Hie to Kolob

[MiserereNobis]

Hi LDS friends,

I imagine this topic won't get too many responses because it isn't about gays, evolution/science/creationism, or philosophy (ha! clarkgoble has been a wonderful contributor of late on this board, much to Mark's happiness I'm sure). And I'm not going to be confrontational or anything, so I figure this thread will waste away after a few responses  

I was reading over the lyrics for "If You Could Hie to Kolob" and was struck by the mystical nature of this hymn.  I was also struck by how blatant the unique Mormon theological beliefs are in this song.  It doesn't shy away from controversial Mormon ideas, such as eternal progression and the plurality of gods.  It seems a bit of an anomaly to me, in that it is not "Child of God" or "I Believe in Christ" or any other hymn which most Christians (Protestants?) might find acceptable, which is why I'm making this thread.  How often is this song sung?  How much thought do you think the congregation gives to the lyrics when they sing it?  I mean the average LDS congregation, of which the more thoughtful and educated posters here might not be representative (this is true in Catholicism or any other religion, so I'm not trying to say the average Mormon isn't thoughtful, but that the average religious person doesn't devote as much time to thinking about their religion as those who post here or on other religious forums).  Also, when the hymn is sung, how often are all verses sung?

I'm drawn to the mystical interpretations of the hymn.  Eternity means beyond time, so in eternity there is no beginning, middle, or end.  My answer to the text would be no, we cannot find where these things begin or end, because when we experience the vision beyond time and place in mystical experience, there is no beginning or end.  Everything just is.  God, and by extension our deepest truest self, has always been.

Finally, I've often advocated that Mormons should celebrate their unique (and sometimes controversial) doctrines.  Yes, many people would probably find this hymn to be odd and the doctrines behind the hymn to be odder still.  But they're your doctrines -- don't shy away from them or try to explain them in such a way that they become mainstream.  Instead, offer them up as the unique ideas of Mormonism.  From my experience on this board, JLHPROF is a good example of not showing any hesitation about doctrines that other Christians might find weird at best or heretical at worst (yes, JLHPROF, I'm expecting a rep point from you...)

 

Edited March 12, 2017 by MiserereNobis

[Stargazer]

Interestingly, this hymn is one of my wife's favorites.  I will admit to getting goosebumps hearing it sung well. 

Try this version:

 

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Hi LDS friends,

I imagine this topic won't get too many responses because it isn't about gays, evolution/science/creationism, or philosophy (ha! clarkgoble has been a wonderful contributor of late on this board, much to Mark's happiness I'm sure). And I'm not going to be confrontational or anything, so I figure this thread will waste away after a few responses

 

We have a good number of EV posters who will find this topic of great interest, and will argue strenuously about it.  I hope the thread does not waste away unresponded to!

Quote

I was reading over the lyrics for "If You Could Hie to Kolob" and was struck by the mystical nature of this hymn.  I was also struck by how blatant the unique Mormon theological beliefs are in this song.  It doesn't shy away from controversial Mormon ideas, such as eternal progression and the plurality of gods.  It seems a bit of an anomaly to me, in that it is not "Child of God" or "I Believe in Christ" or any other hymn which most Christians (Protestants?) might find acceptable, which is why I'm making this thread.  How often is this song sung?  How much thought do you think the congregation gives to the lyrics when they sing it?  I mean the average LDS congregation, of which the more thoughtful and educated posters here might not be representative (this is true in Catholicism or any other religion, so I'm not trying to say the average Mormon isn't thoughtful, but that the average religious person doesn't devote as much time to thinking about their religion as those who post here or on other religious forums).  Also, when the hymn is sung, how often are all verses sung?

As far as I can remember, I have never heard this hymn sung in the ward where I've lived most of my church life, 32 years of Sacrament meetings.  I think my new ward, in the UK, may sing it from time to time, given that my wife and new stepson are really into this hymn.

