Man's Search for Happiness film content

[longview]

8 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

It's even more likely the verse in D&C 38 is speaking of the time of last resurrection and the ensuing final judgement

But you have not balanced your perspective with Rev 6.  The two references together strongly suggest the momentous events are occurring during the Second Coming.  Read D&C 88:87 thru 101.  It gives a good sequence of events that reinforces the two references above.  Here are verses 99-101:

 99 And after this another angel shall sound, which is the second trump; and then cometh the redemption of those who are Christ’s at his coming; who have received their part in that prison which is prepared for them, that they might receive the gospel, and be judged according to men in the flesh.
 100 And again, another trump shall sound, which is the third trump; and then come the spirits of men who are to be judged, and are found under condemnation;
 101 And these are the rest of the dead; and they live not again until the thousand years are ended, neither again, until the end of the earth.

[sunstoned]

10 hours ago, Ahab said:

Search for it, then. Instead of expecting me to do your homework for you.  I told you that I've read and heard statements from our Lord's prophets on this and you can take my statements for whatever they are worth to you.

And I won't take it as an insult if you feel you need to verify what I say from other witnesses, besides me.

You are the one that made the claim.  Okay, so hearsay then.

[Rain]

8 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I am deaf...will my spirit be able to hear? Or will I have to wait until I return to my body...this is something that means a lot to me.

I have nothing to back this up as far as quotes etc go. Only my own experience that makes me quite positive that your spirit will have the ability of hearing.  I experienced that kind of communication with my son when he was just weeks old as a preemie. The funny thing is that I think it slowed his physical speech in the years to come because he knew what it was like to speak spirit to spirit from that experience and didn't understand that most of the time people speak physically.  

The big key is as the scriptures say. We must let ourselves hear spiritually just as we have to let ourselves hear physically. Have you ever talked with someone and then realized you didn't has a word they were saying?  I've done it all too often.  I suspect it works that way spiritually as well.  

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

As soon as I read your post I thought "Ode, Intimations of Immortality."  Then I did the search.  Looks like he got quoted a few different times.  However, I don't think ol' William the Romantic had Mormonism in mind  It's a great poem! Here's the relevant part to the preexistence:

The ending is fantastic (I edited it a bit for brevity):

 

It was a major theme during the Romantic period, and after all that is what lead to/ caused Pragmatism and for that matter Phenomenology.

Joseph fit in perfectly with the American Romantics.  But the notion goes back at least to Plato and Pythagoras and was a very current one in ancient times- that all knowledge is a "forgetting" of the preexistence.   Astrology itself presupposes that the soul, while coming through the various spheres of the heavens were affected by the influence of the stars, planets etc on its way to earth.

My point in bringing up the Wordsworth quote was to show the many quotes and references to it that GA's have made through the years, since it was alleged that there was no basis in LDS writings for it- but I was too lazy to look it up for myself.

Thanks for the help- and yes it is a phenomenal poem!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anamnesis_(philosophy)

Edited March 15, 2017 by mfbukowski

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Between you and me, this is why it was important to teach correct doctrine.  I really thought that we would remember the pre-existence whether it made sense or not.  I am deaf...will my spirit be able to hear? Or will I have to wait until I return to my body...this is something that means a lot to me.

I do not know what senses spirits have but whatever they are you will have them all. They probably can hear in some way and you will be able to. At the resurrection the body will be perfected. It has been suggested by some that the perfection is immediate and by others that it becomes perfect over time. I am going with the words of a prophet that physical deficiencies will be healed immediately or so quickly afterwards that it might as well have been immediate.

[Calm]

"Astrology itself presupposes that the soul, while coming through the various spheres of the heavens were affected by the influence of the stars, planets etc on its way to earth."

oh!  Now that makes sense...or at least more than the usual explanation that somehow unimaginably distant stars have influence.  It would seem a number of astrologers don't know their own history of thought (had a friend who was an astrologer, plus did some studying of it due to some close ties to some mythologies so have several books on the subject on my shelves out of sentiment).

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

"Astrology itself presupposes that the soul, while coming through the various spheres of the heavens were affected by the influence of the stars, planets etc on its way to earth."

oh!  Now that makes sense...or at least more than the usual explanation that somehow unimaginably distant stars have influence.  It would seem a number of astrologers don't know their own history of thought (had a friend who was an astrologer, plus did some studying of it due to some close ties to some mythologies so have several books on the subject on my shelves out of sentiment).

Yep that's it

Ever see that horrible show where they drop a disc from the top of the box and it bounces around on it's way down and then you get money or nothing wherever it lands?

Every time I see that I think of astrology.

 

[MiserereNobis]

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Joseph fit in perfectly with the American Romantics. 

I realize he was contemporary with them, and being from New England would surely have been influenced by the Transcendentalists, but about his philosophy/theology is particularly Transcendental (American Romantic)?  I'm not saying he's not, I'm just trying to make the connections.  Since Emerson is the gold standard, let's use him.  Maybe the idea of subjective intuition could be linked to testimony (I'm thinking of the influence of Hume's skepticism on Emerson).  What about the "Oversoul" -- is that idea found in Smith?  Perhaps the LDS belief that we are the same type of being as God can be linked to the Transcendental Oversoul, since a piece of the Oversoul resides in all of us (and in everything, in fact).

