Man's Search for Happiness film content

[CV75]

13 hours ago, juliann said:

This film says that "the knowledge of your life before birth will be restored" after death. It is a familiar enough film that it is still used (there is an updated version to the cheesier 1960s version) and it is official enough that it is used as a doctrinal tool. It is recommended for the Temple preparation class. I think that declaring we will hit the pearly gates with full knowledge undoes our belief in post-death missionary work...why would it be needed once our memory was restored?

Is there any support whatsoever for this idea aside from this film? Any idea where it originated?

Knowledge may be restored, but the willingness to abide by that knowledge is eroded through wickedness and rebellion. I think the post-mortal missionary work is to inspire and invite (“carry the light… to them” D&C 138:30) people to rejuvenate that willingness. I think the same thing happens in this life when we accept or progress in the gospel—we need to generate the willingness to see and abide by that light.

As a side note, as a boy we went to the 1964 World’s Fair in New York City where that film was debuted. I wasn’t sure what it was about (7 years old) – the Sinclair dinosaurs and “the million volts of man-made lightning!” were more exciting, on a par with Lincoln “animatron,” but it was less annoying than “It’s A Small World After All”… but I digress… and we were not members, but years later I joined the Church in college and while serving a mission after I graduated saw that film and realized where the roots of my introduction to the restored gospel came from!

[CV75]

12 hours ago, juliann said:

I think we will just have to wonder unless somebody has a source for this. The film makes that claim while showing the guy walking through the clouds and greeting family members waiting for him in heaven. 

Since the first film was in the 60s, was this a McConkie Mormon Doctrine thing or something? Since I don't ever recall this being represented as our belief, I don't even know where to go to look for it. A friend who saw this movie in a class is asking me because it was new to her (life long member) as well. 

I think it comes from the Old Testament, where, when people die, they are gathered unto their people (many references in the word search feature). Where we are all here to be tested from the pre-existence, and we are gathered back home, we will remember our associations, even the generations of people we have not known in this life. Where we "are taken home to that God who gave [us] life" (Alma 40:11), I think it reasonable to assume that we would recognize that home and everyone there, and what we did with them.

[JAHS]

President George Q Cannon said: 
"You have heard of men who have been drowning or have fallen from a great height describe that in about a second or two every event of their lives passed before them like a panorama with the rapidity of lightning. This shows what power there is latent in the human mind, which, when quickened by the power of God, will make men and women recall not only that which pertains to this life, but our memories will stretch back to the life we had before we came here, with the associations we had with our Father and God and with those bright spirits that stand around His throne and with the righteous and holy ones." 
(Gospel Truth: Discourses and Writings of President George Q. Cannon, p. 60) 

[JLHPROF]

44 minutes ago, JAHS said:

President George Q Cannon said: 
"You have heard of men who have been drowning or have fallen from a great height describe that in about a second or two every event of their lives passed before them like a panorama with the rapidity of lightning. This shows what power there is latent in the human mind, which, when quickened by the power of God, will make men and women recall not only that which pertains to this life, but our memories will stretch back to the life we had before we came here, with the associations we had with our Father and God and with those bright spirits that stand around His throne and with the righteous and holy ones." 
(Gospel Truth: Discourses and Writings of President George Q. Cannon, p. 60) 

We have a veil of forgetfulness over our minds.  When we pass through the veil that will no longer be there.  It only follows that our pre-mortal memories would be accessible again.

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

We have a veil of forgetfulness over our minds.  When we pass through the veil that will no longer be there.  It only follows that our pre-mortal memories would be accessible again.

Unless the veil of forgetfulness and the veil we pass through at death are two different veils.

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Unless the veil of forgetfulness and the veil we pass through at death are two different veils.

I don't see why they would be.  Both are the veil of mortality.

[bluebell]

35 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't see why they would be.  Both are the veil of mortality.

I've only ever heard them described as two different things.  The term "the veil of forgetfulness" doesn't seem to be used interchangeably with the veil that separates life and death, for example.  

And The Guide to the Scriptures on lds.org states that they are not the same thing-

VEIL

A word used in the scriptures to mean (1) a divider separating areas of the tabernacle or temple, (2) a symbol for a separation between God and man, (3) a thin cloth worn by people to cover their face or head, or (4) a God-given forgetfulness that blocks people’s memories of the premortal existence.

[Ahab]

12 hours ago, sunstoned said:

A important teaching like this ought to have ample official backing.  Julian has asked for sources.  I would like to see these sources also.  Without sources it is just hearsay that can later be disavowed should the need arise.  