I think we are concerned about some of the themes in this song overwhelming the primary mission of the Church, which is to lead all souls to salvation through Christ the Lord.  It is not so much that we are uncomfortable with the message of this hymn, but that we are constrained to lead the sons and daughters of God to fully understand Jesus Christ and His Atonement. 

On my mission in Germany, back in 1972, my companion and I happened upon a Jehovah's Witness family to whom we taught the first discussion.  They were somewhat receptive, though of course they wanted us to stick to the Bible in trying to "convince" them of our message.  Not something we were interested in doing -- our goal was to get them to communicate directly with God for a confirmation of our message.  In our second discussion, they had a visitor, and it was the local JW anti-Mormon expert.  Or so I assessed him.  He was not at all confrontational, and was quite polite in addressing where our message differed from what they believed.  I was in my third month of serving, and unfortunately I wasn't quite prepared for this, but unfortunately my German ability far surpassed my companion's, and so I was left to meet them alone.  It wasn't that he was prepared to meet these kinds of objections, either, so it wouldn't have mattered.

The final thing the gentleman brought up was the couplet "As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be."  He allowed as how the German translation in his material might not have been accurate and asked if it was properly translated.  I told him straight out that the translation was accurate and meant what it said.  He was apparently mildly appalled at this, and said, "That being the case, I don't think there is a point to further discussion."  I agreed with him, and we parted amicably.  I might have brought up a few New Testament scriptures to back up the ideas in the couplet, but in that moment I wasn't prepared to do so.  But I don't think we could have done anything to prevent what happened from happening.  As we exited the house, my companion asked me "What just happened?"

What just happened, in fact, was the casting of pearls before swine.  Not to say that these people were pigs -- but that they had been fed meat before milk.  Nothing could really be done, if they were unwilling to examine the matter further.

Quote

I'm drawn to the mystical interpretations of the hymn.  Eternity means beyond time, so in eternity there is no beginning, middle, or end.  My answer to the text would be no, we cannot find where these things begin or end, because when we experience the vision beyond time and place in mystical experience, there is no beginning or end.  Everything just is.  God, and by extension our deepest truest self, has always been.

In the world, the Big Bang is pretty much part of the accepted Gospel of Science.  I don't see that it contradicts the scriptures, either.  And if there is a beginning to this universe, there will be an end to this universe.  Whether it is in heat death, or some other end condition, it must end.  But if God has created the universe, and I believe He has, then he must exist outside of it -- either that or we face the (apparent) paradox that God created Himself.  And as Stephen Hawking has put it: "Since events before the Big Bang have no observational consequences, one may as well cut them out of the theory, and say that time began at the Big Bang. Events before the Big Bang, are simply not defined, because there's no way one could measure what happened at them."  (see this lecture (recommended): "The Beginning of Time". 

W.W. Phelps had obviously seen this, for he wrote in this hymn: "Methinks the Spirit whispers, No man has found 'pure space,' Nor seen the outside curtains, Where nothing has a place."  I have become convinced that the dwelling place of God is outside this universe.  It is in Eternity, which is, as you say, beyond time, and has no beginning, middle or end.  When I attempt to visualize this, I get dizzy.  Imagine, if you will, what a tesseract looks like (a tesseract is a four-dimensional cube).  Our mortal minds seem to have been designed not to be able to comprehend these things -- but our eternal minds must be able to see them.  It happens that I don't believe that our spirits exist in this universe, but are "entrained" here.  This means, to me, that each of us exist outside this universe, but there is a portion of us that is entrained here.  Now, that's getting into some physics.

Kolob is not the home of God, but "nearest unto the throne of God".  Nearest in what sense?  I don't know, but I suspect it isn't a nearness of location.

Understanding this hymn takes one far beyond the teaching of faith and repentance. 

