest place and are not intended to offend or poke a sick in your eye…although I am aware that that is exactly how many view them.  Any way enjoy the peace and quiet break from having me to kick around.

Cheers

Craig

AKA Johnnie Cake

 

 

Edited March 27, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

So members that have an easier life need to go to church twice a week? Fast for more hours? Read the scriptures more?  Pay 20% of tithing? Please clarify what you mean.

People in some countries have to walk about two hours to get to church and sometimes their ward in threaten by the cartels.Some members live in extreme poverty, and can barely feed their children, but still pay 10% of tithing. That is why I keep saying that the path to the celestial kingdom is easier for some, especially if you live in Utah. 

In Utah you simply walk for 2 minutes to get to church. You will go to the celestial kingdom just as long as you don't have sex outside marriage and pay 10% of tithing. 

I was speaking in General. Life in Utah tends to be easier.  Like the Nehor said, "a danger to religious liberty in the United States does not contain an implicit or explicit comparison suggesting that religious freedom in the United States is in a worse state then that of, say, North Korea." 

 

Wow, who knew the path to exaltation was limited to three hours a week, premarital sexual abstinence, and a small bribe to God? I am going to cancel my volunteer work, refuse all callings, stop going to the temple, start embezzling money from my employer, take up gambling, try this heroin stuff I keep hearing about, mourn that I wasted two years of my life on a mission, slander my enemies, and become a sociopath. I still get exaltation right?

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Celebrating the authentic life:

Right now I excuse myself for not being a lunatic trying to squeeze everything out of life by saying that if God wanted me that high strung he would have made me that way. If I were an existentialist atheist I would say that if the uncaring universe wanted me to squeeze everything out of life then blind chance should have made me that way.

Not seeing that much of a difference.  

[rodheadlee]

10 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Which is exactly why I made this post...because of attitudes like yours.  What, please tell, is wrong with truly loving your neighbor...especially if that neighbor is a former believer.  Is it asking so much for a people who claim to be followers of Christ to be Christ-like? 

You read too much into my words. I can love my neighbor without celebrating his or her lifestyle. Perhaps if you met me in person you would think I am more Christ-like than I appear on a BB. I am a very, very slow typist so all of my words are compacted down to the main point.

[The Nehor]

13 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I hate to tell you this..but a lot of ex mormons don't advocate sex..use drugs..or have big destructive behaviors in our authentic lives.

Next you will be telling me that people leave the church for reasons other then a desire to sin......  

[mrmarklin]

On 3/26/2017 at 2:36 PM, Johnnie Cake said:

During last nights general women's session, Sister Linda Burton said: 

“On my recent assignment to Asia...I was particularly impressed with first-generation members in India, Malaysia, and Indonesia, who strive to live the gospel culture in their own homes, sometimes at great sacrifice as gospel living often clashes with family and country cultures."

While I think it's great to celebrate the sacrifices made by those living LDS standards when they are in the minority...it made me wonder if we should not also be celebrating the sacrifices made by former believers who find themselves in a similar situation Living as minorities in Utah .  These individuals find themselves as a minority, they must often make great sacrifices while  attempting to live authenticly even when doing so clashes with the majority Mormon culture here in Utah. Does this philosophy also apply to these people as well or does it only apply to Mormons?

To be clear...I am not asking Sister Burton as a woman representative of the LDS church to celebrate former believers...I think that would be taking it a bit far.  I am merely asking in a general sense if we as fellow human beings should find room to celebrate all individuals who are required to make sacrifices to live their lives authenticity...wherever we might find them. 

You're such a troll. No, I won't bite. 

[Storm Rider]

16 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

here's your silly CFR   http://worldhappiness.report/  its a report made to the United nations...the happiest nations are all secular... surprised you're not aware of this actually

I thought you would go there; I am surprised that you have not read the significant criticism of that report and the reality of those "happy" nations when it comes to alcoholocism and the number of suicides. 

You know, Johnnie, you might want to learn more than just headlines and then jumping to conclusions.  Those Scandinavian countries suffer from a host of problems and their culture demands that they say they are happy.  The next time you have read a headline that gets you going on your favorite fad of bashing religions, I challenge you to dig deeper, study more.  You will quickly learn that it is not what you thought it was and that the headline was pretty silly.....more than just silly CFRs. 

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

I thought you would go there; I am surprised that you have not read the significant criticism of that report and the reality of those "happy" nations when it comes to alcoholocism and the number of suicides. 

You know, Johnnie, you might want to learn more than just headlines and then jumping to conclusions.  Those Scandinavian countries suffer from a host of problems and their culture demands that they say they are happy.  The next time you have read a headline that gets you going on your favorite fad of bashing religions, I challenge you to dig deeper, study more.  You will quickly learn that it is not what you thought it was and that the headline was pretty silly.....more than just silly CFRs. 

Friendly CFR on the parts I bolded. I think we have that in Mormon culture, in my experience. Just curious about that phenomenon elsewhere.