Hie to Kolob

[pogi]

23 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I found it in a round about way.  I was watching the AMC show "Hell on Wheels."  They often have some great music that I'll look up later to listen to.  One song they played was by Lower Lights, so I was introduced to how Mormon hymns can be played old-timey style, which was great.  On the album I was perusing, they had an instrumental version of "Hie to Kolob" that was gorgeous (a clawhammer banjo plays the melody, yummy!), so I checked out the lyrics.

Good show (I find their depiction of Brigham Young and the Mormons quite amusing) and great band!  It is really strange to hear Book of Mormon verses quoted and Mormon hymns played on an AMC television series.  I agree, good music on the show. 

As a banjo picker myself, I too found the clawhammer to be very tasty, with a second scruggs style banjo taking over melody later in song.  It is how I imagine the hymns being played as the pioneers crossed the plains - probably more fiddle than banjo though.  It is good to hear a band take the hymns back to their roots in folk and gospel music.   I have made it a tradition to go to their Christmas concert every year, starting back when they used to play at the Masonic temple.  I feel bad for the sound guy though with around 40 members in their band...that is insane!  I had the privilege of playing with their fiddle player (Ryan Shupe) who recorded on my bands album several years back.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Good show (I find their depiction of Brigham Young and the Mormons quite amusing) and great band!  It is really strange to hear Book of Mormon verses quoted and Mormon hymns played on an AMC television series.  I agree, good music on the show. 

As a banjo picker myself, I too found the clawhammer to be very tasty, with a second scruggs style banjo taking over melody later in song.  It is how I imagine the hymns being played as the pioneers crossed the plains - probably more fiddle than banjo though.  It is good to hear a band take the hymns back to their roots in folk and gospel music.   I have made it a tradition to go to their Christmas concert every year, starting back when they used to play at the Masonic temple.  I feel bad for the sound guy though with around 40 members in their band...that is insane!  I had the privilege of playing with their fiddle player (Ryan Shupe) who recorded on my bands album several years back.

My band Uncle Lumpy and the Friends of Calvin Coolidge played in the Provo/SLC area in the early 70s. We had about 20 members and could supply a group for just about any gig. The bluegrass contingency (me on fiddle) played Friday and Saturday nights at the Snowbird Tram Room. Also played gigs at Jimba's in Provo.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

What I'm getting at is that the church corrected the big G to the little g in the Book of Mormon. So it must be in our doctrine that we believe we won't be the same as God but close.

As Christ is so will we be, we will, "...become joint heirs with Christ", and "all that the Father has we will have", only they will still be our God(s). Either way, it would seem that no one is understanding my comments. It is not about the spelling, but about how we speak of them, about them, and what that reverence means. Anyway, too tired of trying to explain it and the thread is being derailed by accident...my accident. 

[pogi]

35 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

My band Uncle Lumpy and the Friends of Calvin Coolidge played in the Provo/SLC area in the early 70s. We had about 20 members and could supply a group for just about any gig. The bluegrass contingency (me on fiddle) played Friday and Saturday nights at the Snowbird Tram Room. Also played gigs at Jimba's in Provo.

Uncle Lumpy and the Friends of Calvin Coolidge...what a great name for a band!  I'll have to check your current band out.  Always appreciate me some good bluegrass!  PM me about your next gig.  My band was more of hybrid rock & roll with some bluegrass instrumentation (before Mumford & Sons and the Avett Brothers made that a cool thing to do).  We were called Hoodooh (broke up 10 years ago).  We were the house band at Oh Shucks Bar and Grill and entertained the heathens into the wee hours of the morning  We played at other venues like the Urban Lounge, Zephyr Club, Velour, Thanksgiving Point Amphitheater, and frequently did shows down in Moab for all of the desert rat hippies (affectionately termed) down there.  I was on the dobro, banjo, and mandolin.  I really miss playing! 

Edited March 13, 2017 by pogi

[JAHS]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

5 hours ago, halconero said:

The problem is there is no little "g" or big "G" in Hebrew or Greek. That's an English invention arising from the printing press. There is no Eloheim versus eloheim.

What I'm getting at is that the church corrected the big G to the little g in the Book of Mormon. So it must be in our doctrine that we believe we won't be the same as God but close.

We can someday become as God is right now, but we will never be the same as He is at the same time.  He is eternally progressing in glory as are we. 

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It is true that normative Judeo-Christian-Muslim theology posits one God who exists outside of time and space.  Mormonism on the other hand posits an infinity of gods, all existing within time and space, all subject to natural law (and masters of it).  Mormonism does not posit a universe created (organized) by only one of those gods, and the most cogent explanation of Mormon theology is an infinite multiverse, without beginning or end.