Quote

Finally, I've often advocated that Mormons should celebrate their unique (and sometimes controversial) doctrines.  Yes, many people would probably find this hymn to be odd and the doctrines behind the hymn to be odder still.  But they're your doctrines -- don't shy away from them or try to explain them in such a way that they become mainstream.  Instead, offer them up as the unique ideas of Mormonism.  From my experience on this board, JLHPROF is a good example of not showing any hesitation about doctrines that other Christians might find weird at best or heretical at worst (yes, JLHPROF, I'm expecting a rep point from you...)

 

Yes, we should make teaching the doctrines behind this hymn into the final discussion given to proselytes!  Heh.  No, I don't really think that.

This hymn is Religion 401, not 101. 

Edited March 12, 2017 by Stargazer

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Kolob and O My Father were my favorite LDS hymns when I was a believer. I still think they are among the most beautiful pieces of art Mormonism has to offer. They somehow encapsulate in microcosm the infinite cosmological vision of the deepest Mormon theology that I wish was coherent and true. I was never a fan of much of the superficial LDS 'culture', but I feel deep nostalgia for those songs, and the people I sang them with at that time in my life. 

Edit: What the heck, here's an old recording of me singing/pianoing/guitaring O My Father: Invocation

Edited March 12, 2017 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[ksfisher]

7 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Hi LDS friends,

I imagine this topic won't get too many responses because it isn't about gays, evolution/science/creationism, or philosophy (ha! clarkgoble has been a wonderful contributor of late on this board, much to Mark's happiness I'm sure). And I'm not going to be confrontational or anything, so I figure this thread will waste away after a few responses  

I was reading over the lyrics for "If You Could Hie to Kolob" and was struck by the mystical nature of this hymn.  I was also struck by how blatant the unique Mormon theological beliefs are in this song.  It doesn't shy away from controversial Mormon ideas, such as eternal progression and the plurality of gods.  It seems a bit of an anomaly to me, in that it is not "Child of God" or "I Believe in Christ" or any other hymn which most Christians (Protestants?) might find acceptable, which is why I'm making this thread.  How often is this song sung?  How much thought do you think the congregation gives to the lyrics when they sing it?  I mean the average LDS congregation, of which the more thoughtful and educated posters here might not be representative (this is true in Catholicism or any other religion, so I'm not trying to say the average Mormon isn't thoughtful, but that the average religious person doesn't devote as much time to thinking about their religion as those who post here or on other religious forums).  Also, when the hymn is sung, how often are all verses sung?

I'm drawn to the mystical interpretations of the hymn.  Eternity means beyond time, so in eternity there is no beginning, middle, or end.  My answer to the text would be no, we cannot find where these things begin or end, because when we experience the vision beyond time and place in mystical experience, there is no beginning or end.  Everything just is.  God, and by extension our deepest truest self, has always been.

Finally, I've often advocated that Mormons should celebrate their unique (and sometimes controversial) doctrines.  Yes, many people would probably find this hymn to be odd and the doctrines behind the hymn to be odder still.  But they're your doctrines -- don't shy away from them or try to explain them in such a way that they become mainstream.  Instead, offer them up as the unique ideas of Mormonism.  From my experience on this board, JLHPROF is a good example of not showing any hesitation about doctrines that other Christians might find weird at best or heretical at worst (yes, JLHPROF, I'm expecting a rep point from you...)

 

We'll sing it once or twice or so a year, usually as the closing song to sacrament meeting.  I can remember singing all the verses only once, and that was because the speakers left a little bit more time than usual at the end of the meeting.

Not being the other people in the congregation I can't speak for how much or little thought they give to the song.

[Bobbieaware]

6 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

Kolob and O My Father were my favorite LDS hymns when I was a believer. I still think they are among the most beautiful pieces of art Mormonism has to offer. They somehow encapsulate in microcosm the infinite cosmological vision of the deepest Mormon theology that I wish was coherent and true. I was never a fan of much of the superficial LDS 'culture', but I feel deep nostalgia for those songs, and the people I sang them with at that time in my life. 