Search for it, then. Instead of expecting me to do your homework for you.  I told you that I've read and heard statements from our Lord's prophets on this and you can take my statements for whatever they are worth to you.

And I won't take it as an insult if you feel you need to verify what I say from other witnesses, besides me.

[Ahab]

6 hours ago, Alan said:

I have always understood that our pre-resurrection sojourn in the spirit world is part of mortality. Therefore, it is at the time of the resurrection that all things will be restored, including our memory of the pre-mortal life.

Yes, that is how I have "always" understood it, too.  Although there was a very brief moment in time when I wasn't clear on the idea that I will still be mortal after I die and I, as a spirit without my mortal body, will be waiting to be resurrected.

[juliann]

11 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Search for it, then. Instead of expecting me to do your homework for you.  I told you that I've read and heard statements from our Lord's prophets on this and you can take my statements for whatever they are worth to you.

And I won't take it as an insult if you feel you need to verify what I say from other witnesses, besides me.

Thanks to everyone for the help.

Ahab, you are being rude so I'll make it simple. CFR or withdraw.  

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, juliann said:

Thanks to everyone for the help.

Ahab, you are being rude so I'll make it simple. CFR or withdraw.  

Rude? Me? Withdraw what?  

You don't have to believe me but I'm not going to say I never heard or read any statements from our Lord's prophets that led to the understanding I have on this issue.

And I think it is rude of you to even ask me to do that, if that is what you expect me to withdraw.

[Ahab]

I'm sure I could find more if I took more time. Maybe later....but here's one:

'We define the veil as the border between mortality and eternity; it is also a film of forgetting which covers the memories of earlier experiences. This forgetfulness will be lifted one day, and on that day we will see forever—rather than “through a glass, darkly”'  - Neal A. Maxwell

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1980/10/patience?lang=eng

 

I also found (more Maxwell) as applicable to the OP:

“The veil of forgetfulness of the first estate apparently will not be suddenly, automatically, and totally removed at the time of our temporal death. This veil, a condition of our entire second estate, is associated with and is part of our time of mortal trial, testing, proving, and overcoming by faith—and thus will continue in some key respects into the spirit world. …

“Thus, if not on this side of the veil, then in the spirit world to come, the gospel will be preached to all, including all transgressors, rebels, and rejectors of prophets, along with all those billions who died without a knowledge of the gospel (D&C 138)” (The Promise of Discipleship [2001], 119, 122).

[Jeanne]

17 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

There are several statements made by modern apostles and prophets that clearly indicate a broad knowledge of all that occurred in the pre-earth life WILL NOT BE RESTORED AT THE TIME OF DEATH. One of the quotes bearing on this subject is the following statement from the Apostle Neil A Maxwell:

“The veil of forgetfulness of the first estate apparently will not be suddenly, automatically, and totally removed at the time of our temporal death. This veil, a condition of our entire second estate, is associated with and is part of our time of mortal trial, testing, proving, and overcoming by faith—and thus will continue in some key respects into the spirit world. …

“Thus, if not on this side of the veil, then in the spirit world to come, the gospel will be preached to all, including all transgressors, rebels, and rejectors of prophets, along with all those billions who died without a knowledge of the gospel (D&C 138)” (Neal A Maxwell,The Promise of Discipleship [2001], 119, 122).

I had heard this also..which is why all this was so confusing to me.  Thanks..though I am no longer mormon..I would like to think that I might have existed before.  I became comfortable with that idea.  But what you have here..does make more sense in light of preaching a gospel and being fair in justice/judgement.

[Jeanne]

14 hours ago, Stargazer said:

That film necessarily only covers the broad outline.  It was meant to raise questions and provide answers, not to be a thorough doctrinal extravaganza.

If some members taught that we would remember where we came from immediately after we died, well, they were wrong.  I've been taught some odd things in Sunday School that I realized later were false. 

This is my understanding of the matter: upon our death we receive a preliminary judgment according to our choices made in mortality, and are assigned to either spirit prison or paradise.

Rather than explaining it myself, try Chapter 41 in the Gospel Principles manual.

DC 138 contains a very clear revelation to Joseph F. Smith about the work that goes on there.  And given that the dead who have not heard the gospel here have a chance to do so there, it necessariltweeeans that they do not have their memories of the preexistence restored already.  In an earlier post I made a guess, in jest, about when we'd get all our memories back, but who knows when that will be?  It seems that if we don't receive it sooner, the moment of our resurrection would be a good time.

Between you and me, this is why it was important to teach correct doctrine.  I really thought that we would remember the pre-existence whether it made sense or not.  I am deaf...will my spirit be able to hear? Or will I have to wait until I return to my body...this is something that means a lot to me.