I don't see that Mormonism posits any such thing.

Fine about the infinity of gods, but there is no necessity of their existing within time and space.  And as for the contradiction of being both subject to and master of natural law -- nope.  God is outside time and space, and He created the rules and is not merely the master of them.  Our own Universe is a created thing, and its creator, our Father, is independent of, and prior to it.  As to the existence of other Universes, created by our Father, or by others, we have no way of knowing anything about them, although of course they must exist, too.

I could acquiesce on the infinite multiverse.  The true nature of this is something we're not going to discover at this stage in our existence.  I think I would struggle to cogently explain my own understanding of just this Universe, and I'll freely admit I cannot even vaguely comprehend what's outside it.

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

Uncle Lumpy and the Friends of Calvin Coolidge...what a great name for a band!  I'll have to check your current band out.  Always appreciate me some good bluegrass!  PM me about your next gig.  My band was more of hybrid rock & roll with some bluegrass instrumentation (before Mumford & Sons and the Avett Brothers made that a cool thing to do).  We were called Hoodooh (broke up 10 years ago).  We were the house band at Oh Shucks Bar and Grill and entertained the heathens into the wee hours of the morning  We played at other venues like the Urban Lounge, Zephyr Club, Velour, Thanksgiving Point Amphitheater, and frequently did shows down in Moab for all of the desert rat hippies (affectionately termed) down there.  I was on the dobro, banjo, and mandolin.  I really miss playing! 

Sounds like a lot of fun! You got around! Hoodoos like at Bryce Canyon?

Uncle Lumpy had r&r, blues, country, folk, and bluegrass capabilities. Plenty of heathens at Snowbird...international ones, too. We played there for a Jet Set group...Patrice Munsel, owners of Anhaueser-Busch and Fiat Motors. They didn't have a clue about bluegrass, but I think they had fun. We got tons of free gormet food after the show. We all took our instruments down to the cars and filled our empty cases with imported cheeses, meats, lobsters, bread. I was dating Sister Gui at the time. She was so impressed by the company we kept! Little did she know....

My gig now is directing our junior college orchestra and playing violin in local orchestras. A couple of years ago 4 of us Friends of CC discovered we were in the Seattle area, so we panhandled at Pikes Place Market. The license fee was $12 and we got $14 in our open guitar case.

IIRC we did a couple of 3Ds songs, if anyone remembers them....LDS folk trio like the Kingston trio. Also played some gigs with Marvin Payne. Really nice and talented guy.

It would be fun to jam some day. FAIR Conference?

 

 

Edited March 14, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I don't see that Mormonism posits any such thing.

Fine about the infinity of gods, but there is no necessity of their existing within time and space.  And as for the contradiction of being both subject to and master of natural law -- nope.  God is outside time and space, and He created the rules and is not merely the master of them.  Our own Universe is a created thing, and its creator, our Father, is independent of, and prior to it.  As to the existence of other Universes, created by our Father, or by others, we have no way of knowing anything about them, although of course they must exist, too.

I could acquiesce on the infinite multiverse.  The true nature of this is something we're not going to discover at this stage in our existence.  I think I would struggle to cogently explain my own understanding of just this Universe, and I'll freely admit I cannot even vaguely comprehend what's outside it.

That's not Mormon theology, Stargazer.  You exchange one set of perceived contradictions for others closely associated with normative Judeo-Christian-Muslim theology -- self-contradictions which spell the death knell for that theology (which makes the one God the only necessary being, and all matter and life created by him from nothing).  Your ex nihilo assumptions are neither biblical nor Mormon.

The God of our realm may have begun his celestial stewardship a long time ago, or only a short while ago, this solar system possibly being his first creation.  That we do not know.  What we do know is that matter can neither be created nor destroyed (nothing is ever created from nothing), and that we ourselves are of the genus and species of God the Father and His Son, and that we are already coeternal with God.  He gave us spirit bodies and material bodies as part of his Fathering process, but we already existed as intelligences forever.  He needs no miracles, even though what He does seems to the ignorant to be miraculous.

[rodheadlee]

 

I like this version. I love this hymn. We sing it in Sacrament one in a while. 

[Stargazer]

26 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

That's not Mormon theology, Stargazer.  You exchange one set of perceived contradictions for others closely associated with normative Judeo-Christian-Muslim theology -- self-contradictions which spell the death knell for that theology (which makes the one God the only necessary being, and all matter and life created by him from nothing).  Your ex nihilo assumptions are neither biblical nor Mormon.