Edit: What the heck, here's an old recording of me singing/pianoing/guitaring O My Father: Invocation

In what way are the messages of "If You Could Hie to Kolob" and "Oh My Father" 'incoherent?' Since arriving at the point where you were no longer able to believe, what new and more coherent philosophy of truth, if any, do you now embrace?

[JLHPROF]

53 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

 I can remember singing all the verses only once, and that was because the speakers left a little bit more time than usual at the end of the meeting.

I truly believe that we miss something because we do not sing all the verses of many hymns.  I wish that would change.
Singing "A Poor Wayfairing Man of Grief" or "How Firm A Foundation" without all the verses just feels so incomplete.
"If You Could Hie To Kolob" is the same way.

[JLHPROF]

8 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Finally, I've often advocated that Mormons should celebrate their unique (and sometimes controversial) doctrines.  Yes, many people would probably find this hymn to be odd and the doctrines behind the hymn to be odder still.  But they're your doctrines -- don't shy away from them or try to explain them in such a way that they become mainstream.  Instead, offer them up as the unique ideas of Mormonism.  From my experience on this board, JLHPROF is a good example of not showing any hesitation about doctrines that other Christians might find weird at best or heretical at worst (yes, JLHPROF, I'm expecting a rep point from you...)

Ask and ye shall receive. 

And you are right.  I love the way you phrase this.
Our unique doctrines are what make us who we are.  If we had no unique doctrines what would be the point of the Church.  Any Church would do and no need for our claims of revelation would exist.
And it is our eternal cosmological perspective that I love best about Mormonism.  For some it is the opposite - it is the practicality and application in temporal life that they love.  It's wonderful how all encompassing and magnificent the gospel is!

[Alan]

8 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Interestingly, this hymn is one of my wife's favorites.  I will admit to getting goosebumps hearing it sung well. 

Try this version:

 

We have a good number of EV posters who will find this topic of great interest, and will argue strenuously about it.  I hope the thread does not waste away unresponded to!

As far as I can remember, I have never heard this hymn sung in the ward where I've lived most of my church life, 32 years of Sacrament meetings.  I think my new ward, in the UK, may sing it from time to time, given that my wife and new stepson are really into this hymn.

I think we are concerned about some of the themes in this song overwhelming the primary mission of the Church, which is to lead all souls to salvation through Christ the Lord.  It is not so much that we are uncomfortable with the message of this hymn, but that we are constrained to lead the sons and daughters of God to fully understand Jesus Christ and His Atonement. 

On my mission in Germany, back in 1972, my companion and I happened upon a Jehovah's Witness family to whom we taught the first discussion.  They were somewhat receptive, though of course they wanted us to stick to the Bible in trying to "convince" them of our message.  Not something we were interested in doing -- our goal was to get them to communicate directly with God for a confirmation of our message.  In our second discussion, they had a visitor, and it was the local JW anti-Mormon expert.  Or so I assessed him.  He was not at all confrontational, and was quite polite in addressing where our message differed from what they believed.  I was in my third month of serving, and unfortunately I wasn't quite prepared for this, but unfortunately my German ability far surpassed my companion's, and so I was left to meet them alone.  It wasn't that he was prepared to meet these kinds of objections, either, so it wouldn't have mattered.

The final thing the gentleman brought up was the couplet "As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be."  He allowed as how the German translation in his material might not have been accurate and asked if it was properly translated.  I told him straight out that the translation was accurate and meant what it said.  He was apparently mildly appalled at this, and said, "That being the case, I don't think there is a point to further discussion."  I agreed with him, and we parted amicably.  I might have brought up a few New Testament scriptures to back up the ideas in the couplet, but in that moment I wasn't prepared to do so.  But I don't think we could have done anything to prevent what happened from happening.  As we exited the house, my companion asked me "What just happened?"

What just happened, in fact, was the casting of pearls before swine.  Not to say that these people were pigs -- but that they had been fed meat before milk.  Nothing could really be done, if they were unwilling to examine the matter further.

