MiserereNobis Posted March 12, 2017 Author Posted March 12, 2017 (edited) 13 hours ago, Stargazer said: Interestingly, this hymn is one of my wife's favorites. I will admit to getting goosebumps hearing it sung well. I found it in a round about way. I was watching the AMC show "Hell on Wheels." They often have some great music that I'll look up later to listen to. One song they played was by Lower Lights, so I was introduced to how Mormon hymns can be played old-timey style, which was great. On the album I was perusing, they had an instrumental version of "Hie to Kolob" that was gorgeous (a clawhammer banjo plays the melody, yummy!), so I checked out the lyrics. Interestingly enough, the reason why I made this post is because the other day I was watching "Penny Dreadful" and they had witches humming the tune (a traditional ballad) and I thought, well, there it is again, so I better ask the good folk at MDDB about it. It is nice irony that I discovered this gem of a hymn by watching R-rated television, ha! Quote I think we are concerned about some of the themes in this song overwhelming the primary mission of the Church, which is to lead all souls to salvation through Christ the Lord. It is not so much that we are uncomfortable with the message of this hymn, but that we are constrained to lead the sons and daughters of God to fully understand Jesus Christ and His Atonement. I understand this idea, but it's nice to have the deep mysteries available, too. It's what I was getting at when I said that, in my opinion as a non-LDS guy, Mormons should embrace their uniqueness a bit more. Quote In the world, the Big Bang is pretty much part of the accepted Gospel of Science. I don't see that it contradicts the scriptures, either. And if there is a beginning to this universe, there will be an end to this universe. Whether it is in heat death, or some other end condition, it must end. But if God has created the universe, and I believe He has, then he must exist outside of it -- either that or we face the (apparent) paradox that God created Himself. And as Stephen Hawking has put it: "Since events before the Big Bang have no observational consequences, one may as well cut them out of the theory, and say that time began at the Big Bang. Events before the Big Bang, are simply not defined, because there's no way one could measure what happened at them." (see this lecture (recommended): "The Beginning of Time". W.W. Phelps had obviously seen this, for he wrote in this hymn: "Methinks the Spirit whispers, No man has found 'pure space,' Nor seen the outside curtains, Where nothing has a place." I have become convinced that the dwelling place of God is outside this universe. It is in Eternity, which is, as you say, beyond time, and has no beginning, middle or end. When I attempt to visualize this, I get dizzy. Imagine, if you will, what a tesseract looks like (a tesseract is a four-dimensional cube). Our mortal minds seem to have been designed not to be able to comprehend these things -- but our eternal minds must be able to see them. It happens that I don't believe that our spirits exist in this universe, but are "entrained" here. This means, to me, that each of us exist outside this universe, but there is a portion of us that is entrained here. Now, that's getting into some physics. I totally agree with you here. The Catholic conception of God is that He is beyond space and time, which means He is ultimately beyond the ability of our space/time bound minds to comprehend. Couple this with the fact that concepts are rooted in language, and you get one reason why we say the nature of God is a mystery. The closest we can come to describing His nature is through poetry and paradox (there was a discussion about this on another thread somewhere recently...). The immediate knowledge of God comes to the chosen few through direct mystical experiences, and then those who are in Heaven whose knowledge of Him is not mediated through space/time and language. I have a deep interest in mysticism and perhaps that's why this hymn stuck out to me as something quite special. It's a tad bit better than, say, "In Our Lovely Deseret" Quote Yes, we should make teaching the doctrines behind this hymn into the final discussion given to proselytes! Heh. No, I don't really think that. Again, I see what you are saying, but I don't fully agree. Embrace the uniqueness. Also, the proselytes should be made known of the Mormon theology of Gods and eternal progression before they are baptized, shouldn't they? So they know what type of theology they are subscribing to? Quote This hymn is Religion 401, not 101. Absolutely, which is why it is appealing. Thanks for your thoughtful engagement! Edited March 12, 2017 by MiserereNobis 1
MiserereNobis Posted March 12, 2017 Author Posted March 12, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said: Kolob and O My Father were my favorite LDS hymns when I was a believer. I still think they are among the most beautiful pieces of art Mormonism has to offer. They somehow encapsulate in microcosm the infinite cosmological vision of the deepest Mormon theology that I wish was coherent and true. I was never a fan of much of the superficial LDS 'culture', but I feel deep nostalgia for those songs, and the people I sang them with at that time in my life. Edit: What the heck, here's an old recording of me singing/pianoing/guitaring O My Father: Invocation "O My Father" is beautiful, too. I hadn't heard it before. Thanks for sharing your rendition -- I enjoyed it. Is it sang more often than "Hie to Kolob"? They are both pretty open about some very unique LDS beliefs, but I wonder if it gets more play because it is more like a traditional song? Edited March 12, 2017 by MiserereNobis