Anyways, thanks for bringing up an interesting point.  I'll continue to ponder this as I have an affinity for the Transcendentalists due to my love of mysticism.

ETA: Let's all become transparent eyeballs!:

Quote

We return to reason and faith. There I feel that nothing can befall me in life, — no disgrace, no calamity, (leaving me my eyes,) which nature cannot repair. Standing on the bare ground, — my head bathed by the blithe air, and uplifted into infinite spaces, — all mean egotism vanishes. I become a transparent eye-ball; I am nothing; I see all; the currents of the Universal Being circulate through me; I am part or particle of God.

 

Edited March 15, 2017 by MiserereNobis

[CV75]

15 hours ago, juliann said:

We made a family trip twice. I remember the "future" exhibits the most. They had an electric toothbrush and I thought it was the dumbest thing ever. I also remember their future underground houses which were to be the next big thing.

What I really remember, though, is my dad coming to the car laughing because as he was leaving someone he was chatting with asked him if Mormons had horns (I believe they found out he was from Utah.)

These pictures brought back memories: https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2014/06/1964-the-new-york-worlds-fair/100749/

Wow--and all that was to happen by the year 2000!

From our 8th story apartment (of 14 stories, not too high, not too low) just across from the FDR Drive (Stuyvesant Town) we saw the dinosaurs on a barge going up the East River on their way to the Queens fair site. And I had recently seen "Godzilla" on Chiller Theater... what a thrill!

And it's a small world after all: my parents right around that time purchased a weekend/summer home "upstate" in the country near where the sculptor and his son designed the dinosaurs--the son had a home very close by to ours and my older siblings hung out with their kids.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Yep that's it

Ever see that horrible show where they drop a disc from the top of the box and it bounces around on it's way down and then you get money or nothing wherever it lands?

Every time I see that I think of astrology.

 

 No, but I am guessing you mean The Wall by a couple of commercials I seen for it.  It sounds like it was a name looking for a game creation.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Calm

[bluebell]

20 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Very good.

I still think they both are caused by mortal blood.  That is why spiritual eyes can see spiritual things and the memories acquired in the spirit are both block by our fallen bodies.  In short, regardless of study aid definitions I see little differentiating them.

I think the quotes provided earlier in the thread by apostles (on how memories are not completely restored at death) give examples of some good reasons they should be differentiated from each other.   Much of our teachings concerning the spirit world don't work if everyone get's their pre-mortal memories back at death.

[Jeanne]

16 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I agree with you about teaching correct doctrine.  When I teach, and I want to express a personal opinion about a gospel matter, I always try to make it clear that it's just my opinion.  I'd hate to have someone get tripped up over something I said that was wrong.  Of course, when items of false doctrine are taught in church classes, the teacher almost always believes them to be true.  Which is why there must supervision of some sort.  And this would be why the Church wants teachers to stick to the manual!

If our memories of the preexistence had to be suppressed during our mortality, in order to preserve our free agency, why would that be suddenly unnecessary in the post-mortal spirit world?  We'll still need to live by faith, until we're raised to the next level, whenever that is (judgement day?).  Although for those of us who were well-instructed in this life, we will recognize what comes after; and finding things to be like what we were taught would be a confirmation of that which we learned in mortality, and thus we would move closer to knowledge.

Your deafness is only a physical matter during mortality.  Hearing in mortality requires a body that has functional ears.  When we die we will no longer be connected to hearing (or speaking) organs, but neither will we be using air vibrations for communication, either.  So you won't have to wait for the resurrection to communicate.  And you won't have to wait for death to "hear" the spirit -- on the occasions I have heard the voice of the spirit, it didn't involve my hearing organs at all.

As far as your resurrected body is concerned, of course you'll have functional ears then, but even if you took a day-trip to the moon with a friend, where there is no air to vibrate, you'll still be able to communicate with each other. 

 

Thank you so much for your thoughts.  There was a time when someone told me that regaining my hearing after the resurrection..in connection with the body...that I would have to wait and it would be determined by faithfulness...Hey..I will remain a spirit if I can sing again with my sister!!  Thanks again..and I am glad that you express "opinion" in your teaching skills. 

[cinepro]

FYI, here's the original 1964 version (quote at 9:10):

 

[cinepro]

Here's the 1986 version (quote at 9:00):

 

[cinepro]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Yep that's it

Ever see that horrible show where they drop a disc from the top of the box and it bounces around on it's way down and then you get money or nothing wherever it lands?

Every time I see that I think of astrology.

 

That's a cool game show, but it will never top this one...

 

...or this one.