In the world, the Big Bang is pretty much part of the accepted Gospel of Science.  I don't see that it contradicts the scriptures, either.  And if there is a beginning to this universe, there will be an end to this universe.  Whether it is in heat death, or some other end condition, it must end.  But if God has created the universe, and I believe He has, then he must exist outside of it -- either that or we face the (apparent) paradox that God created Himself.  And as Stephen Hawking has put it: "Since events before the Big Bang have no observational consequences, one may as well cut them out of the theory, and say that time began at the Big Bang. Events before the Big Bang, are simply not defined, because there's no way one could measure what happened at them."  (see this lecture (recommended): "The Beginning of Time". 

W.W. Phelps had obviously seen this, for he wrote in this hymn: "Methinks the Spirit whispers, No man has found 'pure space,' Nor seen the outside curtains, Where nothing has a place."  I have become convinced that the dwelling place of God is outside this universe.  It is in Eternity, which is, as you say, beyond time, and has no beginning, middle or end.  When I attempt to visualize this, I get dizzy.  Imagine, if you will, what a tesseract looks like (a tesseract is a four-dimensional cube).  Our mortal minds seem to have been designed not to be able to comprehend these things -- but our eternal minds must be able to see them.  It happens that I don't believe that our spirits exist in this universe, but are "entrained" here.  This means, to me, that each of us exist outside this universe, but there is a portion of us that is entrained here.  Now, that's getting into some physics.

Kolob is not the home of God, but "nearest unto the throne of God".  Nearest in what sense?  I don't know, but I suspect it isn't a nearness of location.

Understanding this hymn takes one far beyond the teaching of faith and repentance. 

Yes, we should make teaching the doctrines behind this hymn into the final discussion given to proselytes!  Heh.  No, I don't really think that.

This hymn is Religion 401, not 101. 

We sing it occassionally in priesthood meeting.

Whereabouts are you in the UK?

[Guest]

9 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Hi LDS friends,

I imagine this topic won't get too many responses because it isn't about gays, evolution/science/creationism, or philosophy (ha! clarkgoble has been a wonderful contributor of late on this board, much to Mark's happiness I'm sure). And I'm not going to be confrontational or anything, so I figure this thread will waste away after a few responses  

I was reading over the lyrics for "If You Could Hie to Kolob" and was struck by the mystical nature of this hymn.  I was also struck by how blatant the unique Mormon theological beliefs are in this song.  It doesn't shy away from controversial Mormon ideas, such as eternal progression and the plurality of gods.  It seems a bit of an anomaly to me, in that it is not "Child of God" or "I Believe in Christ" or any other hymn which most Christians (Protestants?) might find acceptable, which is why I'm making this thread.  How often is this song sung?  How much thought do you think the congregation gives to the lyrics when they sing it?  I mean the average LDS congregation, of which the more thoughtful and educated posters here might not be representative (this is true in Catholicism or any other religion, so I'm not trying to say the average Mormon isn't thoughtful, but that the average religious person doesn't devote as much time to thinking about their religion as those who post here or on other religious forums).  Also, when the hymn is sung, how often are all verses sung?

I'm drawn to the mystical interpretations of the hymn.  Eternity means beyond time, so in eternity there is no beginning, middle, or end.  My answer to the text would be no, we cannot find where these things begin or end, because when we experience the vision beyond time and place in mystical experience, there is no beginning or end.  Everything just is.  God, and by extension our deepest truest self, has always been.

Finally, I've often advocated that Mormons should celebrate their unique (and sometimes controversial) doctrines.  Yes, many people would probably find this hymn to be odd and the doctrines behind the hymn to be odder still.  But they're your doctrines -- don't shy away from them or try to explain them in such a way that they become mainstream.  Instead, offer them up as the unique ideas of Mormonism.  From my experience on this board, JLHPROF is a good example of not showing any hesitation about doctrines that other Christians might find weird at best or heretical at worst (yes, JLHPROF, I'm expecting a rep point from you...)