You read into my comments what is not there.  I do not believe in creation ex nihilo.  I suspect I did not explain myself adequately.  So let me try again.  I'm not going to use the word "create", but "organize" (as Joseph used the word in King Follett).

Everything in this observable (and non-observable) Universe was organized by Him, but everything in it (both things that act and things that are acted upon) existed prior to its organization.  Using as a textual convention the word "Outside" to indicate that which is outside this Universe, I say that all of the matter and energy that exist now in this Universe existed at the moment of the Big Bang, and came from Outside.   He exists Outside this Universe, and from that standpoint he observes the whole of it from the beginning to its end.   What is Outside?  I know no way of knowing. 

26 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The God of our realm may have begun his celestial stewardship a long time ago, or only a short while ago, this solar system possibly being his first creation.  That we do not know.  What we do know is that matter can neither be created nor destroyed (nothing is ever created from nothing), and that we ourselves are of the genus and species of God the Father and His Son, and that we are already coeternal with God.  He gave us spirit bodies and material bodies as part of his Fathering process, but we already existed as intelligences forever.  He needs no miracles, even though what He does seems to the ignorant to be miraculous.

Just this solar system?  If you're going to be so limited, why not limit Him to this planet and its moon?  He can simply be renting the sun, then.  :-)

I wrote my previous paragraph before I read this, your second paragraph, and I now realize at least part of where our difficulty in communication lies.  You've got to expand your mind quite a bit further than perhaps you're used to.  When I talk of Universe, I do not mean the space-time comprising the solar system.  Or even comprising our Milky Way galaxy.  I mean the vast extent of everything we can see (and more), going out at least 46 billion light years in all directions from Earth.  We really have no idea how large it is -- we can set a lower limit, but as for the upper limit we're guessing.  But however big it might be, it began from the Big Bang about 13.8 billion years ago.

As to where God is in all this, well, consider our Universe, a sphere of space-time at least 46 billion light-years in radius, as a balloon, with us here on Earth somewhere near the middle (we really can't tell even that much, but for convenience let's allow it). 

Here's my primitive attempt to depict the matter: 

God organized this Universe out of materials He already had to hand.  But in organizing it, He remains outside it (like I said, for Him to have organized it, He must necessarily be Outside).  Just like the blacksmith who heats the metal and pounds the horseshoe into shape is outside the horseshoe.

My understanding of the Universe is that it consists of everything within the visible reach of our telescopes and beyond.  The number of galaxies in all this beggars the imagination.  Recent estimates of the number of galaxies in the observable universe range from 200 billion to 2 trillion or more, containing more stars than all the grains of sand on planet Earth.  In this I guide on Moses 1:35:

"But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them."

In other words, we can't count them (we can't even see them all), but He does, for He knows them.  A single solar system is laughably too limited for Him.

When you write:

"What we do know is that matter can neither be created nor destroyed (nothing is ever created from nothing), and that we ourselves are of the genus and species of God the Father and His Son, and that we are already coeternal with God.  He gave us spirit bodies and material bodies as part of his Fathering process, but we already existed as intelligences forever.  He needs no miracles, even though what He does seems to the ignorant to be miraculous."

...you are absolutely correct.  But the limited language and understanding we now enjoy are not adequate to explain it all.  And from thence comes at least some of our misunderstanding.

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Sounds like a lot of fun! You got around! Hoodoos like at Bryce Canyon?

Uncle Lumpy had r&r, blues, country, folk, and bluegrass capabilities. Plenty of heathens at Snowbird...international ones, too. We played there for a Jet Set group...Patrice Munsel, owners of Anhaueser-Busch and Fiat Motors. They didn't have a clue about bluegrass, but I think they had fun. We got tons of free gormet food after the show. We all took our instruments down to the cars and filled our empty cases with imported cheeses, meats, lobsters, bread. I was dating Sister Gui at the time. She was so impressed by the company we kept! Little did she know....

My gig now is directing our junior college orchestra and playing violin in local orchestras. A couple of years ago 4 of us Friends of CC discovered we were in the Seattle area, so we panhandled at Pikes Place Market. The license fee was $12 and we got $14 in our open guitar case.

IIRC we did a couple of 3Ds songs, if anyone remembers them....LDS folk trio like the Kingston trio. Also played some gigs with Marvin Payne. Really nice and talented guy.

It would be fun to jam some day. FAIR Conference?

 

 

My goodness, I remember when Marvin Payne was selling cassettes of his songs person to person!  I had one of his albums, Ships of Dust, which I really loved!  Nice to see he is still cranking out the tunes!