MiserereNobis Posted March 12, 2017 Author Posted March 12, 2017 54 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: I agree, it is one of the greatest hymns ever pinned, and truly speaks of Joseph's dream, but I think that too many read to much into the lyrics...as they are as much wishes and seeking for greater answers. It does so with faith and confidence, along with hope and desire. Yes, it offers a mystical view of things. A vision or dream that is so expansive that it can really only be hinted at. At least, that's why I like it. It seems to tie into the greater mystical traditional. It wasn't something I was expecting to find in the LDS hymnbook, simply because the greater mystical tradition doesn't seem to have a prominent place in Mormonism. 1
Calm Posted March 12, 2017 Posted March 12, 2017 (edited) 28 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: Again, I see what you are saying, but I don't fully agree. Embrace the uniqueness. Also, the proselytes should be made known of the Mormon theology of Gods and eternal progression before they are baptized, shouldn't they? So they know what type of theology they are subscribing to? Second lesson, it is there, imo, but softly done: "God is the Father of our spirits. We are literally His children, and He loves us. We lived as spirit children of our Father in Heaven before we were born on this earth. We were not, however, like our Heavenly Father, nor could we ever become like Him and enjoy all the blessings that He enjoys without the experience of living in mortality with a physical body. God’s whole purpose—His work and His glory—is to enable each of us to enjoy all His blessings. He has provided a perfect plan to accomplish His purpose. We understood and accepted this plan before we came to the earth. In the scriptures God’s plan is called a merciful plan, the plan of happiness, the plan of redemption, and the plan of salvation. Jesus Christ is central to God’s plan. Through His Atonement, Jesus Christ fulfilled His Father’s purpose and made it possible for each of us to enjoy immortality and eternal life. Satan, or the devil, is an enemy to God’s plan. Agency, or the ability to choose, is one of God’s greatest gifts to His children. Our eternal progression depends on how we use this gift. We must choose whether to follow Jesus Christ or follow Satan. We are physically separated from God during life on earth, but He wants every one of His children to find peace in this life and a fulness of joy in His presence after this life. He wants us to become like Him." http://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/scripture-and-lesson-support/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service/2005-04-00-preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service-eng.pdf?download=true also: "Only in this way could God’s children progress and become like Him" "God has a perfect, glorified, immortal body of flesh and bones. To become like God and return to His presence, we too must have a perfect, immortal body of flesh and bones " "Eternal life is a gift of God given only to those who obey His gospel. It is the highest state that we can achieve. It comes to those who are freed from sin and suffering through the Atonement of Christ. It is exaltation, which means living with God forever in eternal families. It is to know God and Jesus Christ and to experience the life they enjoy." "Exaltation: Eternal life in God’s presence; to become like our Father in Heaven and live in His presence. The greatest of all the gifts of God. Exaltation comes through the Atonement of Christ and through obedience to all the laws and ordinances of the gospel." Edited March 12, 2017 by Calm
Bernard Gui Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) 16 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: "O My Father" is beautiful, too. I hadn't heard it before. Thanks for sharing your rendition -- I enjoyed it. Is it sang more often than "Hie to Kolob"? They are both pretty open about some very unique LDS beliefs, but I wonder if it gets more play because it is more like a traditional song? "Oh My Father" (music borrowed from a non-Mormon composer) is sung more frequently, but usually at funerals. It was my great-grandfather's favorite hymn and I performed it on his violin at my grandfather's and grandmother's funerals and at several other family funerals. I have his and my grandfather's violins. LDS painter John Hafen illustrated the hymn in 1909. His illustrations were published in booklet form which also was a favorite of my older family members. I don't know if it is still available, but here is an Ensign article where they are reproduced with the text. It is one of my favorite LDS works of