 

Each time we sing it,  all verses are sang or sung, as is custom in our Wards, Stake Conferences and General conferences. The lyrics are written by William Phelps (as memory recalls) who was a poet, whose songs have ended up to become many of the  songs that are uniquely LDS, he might just be the most prolific songwriter of LDS hymns. In the song he is musing about questions and answers that will never come in mortality, to any of us. When he speaks of "gods" that might be, or where they may have begun, it is just questions not doctrine. Anytime doctrines are taught, byJesus Christ or the OT that teaches of us being or become "gods" it is alway speaking of mortality and the becoming...always the little "g", for there is only one God whom we worship, only one "only begotten" and on one "Holy Ghost" who leads us to them. Hope this helps. 

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Anytime doctrines are taught, byJesus Christ or the OT that teaches of us being or become "gods" it is alway speaking of mortality and the becoming...always the little "g", for there is only one God whom we worship, only one "only begotten" and on one "Holy Ghost" who leads us to them. Hope this helps. 

I completely disagree with this implication.

Edited March 12, 2017 by JLHPROF

[longview]

8 hours ago, Stargazer said:

In the world, the Big Bang is pretty much part of the accepted Gospel of Science.

Don't agree.  In previous threads, I have offered the possibility of 'Red Shifting' due to 'Photon Decay' or to passage through 'strange' regions (such as 'Dark Matter') rather than the speed of receding galaxies.

8 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Whether it is in heat death, or some other end condition, it must end.  But if God has created the universe, and I believe He has, then he must exist outside of it --

I believe there are many dimensions, that our Universe may only 'occupy' a small subset of them.  There are theorists that postulate 20 dimensions or so.  I can easily believe that there will be NO 'heat death' because there is continuous 'recycling' of energy into 'unseen/unknown' (to us) dimensions.  AND there are fresh creations (matter unorganized) appearing from other dimensions.  I think it is conceivable for God to have His own set of dimensions in which to operate that do not directly tie in with the remainder.

8 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Kolob is not the home of God, but "nearest unto the throne of God".  Nearest in what sense?  I don't know, but I suspect it isn't a nearness of location.

The 'nature' of various 'Kingdoms' are drastically different from each other.  Each has its own set of laws and conditions that strongly effect the laws of physics and economic and justice provisions.  It makes me wonder where the 'pre-mortal' intelligences fit in this grand scheme.  When they become spirit children of Heavenly Parents, then they 'reside' in the Celestial Kingdom.  But before that point, where were they?

[Tacenda]

36 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I completely disagree with this implication.

D&C 132:20: 

 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

[JLHPROF]

58 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

D&C 132:20: 

 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

Joseph dictated it.
I'm sure he didn't say to William Clayton "Then shall they be gods (make sure you write a lower case g so people don't think we will be like God)".
Especially when he went on to deliver the King Follett Discourse.

• God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man;

The whole lower case g argument is completely baseless when speaking of exaltation.  When speaking of "other gods" (idols, etc) that is a differentiation.
It is an excuse made by members who don't want to offend potential converts from traditional Christianity.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I completely disagree with this implication.

I only have D&C 132, and the words of Jesus Christ and the OT, which always refers to gods, with little "g", and anytime we speak of Elohiem, or Jesus Christ as "God" as in "the God". Tell me which canonized scripture shows my error, as far as I am concerned if it is not canonized scripture, Bible, BoM, D&C, PoGP, it is not doctrine. I quote only the president noted word, and how it is noted...so your argument is not with me, but the words upon which I have based my comments. But the song is so great...in fact thrilling. 