Edited March 15, 2017 by cinepro

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I realize he was contemporary with them, and being from New England would surely have been influenced by the Transcendentalists, but about his philosophy/theology is particularly Transcendental (American Romantic)?  I'm not saying he's not, I'm just trying to make the connections.  Since Emerson is the gold standard, let's use him.  Maybe the idea of subjective intuition could be linked to testimony (I'm thinking of the influence of Hume's skepticism on Emerson).  What about the "Oversoul" -- is that idea found in Smith?  Perhaps the LDS belief that we are the same type of being as God can be linked to the Transcendental Oversoul, since a piece of the Oversoul resides in all of us (and in everything, in fact).

Anyways, thanks for bringing up an interesting point.  I'll continue to ponder this as I have an affinity for the Transcendentalists due to my love of mysticism.

ETA: Let's all become transparent eyeballs!:

 

Yep I think those are all parts of it, but remember Joseph was virtually illiterate and his wife mentioned that when she married him, he was barely able to write a coherent sentence.  The pious interpretation is that God prepared the times for the Restoration and I am not about to say that can be disproven, or that it would have been impossible, but clearly the zeitgeist and the restoration seem to have been in cahoots - pick whatever explanation fits your prejudices.

I think in general Romanticism of course emphasized the importance of an emotional way of seeing reality as opposed to the Enlightenment view that was about logic logic and more logic, flawed as that logic was.   Kant's synthetic apriori was among the first views that emphasized that reality as we know it was essentially synthesized through human perception- so that in a pretty basic way, we create the world as we know it.  Now that phrase seems to me to be practically tautologous- the world as we see it IS the world as we see it, and it is hard for me to understand how anyone can doubt that tautology but I get folks here all the time who do.  And I will get flak for saying that.  Correspondence is dead.

Hume of course talks about the passions and that they rule reason.  What is "logical" to someone depends on how they want to see it, or how they are prejudiced to see it

Then you have the German schowstoppers, Schopenhauer, Schiller and Schleiermacher and then the devil himself, Nietzsche who supposedly killed off the old sectarian god of traditional Christianity by finding him to be a weakling.   But of course all he killed of was an obsolete notion of god that was already pretty moribund anyway, along with the correspondence theory of truth which insists that there could exist a world which could not be directly experienced, but only a world which "corresponds" to it.

That is ultimately where we are today as far as I see it, and the Mormon acknowledgement of religious experience as a direct perception of God cuts out the correspondence theory as well- the contradiction being that IF correspondence is true, no one can actually see God since one cannot perceive reality directly, just the appearance of reality.

Correspondence theory makes God an illusion and that is why the atheists who still hold to correspondence are having a field day.  If our perceptions only "represent" reality, we cannot perceive reality OR God directly, just an appearance of God which MUST by its nature be illusory.  That is straight Rorty.  But that is another subject I have pretty much beat to death here anyway.

The common theme here is that mankind is god and creates reality by organizing it through intelligence.  You see a twist on that directly in D&C 93, where God who IS a Man- the Man of Holiness- organizes matter unorganized through his intelligence, or "light and truth".  Truth is "things as they are"- DIRECT PERCEPTION of things as they are- without "correspondence" which happens by organizing through intelligence- OR THERE IS NO EXISTENCE.   Existence comes through the organizing power of intelligence!

So this passage starts with raw intelligence- in the preexistence- even before, the story goes, we were spirit "children".   Intelligence acts for itself- we act for ourselves- in constructing our own weltanschauung.

Quote

 

 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

 30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

 31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

 32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.

 33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

 34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

 35 The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple.

 36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.

 37 Light and truth forsake that evil one.

 38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.

 39 And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers.

 40 But I have commanded you to bring up your children in light and truth.

 

This from a semi-literate.   Go figure.

God's intelligence permeates the universe and thus creates it by organizing it almost in the way Kant saw it- https://books.google.com/books?id=iHM9ABHZyB0C&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=kant+synthetic+analytic+robert+solomon&source=bl&ots=xLYg8DS_BL&sig=HhO24vlYCBfXD47aQt6EBCuEopA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiRrIihiNrSAhUQ4mMKHXxtClkQ6AEIJzAC#v=onepage&q=kant synthetic analytic robert solomon&f=false         See page 18, first column, starting with "To perceive an object.."  God's intelligence "holds together" all existence through this process of synthesizing it from matter unorganized, through His perceptions of it.

So the short version of the story is I think that Joseph was either immersed in the air he breathed or that indeed he was a prophet genius.

The idea of American Manifest Destiny- that this is the promised land, and go out there as pioneers and conquer matter unorganized was both the theology and zeitgeist that had a curious symbiotic relationship that showed itself through American thinking at the time.

And yes, I think that intelligence can be loosely connected with the Oversoul since we individually are "intelligences" in a confederation with THE Intelligence  BUT that Intelligence is a personal intelligence and not a vague spirit.

Just as you can ponder and "know" the Eiffel Tower without being there, a personal intelligence need not to "BE" everywhere, just KNOW every "thing" there is to be known

[Jeanne]

On 3/15/2017 at 1:32 PM, cinepro said:

Here's the 1986 version (quote at 9:00):

 

Believe it or not..I was more impressed with the 1960's version..maybe  because it was so much a part of my youth.