art. https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/08/o-my-father?lang=eng I am unabashedly a fan of the Mormon cosmology described in "If You Could Hie to Kolob." Evidence is my repeated posting of NASA/Hubble photos of astronomical objects which I call "God's Playground" and expressing my hopes to play there. Given our doctrine that God the Father and the Son are resurrected corporeal beings, I have no problem believing they exist in a physical location in space. It's not mystical for me, but quite concrete. The implications of this make Mormonism unlike any other religion. It is very appealing to me. If the universe is God's handiwork and I can become like Him and do what He does, then by His grace I hope one day to play in His playground...whatever role that might be. The hymn was not so popular when I was growing up, because the tune to which it was set in the 1948 hymnal was, well, awful. We have a number of those tunes, but this one was really bad. The repetitious nature (but not the sentiments) of the last three verses also are unattractive to some. There is no end to the "There is no ends...." Resetting it to Ralph Vaughan-William's melody "Dives and Lazarus" (an English folk song) in the 1985 hymnbook has resulted in it becoming a popular staple of Mormon hymnody as others have noted. I believe for most the appeal is not necessarily the text, but the incredibly beautiful tune. It is significant that the Church retained both these hymns with First Presidency approval in the new hymnbook because of the unique LDS doctrines they celebrate that we don't normally hear too much about. You can hear Vaughan-William's masterful treatment of this melody here... Or this more "orthodox" version Edited March 13, 2017 by Bernard Gui 2
Guest Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 4 hours ago, Calm said: There were no capitals or lowercase in the OT or NT, so how in the world would anyone know this differentiation when the word was the same for God and god? Do you mean in original manuscripts from which the scriptures were taken? The first time in the OT, God (Jesus Christ) is introduced in Exodus 6: 3 his entire name is listed (to quote) "I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac and unto Jacob by the name God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH, was I not known to them". Here his name was all caps to impress upon the world his name, not at all in a common why. Also by other names the same way with other names... John 10: 34-35 "Jesus answered them, is it not written in your law,I said, Ye are gods. If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken". In D&C 132, where more doctrine is found, each time it speaks of "God", capital "G". each time it speaks of those exalted as in verse 20, "Then shall they be gods, little "g". As in verse 24 it makes clear, as it does in John 17: 3, "this is eternal lives--to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ whom he hath sent...". If what I am trying to covey is lost in translation, then I must assume that it is my shortcomings, as it seems so clear to me. So forgive me, I don't know what is so misunderstood about what I have said...it would seem that my misunderstooding means that I don't get or understand Mormon Doctrine on this matter. If righteous living and keeping my covenants means that one day I will be like God, so be it. But I am not a member, nor am I motivated to be obiedent to God's commands, so that I might become a god...I will settle for a tiny place for my family and myself...that will be enough. Either way, I will bow out of this (at least I hope it is seen this way) gracefully. 2
MiserereNobis Posted March 13, 2017 Author Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: The hymn was not so popular when I was growing up, because the tune to which it was set in the 1948 hymnal was, well, awful. We have a number of those tunes, but this one was really bad. The repetitious nature (but not the sentiments) of the last three verses also are unattractive to some. There is no end to the "There is no ends...." Resetting it to Ralph Vaughan-William's melody "Dives and Lazarus" (an English folk song) in the 1985 hymnbook has resulted in it becoming a popular staple of Mormon hymnody as others have noted. I think for most the appeal is not necessarily the text, but the incredibly beautiful tune. I think it significant that the Church retained both these hymns with First Presidency approval in the new hymnbook because of the unique LDS doctrines they celebrate that we don't normally hear too much about. That's interesting to know. When Phelps wrote the words, did he have a tune in mind to set it to? Here's the Lower Lights version that introduced me to it: ETA: The Orthodox Celts version is great. Maybe one day that could be the accompaniment in sacrament meeting...? Edited March 13, 2017 by MiserereNobis
ksfisher Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 10 hours ago, JLHPROF said: I truly believe that we miss something because we do not sing all the verses of many hymns. I wish that would change. Singing "A Poor Wayfairing Man of Grief" or "How Firm A Foundation" without all the verses just feels so incomplete. "If You Could Hie To Kolob" is the same way. Agreed.