Edited March 12, 2017 by Bill "Papa" Lee

[JLHPROF]

19 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I only have D&C 132, and the words of Jesus Christ and the OT, which always refers to gods, with little "g", and anytime we speak of Elohiem, or Jesus Christ as "God" as in "the God". Tell me which canonized scripture shows my error, as far as I am concerned if it is not canonized scripture, Bible, BoM, D&C, PoGP, it is not doctrine. I quote only the president noted word, and how it is noted...so your argument is not with me, but the words upon which I have based my comments. But the song is so great...in fact thrilling. 

Again, please explain why the case of the letter at the beginning of the word god/God should matter?  Especially when it was a choice made by the scribe, not the speaker of the inspired words.

[CV75]

12 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Hi LDS friends,

I imagine this topic won't get too many responses because it isn't about gays, evolution/science/creationism, or philosophy (ha! clarkgoble has been a wonderful contributor of late on this board, much to Mark's happiness I'm sure). And I'm not going to be confrontational or anything, so I figure this thread will waste away after a few responses  

I was reading over the lyrics for "If You Could Hie to Kolob" and was struck by the mystical nature of this hymn.  I was also struck by how blatant the unique Mormon theological beliefs are in this song.  It doesn't shy away from controversial Mormon ideas, such as eternal progression and the plurality of gods.  It seems a bit of an anomaly to me, in that it is not "Child of God" or "I Believe in Christ" or any other hymn which most Christians (Protestants?) might find acceptable, which is why I'm making this thread.  How often is this song sung?  How much thought do you think the congregation gives to the lyrics when they sing it?  I mean the average LDS congregation, of which the more thoughtful and educated posters here might not be representative (this is true in Catholicism or any other religion, so I'm not trying to say the average Mormon isn't thoughtful, but that the average religious person doesn't devote as much time to thinking about their religion as those who post here or on other religious forums).  Also, when the hymn is sung, how often are all verses sung?

I'm drawn to the mystical interpretations of the hymn.  Eternity means beyond time, so in eternity there is no beginning, middle, or end.  My answer to the text would be no, we cannot find where these things begin or end, because when we experience the vision beyond time and place in mystical experience, there is no beginning or end.  Everything just is.  God, and by extension our deepest truest self, has always been.

Finally, I've often advocated that Mormons should celebrate their unique (and sometimes controversial) doctrines.  Yes, many people would probably find this hymn to be odd and the doctrines behind the hymn to be odder still.  But they're your doctrines -- don't shy away from them or try to explain them in such a way that they become mainstream.  Instead, offer them up as the unique ideas of Mormonism.  From my experience on this board, JLHPROF is a good example of not showing any hesitation about doctrines that other Christians might find weird at best or heretical at worst (yes, JLHPROF, I'm expecting a rep point from you...)

I like the hymn, but would like to see Jesus mentioned in it. I also like the hymn despite its potential for pretentiousness, but that’s just me (pretentious LOL). And also a little bit like a chant in the last two verses, which runs contrary our general customs. This makes it more meditative to me than mystical, though I can see your point, as chants ar often employed to achieve mystical results.

I don’t think eternity means beyond time, so I have no issue there. Matter and space are represented in the eternal round, and both entail time. They (eternity, time and space) are emphasized in two of the five verses.

[california boy]

I always felt that "If You Could Hie to Kolob" is an anthem for Mormonism and has always been my favorite hymn.  It speaks of the greatness of the vision Joseph Smith had that is radically different than virtually any other religion.  I was so moved by the message of "If You Could Hie to Kolob" that I wrote an additional verse.  Never shared it with anyone because I felt so personally connected with it.  This is the one song I would like to have sung at my funeral.  And maybe I will include the verse that I wrote to be sung as well.  After this, I don't really care what takes place once I am gone.  It is just this message I would like to leave with those that are left behind. 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Again, please explain why the case of the letter at the beginning of the word god/God should matter?  Especially when it was a choice made by the scribe, not the speaker of the inspired words.