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I am deaf...will my spirit be able to hear? Or will I have to wait until I return to my body...this is something that means a lot to me.

Your spirit body has ears and yes you will be able to hear with them. Your spirit body also has a mouth and you will be able to speak with it. And your spirit body also has a tongue to taste with, and a nose to smell with, and 2 eyes for you to see with. And some other stuff too.

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

I had heard this also..which is why all this was so confusing to me.  Thanks..though I am no longer mormon..I would like to think that I might have existed before.  I became comfortable with that idea.  But what you have here..does make more sense in light of preaching a gospel and being fair in justice/judgement.

The LDS scriptures also make it clear that the dead -- especially the wicked dead -- do not have the veil of forgetfulness removed at death. The following verses from D&C 138 make it plain the spirits of the wicked dead are in darkness (ignorance) and have need to be retaught the Gospel of Christ, something that was once taught to them with power and cogency in the pre-mortal life.

 29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

 30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

 31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

 32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets. (D&C 138)

 

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I've only ever heard them described as two different things.  The term "the veil of forgetfulness" doesn't seem to be used interchangeably with the veil that separates life and death, for example.  

And The Guide to the Scriptures on lds.org states that they are not the same thing-

VEIL

A word used in the scriptures to mean (1) a divider separating areas of the tabernacle or temple, (2) a symbol for a separation between God and man, (3) a thin cloth worn by people to cover their face or head, or (4) a God-given forgetfulness that blocks people’s memories of the premortal existence.

Very good.

I still think they both are caused by mortal blood.  That is why spiritual eyes can see spiritual things and the memories acquired in the spirit are both block by our fallen bodies.  In short, regardless of study aid definitions I see little differentiating them.

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I still think they both are caused by mortal blood.  That is why spiritual eyes can see spiritual things and the memories acquired in the spirit are both block by our fallen bodies.  In short, regardless of study aid definitions I see little differentiating them.

If that were true then we would remember everything when we shed this body of blood, but we don't, so it's not.

[juliann]

10 hours ago, CV75 said:

 

As a side note, as a boy we went to the 1964 World’s Fair in New York City where that film was debuted. I wasn’t sure what it was about (7 years old) – the Sinclair dinosaurs and “the million volts of man-made lightning!” were more exciting, on a par with Lincoln “animatron,” but it was less annoying than “It’s A Small World After All”… but I digress… and we were not members, but years later I joined the Church in college and while serving a mission after I graduated saw that film and realized where the roots of my introduction to the restored gospel came from!

 

 

 

We made a family trip twice. I remember the "future" exhibits the most. They had an electric toothbrush and I thought it was the dumbest thing ever. I also remember their future underground houses which were to be the next big thing.

What I really remember, though, is my dad coming to the car laughing because as he was leaving someone he was chatting with asked him if Mormons had horns (I believe they found out he was from Utah.)

These pictures brought back memories: https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2014/06/1964-the-new-york-worlds-fair/100749/

[Jeanne]

Those of you who got to the World's Fair are so lucky!!  CV75 we are about the same age.  Unless the 75 means you graduated in 75...I am the class of 74!! Of course, I graduated when I was ten..

[MiserereNobis]

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Go to LDS.org and search "preexistence forgetting Wordsworth"

 

As soon as I read your post I thought "Ode, Intimations of Immortality."  Then I did the search.  Looks like he got quoted a few different times.  However, I don't think ol' William the Romantic had Mormonism in mind  It's a great poem! Here's the relevant part to the preexistence:

Quote

Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:
The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star,	60
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar:
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come	65
From God, who is our home:
Heaven lies about us in our infancy!

The ending is fantastic (I edited it a bit for brevity):

Quote

What though the radiance which was once so bright	180
Be now for ever taken from my sight,
Though nothing can bring back the hour
Of splendour in the grass, of glory in the flower;
We will grieve not, rather find
Strength in what remains behind;	185
In the primal sympathy
Which having been must ever be;
In the soothing thoughts that spring
Out of human suffering;
In the faith that looks through death,	190
In years that bring the philosophic mind.
Thanks to the human heart by which we live,	205
Thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears,
To me the meanest flower that blows can give
Thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears.

 

[Jeanne]

45 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

As soon as I read your post I thought "Ode, Intimations of Immortality."  Then I did the search.  Looks like he got quoted a few different times.  However, I don't think ol' William the Romantic had Mormonism in mind  It's a great poem! Here's the relevant part to the preexistence:

The ending is fantastic (I edited it a bit for brevity):

 

The poem is beautiful..I love this.