Ouagadougou Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 19 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: Hi LDS friends, I imagine this topic won't get too many responses because it isn't about gays, evolution/science/creationism, or philosophy (ha! clarkgoble has been a wonderful contributor of late on this board, much to Mark's happiness I'm sure). And I'm not going to be confrontational or anything, so I figure this thread will waste away after a few responses I was reading over the lyrics for "If You Could Hie to Kolob" and was struck by the mystical nature of this hymn. I was also struck by how blatant the unique Mormon theological beliefs are in this song. It doesn't shy away from controversial Mormon ideas, such as eternal progression and the plurality of gods. It seems a bit of an anomaly to me, in that it is not "Child of God" or "I Believe in Christ" or any other hymn which most Christians (Protestants?) might find acceptable, which is why I'm making this thread. How often is this song sung? How much thought do you think the congregation gives to the lyrics when they sing it? I mean the average LDS congregation, of which the more thoughtful and educated posters here might not be representative (this is true in Catholicism or any other religion, so I'm not trying to say the average Mormon isn't thoughtful, but that the average religious person doesn't devote as much time to thinking about their religion as those who post here or on other religious forums). Also, when the hymn is sung, how often are all verses sung? I'm drawn to the mystical interpretations of the hymn. Eternity means beyond time, so in eternity there is no beginning, middle, or end. My answer to the text would be no, we cannot find where these things begin or end, because when we experience the vision beyond time and place in mystical experience, there is no beginning or end. Everything just is. God, and by extension our deepest truest self, has always been. Finally, I've often advocated that Mormons should celebrate their unique (and sometimes controversial) doctrines. Yes, many people would probably find this hymn to be odd and the doctrines behind the hymn to be odder still. But they're your doctrines -- don't shy away from them or try to explain them in such a way that they become mainstream. Instead, offer them up as the unique ideas of Mormonism. From my experience on this board, JLHPROF is a good example of not showing any hesitation about doctrines that other Christians might find weird at best or heretical at worst (yes, JLHPROF, I'm expecting a rep point from you...) Since I don't believe the Book of Abraham is historical scripture (but a failed translation), I don't believe in Kolob. I believe the first time Kolob was mentioned was in the Book of Abraham. Joseph Smith also said the following: "Kae-e-vanrash receives its power through Kli-flos-is-es or Hah-ko-kau-beam, Kli-flos-is-es and Hah-ko kau-beam receive their light from the revolutions of Kolob. From the foregoing it appears that our solar system, the governing planet of which " the sun " is known in this Abra hamic system as Enish-go-on-dosh, is governed by, or has for a centre around which it revolves a star known as Kae-e vanrash. Kae-e-vanrash is governed by or has for a centre around which it revolves, together with its attendant systems of worlds, Kli-flos-is-es or Hah-ko-kau-beam ; and these two stars with their attendant systems are governed by or revolve around Kolob,the great centre of that part of the universe to which our planetary system belongs." Roberts, B. H. (2013). pp. 442-3. New Witnesses for God: I, Joseph Smith, the Prophet (Vol. 1). London: Forgotten Books. (Original work published 1911) Pearl of Great Price, pp. 60, 61; 1907 edition. Reynolds' "Book of Abraham, a Divine and Ancient Record," p. 30. I don't think Kolob exists--and it's just another name (like the many mentioned above) that Joseph Smith fabricated. The words of this hymn are interesting (and I enjoy how the hymn sounds), but I don't believe Kolob is an actual planet or star. 1
Calm Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: Do you mean in original manuscripts from which the scriptures were taken? The first time in the OT, God (Jesus Christ) is introduced in Exodus 6: 3 his entire name is listed (to quote) "I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac and unto Jacob by the name God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH, was I not known to them". Here his name was all caps to impress upon the world his name, not at all in a common why. No, it wasn't written like that because that is English, not Hebrew. Even English would have it as YHWH I don't know Hebrew so trusting wiki, but this is how wiki says it looked "יהוה". Where are the caps to impress? (Edit: perhaps we are talking at cross purposes and you are saying caps in .English are used to demonstrate how Hebrew was used to differentiate. Please demonstrate this if so by putting up both God and god in Hebrew.) edit: looks like paleohebrew would be the earliest form so the below,, pardon the size, still no caps: My point is caps were not used to differentiate. It is possible that the word itself was different, perhaps someone with actual knowledge can say. Edited March 13, 2017 by Calm