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

You read into my comments what is not there.  I do not believe in creation ex nihilo.  I suspect I did not explain myself adequately.  So let me try again.  I'm not going to use the word "create", but "organize" (as Joseph used the word in King Follett).

Everything in this observable (and non-observable) Universe was organized by Him, but everything in it (both things that act and things that are acted upon) existed prior to its organization.  Using as a textual convention the word "Outside" to indicate that which is outside this Universe, I say that all of the matter and energy that exist now in this Universe existed at the moment of the Big Bang, and came from Outside.   He exists Outside this Universe, and from that standpoint he observes the whole of it from the beginning to its end.   What is Outside?  I know no way of knowing. 

Just this solar system?  If you're going to be so limited, why not limit Him to this planet and its moon?  He can simply be renting the sun, then.  :-) ......................................

I am well familiar with the nature and extent of the observable universe.

I did not limit it to this solar system.  I opted for both very large and very small realms, and stated that we simply do not know the extent.  The formulaic language used in Scripture (as Moses 1:35) does not in fact explain the extent, nor does speaking of inside or outside give us any coherent sense of when or to what extent his creations took place.  When I speak of "create" I assume that we all understand that a potter "creates" a pot from clay he throws on the potter's wheel.  In fact that is the very point I made in saying earlier on this board that "Mormonism does not posit a universe created (organized) by only one of those gods, and the most cogent explanation of Mormon theology is an infinite multiverse, without beginning or end."  That is my baseline.

Quote

 

God organized this Universe out of materials He already had to hand.  But in organizing it, He remains outside it (like I said, for Him to have organized it, He must necessarily be Outside).  Just like the blacksmith who heats the metal and pounds the horseshoe into shape is outside the horseshoe.

...................................................................

t the limited language and understanding we now enjoy are not adequate to explain it all.  And from thence comes at least some of our misunderstanding.

I prefer the more limited nature of creation depicted in the typical LDS endowment film, wherein God (and his heavenly retinue) create from inside the current universe.  Is his realm galactic, regional, or what?  How would we know?  Can God not have gotten his start with one system?  Does it have to be an entire universe, Big Bang and all?  Is that the economy of God?  It is probably just me, but it seems so absurd to make such assumptions.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

[Stargazer]

56 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I am well familiar with the nature and extent of the observable universe.

Good.  I was surprised at what seemed to be uncharacteristically small thinking from you.

 

Quote

I did not limit it to this solar system.  I opted for both very large and very small realms, and stated that we simply do not know the extent.  The formulaic language used in Scripture (as Moses 1:35) does not in fact explain the extent, nor does speaking of inside or outside give us any coherent sense of when or to what extent his creations took place.  When I speak of "create" I assume that we all understand that a potter "creates" a pot from clay he throws on the potter's wheel.  In fact that is the very point I made in saying earlier on this board that "Mormonism does not posit a universe created (organized) by only one of those gods, and the most cogent explanation of Mormon theology is an infinite multiverse, without beginning or end."  That is my baseline.
I prefer the more limited nature of creation depicted in the typical LDS endowment film, wherein God (and his heavenly retinue) create from inside the current universe.  Is his realm galactic, regional, or what?  How would we know?  Can God not have gotten his start with one system?  Does it have to be an entire universe, Big Bang and all?  Is that the economy of God?  It is probably just me, but it seems so absurd to make such assumptions.

When I consider that the Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies will be merging in a couple of billion years or so, it became difficult to believe that only this one belongs to HF.  And the fact that so many galaxies and galaxy clusters are being drawn towards a Great Attractor seems to say to me that regarding the whole shooting match as His does not seem out of the question, and in fact is the most likely case.

But the nature of creation depicted in the LDS endowment film is not intended to present a doctrinally-sound cosmology.  As you are surely aware, the endowment film is intended to be highly figurative, and is a teaching tool and a memory aid.  And has varied over time.  It used to be a lot longer.

No, I don't believe that God started with one solar system.  Yes, it has to be an entire universe with all the trimmings.  You can have it your way, but what I see as absurd is God taking small steps. 

And this is a question that we won't be able to definitively answer here and now.  Unless one of us gets special revelation on the subject, and I don't see that as likely.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Stargazer

[JLHPROF]

16 hours ago, JAHS said:

We can someday become as God is right now, but we will never be the same as He is at the same time.  He is eternally progressing in glory as are we. 

Glory and knowledge and power.  

[pogi]

14 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Sounds like a lot of fun! You got around! Hoodoos like at Bryce Canyon?