[Stargazer]

7 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Between you and me, this is why it was important to teach correct doctrine.  I really thought that we would remember the pre-existence whether it made sense or not.  I am deaf...will my spirit be able to hear? Or will I have to wait until I return to my body...this is something that means a lot to me.

I agree with you about teaching correct doctrine.  When I teach, and I want to express a personal opinion about a gospel matter, I always try to make it clear that it's just my opinion.  I'd hate to have someone get tripped up over something I said that was wrong.  Of course, when items of false doctrine are taught in church classes, the teacher almost always believes them to be true.  Which is why there must supervision of some sort.  And this would be why the Church wants teachers to stick to the manual!

If our memories of the preexistence had to be suppressed during our mortality, in order to preserve our free agency, why would that be suddenly unnecessary in the post-mortal spirit world?  We'll still need to live by faith, until we're raised to the next level, whenever that is (judgement day?).  Although for those of us who were well-instructed in this life, we will recognize what comes after; and finding things to be like what we were taught would be a confirmation of that which we learned in mortality, and thus we would move closer to knowledge.

Your deafness is only a physical matter during mortality.  Hearing in mortality requires a body that has functional ears.  When we die we will no longer be connected to hearing (or speaking) organs, but neither will we be using air vibrations for communication, either.  So you won't have to wait for the resurrection to communicate.  And you won't have to wait for death to "hear" the spirit -- on the occasions I have heard the voice of the spirit, it didn't involve my hearing organs at all.

As far as your resurrected body is concerned, of course you'll have functional ears then, but even if you took a day-trip to the moon with a friend, where there is no air to vibrate, you'll still be able to communicate with each other. 

Edited March 15, 2017 by Stargazer

[longview]

D&C 38:8 But the day soon cometh that ye shall see me, and know that I am; for the veil of darkness shall soon be rent, and he that is not purified shall not abide the day.

My take on this scripture is at the Lord's Second Coming, the "Veil of Darkness" (same as forgetfulness) will be removed from all living on mortal Earth plus those in Spirit Prison (both the righteous and the wicked).  Those who did not keep the First Estate (Satan and his angels) are not covered by the veil, they still remember the pre-existence (including what we were like then).  I am sure that those who participate in the First Resurrection (from Christ the Firstfruit through the Millennium) will have the veil removed.  I agree with several posters here that it makes sense for the veil to remain for those in the Spirit World while the Gospel is being presented in both the 'Place of Rest' and the 'Place of Torment' until their time to be resurrected.

Rev 6: 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

At the Second Coming when the veil is taken off, people will remember the pre-existence and the exquisite and overflowing LOVE of God and our complete familiarity with Him.  For the wicked it will be extremely agonizing to be exposed to the gaze of the all righteous and pure being of our Father.  That will be why they want an entire mountain to shield them from the Presence of the Lord.  Not only will it be terrifying for those living on Earth, it will be just as awesome and stunning in the Spirit Realm.

[Bobbieaware]

22 minutes ago, longview said:

D&C 38:8 But the day soon cometh that ye shall see me, and know that I am; for the veil of darkness shall soon be rent, and he that is not purified shall not abide the day.

My take on this scripture is at the Lord's Second Coming, the "Veil of Darkness" (same as forgetfulness) will be removed from all living on mortal Earth plus those in Spirit Prison (both the righteous and the wicked).  Those who did not keep the First Estate (Satan and his angels) are not covered by the veil, they still remember the pre-existence (including what we were like then).  I am sure that those who participate in the First Resurrection (from Christ the Firstfruit through the Millennium) will have the veil removed.  I agree with several posters here that it makes sense for the veil to remain for those in the Spirit World while the Gospel is being presented in both the 'Place of Rest' and the 'Place of Torment' until their time to be resurrected.

Rev 6: 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

At the Second Coming when the veil is taken off, people will remember the pre-existence and the exquisite and overflowing LOVE of God and our complete familiarity with Him.  For the wicked it will be extremely agonizing to be exposed to the gaze of the all righteous and pure being of our Father.  That will be why they want an entire mountain to shield them from the Presence of the Lord.  Not only will it be terrifying for those living on Earth, it will be just as awesome and stunning in the Spirit Realm.

It's even more likely the verse in D&C 38 is speaking of the time of last resurrection and the ensuing final judgement. The verse has a air of finality to it, for it declares that the only ones who won't be abide the day (i.e. judged worthy to inherit a kingdom of glory at the final judgement) are the sons of perdition. It's unlikely the wicked who will remain in the spirit prison so as to have the opportunity to be taught the gospel during the millennium, and who will not be resurrected until just prior to the final judgement, will have the veil removed until their resurrection.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Bobbieaware