Tacenda Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 4 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Since I don't believe the Book of Abraham is historical scripture (but a failed translation), I don't believe in Kolob. I believe the first time Kolob was mentioned was in the Book of Abraham. Joseph Smith also said the following: "Kae-e-vanrash receives its power through Kli-flos-is-es or Hah-ko-kau-beam, Kli-flos-is-es and Hah-ko kau-beam receive their light from the revolutions of Kolob. From the foregoing it appears that our solar system, the governing planet of which " the sun " is known in this Abra hamic system as Enish-go-on-dosh, is governed by, or has for a centre around which it revolves a star known as Kae-e vanrash. Kae-e-vanrash is governed by or has for a centre around which it revolves, together with its attendant systems of worlds, Kli-flos-is-es or Hah-ko-kau-beam ; and these two stars with their attendant systems are governed by or revolve around Kolob,the great centre of that part of the universe to which our planetary system belongs." Roberts, B. H. (2013). pp. 442-3. New Witnesses for God: I, Joseph Smith, the Prophet (Vol. 1). London: Forgotten Books. (Original work published 1911) Pearl of Great Price, pp. 60, 61; 1907 edition. Reynolds' "Book of Abraham, a Divine and Ancient Record," p. 30. I don't think Kolob exists--and it's just another name (like the many mentioned above) that Joseph Smith fabricated. The words of this hymn are interesting (and I enjoy how the hymn sounds), but I don't believe Kolob is an actual planet or star. https://www.nps.gov/zion/planyourvisit/kolob-canyons.htm 1
Guest Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 16 minutes ago, Calm said: No, it wasn't written like that because that is English, not Hebrew. Even English would have it as YHWH I don't know Hebrew so trusting wiki, but this is how wiki says it looked "יהוה". Where are the caps to impress? edit: looks like paleohebrew would be the earliest form so the below,, pardon the size, still no caps: I don't know either, it just seems to me that Joesph would have changed it if "God" (speaking of God the Father, Son bad Holy Ghost) were the same when speaking of men and women becoming gods, if it did not mean any difference. Either way, I have unintentionally run this train of the tracks...which was not my intent. I remember once driving (well I was the passenger) down the Interstate with a friend, who started talking about when he is creating his own worlds, and I felt like opening the door a jumping out. It would seem that I do not share the beliefs or ambitions to many Latter-day Saints on this topic and the King Follet Discourse and probably never will. Sometimes when people go so far with comments, I wonder if I still belong...this topic has reminded me again how wide the devide that lies between what I believe and what others do. The Prophet Joseph once said, "cling close to the bark of the tree, least reaching for the limbs ye fall". Joseph did not live long enough to answer the many questions raised in that discourse...just too many questions, at least for myself. Questions that simply scare me.
Five Solas Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 11 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: ...always the little "g", for there is only one God whom we worship... Out of curiosity, do you worship Jesus, Bill "Papa" Lee? (Y/N) --Erik ________________________________________________________________ And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking And racing around to come up behind you again The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older And shorter of breath and one day closer to death Every year is getting shorter, never seem to find the time Plans that either come to naught or half a page of scribbled lines Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way The time is gone the song is over, thought I'd something more to say --Pink Floyd "Time"
Tacenda Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: I don't know either, it just seems to me that Joesph would have changed it if "God" (speaking of God the Father, Son bad Holy Ghost) were the same when speaking of men and women becoming gods, if it did not mean any difference. Either way, I have unintentionally run this train of the tracks...which was not my intent. I remember once driving (well I was the passenger) down the Interstate with a friend, who started talking about when he is creating his own worlds, and I felt like opening the door a jumping out. It would seem that I do not share the beliefs or ambitions to many Latter-day Saints on this topic and the King Follet Discourse and probably never will. Sometimes when people go so far with comments, I wonder if I still belong...this topic has reminded me again how wide the devide that lies between what I believe and what others do. The Prophet Joseph once said, "cling close to the bark of the tree, least reaching for the limbs ye fall". Joseph did not live long enough to answer the many questions raised in that discourse...just too many questions, at least for myself. Questions that simply scare me. I just ran across this change to the Book of Mormon, while searching about another topic. Alma 12:31—Changed “becoming as Gods” to “becoming as gods” (lowercasing gods).
Garden Girl Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 I love the concepts in "If You Could Hie to Kolob." It is a beautiful hymn.. GG 2
Bernard Gui Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) 11 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: That's interesting to know. When Phelps wrote the words, did he have a tune in mind to set it to? Here's the Lower Lights version that introduced me to it: ETA: The Orthodox Celts version is great. Maybe one day that could be the accompaniment in sacrament meeting...? Thanks for the link. Very nice. Banjos in sacrament meeting? Maybe in Tennessee or Kentucky.... I doubt Phelps had that particular tune in mind. It was common practice in the 19th century to swap melodies for various hymn texts. In the back of the LDS and other hymnals there are indexes of hymn tunes and meters. The words for hymns can be sung to any melody with the same meter. Edited March 13, 2017 by Bernard Gui 1
Bernard Gui Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) 11 hours ago, ksfisher said: Agreed. Hymn 116 "Come Follow Me" doesn't make sense if verse 4 is not followed by verse 5. In the earlier hymn book, verse 4 ended with a comma, but in the more recent edition it has a period. The first sentence in verse 5 completes the thought at the end of verse 4. Edited March 13, 2017 by Bernard Gui 1
Ouagadougou Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 13 hours ago, Tacenda said: https://www.nps.gov/zion/planyourvisit/kolob-canyons.htm Haha I've been there...great place!