Right

14 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

It would be fun to jam some day. FAIR Conference?

Lets do it!  Who's bringing the washboard and Jew's harp?

[Tacenda]

45 minutes ago, pogi said:

Right

Lets do it!  Who's bringing the washboard and Jew's harp?

Quick story, several years ago my family planned a trip to Bryce Canyon. A couple of years before that we went to a chuckwagon dinner in Jackson Hole that my family loved, so I found one in Bryce. We were thinking it would be crowded like the one in Jackson Hole. When we drove up we were surprised when they came to our vehicle and greeted us and knew our names! We were one of maybe 3 families that showed up. But it turned out to be a great night. I'd drive to see both your bands!!

[Nofear]

Vaguely on topic. Once I heard a classical piece on NPR and the melody seemed really familiar. I don't know if this is the piece I heard but this one based on the 16th century English folk hymn  will be very familiar to LDS audiences.

 

[JAHS]

 

[MiserereNobis]

I'm glad to see some bluegrass musicians here! I enjoy anything from traditional bluegrass (I've seen Del McCoury quite a few times), to newgrass (been to Telluride bluegrass festival many a year), to hippie jamgrass (Yonder Mountain String Band or Greensky Bluegrass, anyone?) to folkgrass (Gillian Welch, mmmmm), to just about any genre that ends in grass

Now, if you told me that the celestial kingdom was beautiful women playing never-ending bluegrass (and you let me drink some craft beer and dance, too), you might just get yourself a convert 

ETA: like Uncle Earl, a great all-female old-timey/bluegrass band:

Edited March 15, 2017 by MiserereNobis
added a picture of the celestial kingdom

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I'm glad to see some bluegrass musicians here! I enjoy anything from traditional bluegrass (I've seen Del McCoury quite a few times), to newgrass (been to Telluride bluegrass festival many a year), to hippie jamgrass (Yonder Mountain String Band or Greensky Bluegrass, anyone?) to folkgrass (Gillian Welch, mmmmm), to just about any genre that ends in grass

Now, if you told me that the celestial kingdom was beautiful women playing never-ending bluegrass (and you let me drink some craft beer and dance, too), you might just get yourself a convert 

ETA: like Uncle Earl, a great all-female old-timey/bluegrass band:

Well, that is heaven, but your beer will have to be root.

[Bernard Gui]

15 hours ago, pogi said:

Right

Lets do it!  Who's bringing the washboard and Jew's harp?

I think this needs to happen. 

[Calm]

42 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I think this needs to happen. 

Give me the lineup and I can pitch it to the conference committee if you want to do more than hustle on the sidewalk (hot in August, don't think too many will stop to listen).  We have had musicians perform before, but not very often.  This would be so fun.  Justify it by you playing some old hymn versions perhaps?

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

Give me the lineup and I can pitch it to the conference committee if you want to do more than hustle on the sidewalk (hot in August, don't think too many will stop to listen).  We have had musicians perform before, but not very often.  This would be so fun.  Justify it by you playing some old hymn versions perhaps?

Maybe in the lobby...Pogi, me, anyone else...guitar, bass, banjo. Fiddle, mandolin, guitar, harmonica?...

[pogi]

22 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I'm glad to see some bluegrass musicians here! I enjoy anything from traditional bluegrass (I've seen Del McCoury quite a few times), to newgrass (been to Telluride bluegrass festival many a year), to hippie jamgrass (Yonder Mountain String Band or Greensky Bluegrass, anyone?) to folkgrass (Gillian Welch, mmmmm), to just about any genre that ends in grass

Now, if you told me that the celestial kingdom was beautiful women playing never-ending bluegrass (and you let me drink some craft beer and dance, too), you might just get yourself a convert 

ETA: like Uncle Earl, a great all-female old-timey/bluegrass band:

Oh man, Dell McCoury, Gillian Welch, Yonder Mountain, Uncle Earl... you are speaking my language! 

I have seen several of them live and Uncle Earl was absolutely fantastic!  That picture doesn't fully capture the seducing siren quality of their live performance however.  I love Abigail Washburns voice, and can you believe - she married Bella Fleck!  Talk about a musical duo! I like her stuff with Uncle Earl better though.

If you think it is good here, wait until you hear Celestialgrass!  Your ticket for admission:

 

[pogi]

15 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I think this needs to happen. 

When is it?

I had to sell most of my instruments but I still have a mando and guitar, and can probably borrow a banjo.  I honestly haven't played in a while and would need some time to get my fingers moving again.  But that sounds like fun!