Guest Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 13 hours ago, Five Solas said: Out of curiosity, do you worship Jesus, Bill "Papa" Lee? (Y/N) --Erik ________________________________________________________________ And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking And racing around to come up behind you again The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older And shorter of breath and one day closer to death Every year is getting shorter, never seem to find the time Plans that either come to naught or half a page of scribbled lines Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way The time is gone the song is over, thought I'd something more to say --Pink Floyd "Time" Of course I so...not sure what I typed that would have prompted that question.
Guest Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 12 hours ago, Tacenda said: I just ran across this change to the Book of Mormon, while searching about another topic. Alma 12:31—Changed “becoming as Gods” to “becoming as gods” (lowercasing gods). Actual, this idea occurred in the Garden of Eden, when Satan tempted Eve, "ye shall be as the gods". Then when Elohiem and JEHOVAH found Adam and Eve hiding, Elohiem said, "behind the man as become as one of us". Genesis chapters 1-3 in total.
halconero Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 22 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: I only have D&C 132, and the words of Jesus Christ and the OT, which always refers to gods, with little "g", and anytime we speak of Elohiem, or Jesus Christ as "God" as in "the God". Tell me which canonized scripture shows my error, as far as I am concerned if it is not canonized scripture, Bible, BoM, D&C, PoGP, it is not doctrine. I quote only the president noted word, and how it is noted...so your argument is not with me, but the words upon which I have based my comments. But the song is so great...in fact thrilling. The problem is there is no little "g" or big "G" in Hebrew or Greek. That's an English invention arising from the printing press. There is no Eloheim versus eloheim. 2
Tacenda Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 1 minute ago, halconero said: The problem is there is no little "g" or big "G" in Hebrew or Greek. That's an English invention arising from the printing press. There is no Eloheim versus eloheim. What I'm getting at is that the church corrected the big G to the little g in the Book of Mormon. So it must be in our doctrine that we believe we won't be the same as God but close.
Robert F. Smith Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 On 3/12/2017 at 0:49 AM, Stargazer said: ....................................................... In the world, the Big Bang is pretty much part of the accepted Gospel of Science. I don't see that it contradicts the scriptures, either. And if there is a beginning to this universe, there will be an end to this universe. Whether it is in heat death, or some other end condition, it must end. But if God has created the universe, and I believe He has, then he must exist outside of it -- either that or we face the (apparent) paradox that God created Himself. And as Stephen Hawking has put it: "Since events before the Big Bang have no observational consequences, one may as well cut them out of the theory, and say that time began at the Big Bang. Events before the Big Bang, are simply not defined, because there's no way one could measure what happened at them." (see this lecture (recommended): "The Beginning of Time". ............................................ I have become convinced that the dwelling place of God is outside this universe. It is in Eternity, which is, as you say, beyond time, and has no beginning, middle or end. .................................... It happens that I don't believe that our spirits exist in this universe, but are "entrained" here. This means, to me, that each of us exist outside this universe, but there is a portion of us that is entrained here. Now, that's getting into some physics. .............................................. It is true that normative Judeo-Christian-Muslim theology posits one God who exists outside of time and space. Mormonism on the other hand posits an infinity of gods, all existing within time and space, all subject to natural law (and masters of it). Mormonism does not posit a universe created (organized) by only one of those gods, and the most cogent explanation of Mormon theology is an infinite multiverse, without beginning or end. 2
Ahab Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 On 3/11/2017 at 10:43 PM, MiserereNobis said: I was reading over the lyrics for "If You Could Hie to Kolob" and was struck by the mystical nature of this hymn... ... My answer to the text would be no, we cannot find where these things begin or end, because when we experience the vision beyond time and place in mystical experience, there is no beginning or end. Everything just is. God, and by extension our deepest truest self, has always been. ... My answers to all of the questions are No, too, but I think it's interesting that each person who sings the hymn or reads the verses is not told the correct answers to those questions in the verses of the hymn itself. The person who wrote those words does say what he thinks the Spirit whispers in some regard, but the words leave the questions open and I think it is only through the power of the Holy Spirit that we can know the true answer to those questions. And I also think most members are feeling the Spirit when they sing that song to help them know the true answers. https://www.lds.org/music/library/hymns/if-you-could-hie-to-kolob?lang=eng
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