The "scribe" while the scripture we're going from "oral tradition" to the written word...each time the word Elohiem"God" was written they would change the quill they used to continue writing while writing the Torah. Also as Joseph dictated D&C 132, would have corrected how "God" was represented, which was clearly as other scripture also uses "gods" instead of "Gods". It is no mistake,"God", "Elohiem" is the God, and no one will equal him, except for Christ, who (to quote scripture) "...Jesus, thought it not robbery to be equal to God". We can and will become immortal, and can become "gods", but never become God, as God continues to eternally progress, He will always be our God, as will Jesus Christ, who is the God of all creation, past present and future. Maybe rather than question, show me where in scripture I am wrong. 

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, Alan said:

We sing it occassionally in priesthood meeting.

Whereabouts are you in the UK?

West Sussex!  In the Worthing ward!

Although I'm not there at the moment.  I was in the UK on a 6-month visitor visa, so now I'm home in Olympia, Washington about to apply for a spouse visa.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I truly believe that we miss something because we do not sing all the verses of many hymns.  I wish that would change.
Singing "A Poor Wayfairing Man of Grief" or "How Firm A Foundation" without all the verses just feels so incomplete.
"If You Could Hie To Kolob" is the same way.

And singing sacrament songs that leave out the most relevant verses because the song builds up to a finale...it is just too sad.

Our chorister has a lifetime calling.   She rotates through the entire book, so we sing this song as much as the other nonsacrament and nonseasonal songs.  I like her choice to give all the songs a chance.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, california boy said:

I always felt that "If You Could Hie to Kolob" is an anthem for Mormonism and has always been my favorite hymn.  It speaks of the greatness of the vision Joseph Smith had that is radically different than virtually any other religion.  I was so moved by the message of "If You Could Hie to Kolob" that I wrote an additional verse.  Never shared it with anyone because I felt so personally connected with it.  This is the one song I would like to have sung at my funeral.  And maybe I will include the verse that I wrote to be sung as well.  After this, I don't really care what takes place once I am gone.  It is just this message I would like to leave with those that are left behind. 

I agree, it is one of the greatest hymns ever pinned, and truly speaks of Joseph's dream, but I think that too many read to much into the lyrics...as they are as much wishes and seeking for greater answers. It does so with faith and confidence, along with hope and desire. I wish I had wrote such lyrics, I have written many poems that have sold in LDS bookstores that have inspired many...but nothing like this...the author must have been touched by the hand of God...The God, not "a (g)od. 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Anytime doctrines are taught, byJesus Christ or the OT that teaches of us being or become "gods" it is alway speaking of mortality and the becoming...always the little "g", for there is only one God whom we worship, only one "only begotten" and on one "Holy Ghost" who leads us to them. Hope this helps. 

There were no capitals or lowercase  in the OT or NT, so how in the world would anyone know this differentiation when the word was the same for God and god?

[Stargazer]

 

3 hours ago, longview said:

Don't agree.  In previous threads, I have offered the possibility of 'Red Shifting' due to 'Photon Decay' or to passage through 'strange' regions (such as 'Dark Matter') rather than the speed of receding galaxies.

You're entitled to disagree.  But I wasn't saying that there aren't some minority opinions in opposition to the Big Bang.  I was saying that the Big Bang is the generally accept cosmological doctrine of science. 

And I've read your speculations, and they are interesting.  I don't think they hold water, however. 

3 hours ago, longview said:

I believe there are many dimensions, that our Universe may only 'occupy' a small subset of them.  There are theorists that postulate 20 dimensions or so.  I can easily believe that there will be NO 'heat death' because there is continuous 'recycling' of energy into 'unseen/unknown' (to us) dimensions.  AND there are fresh creations (matter unorganized) appearing from other dimensions.  I think it is conceivable for God to have His own set of dimensions in which to operate that do not directly tie in with the remainder.

Yes, and of course we know nothing (and CAN know nothing) about any other Universe outside our own -- at least while we're in it.  And this Universe is isolated from the others, and thus heat death here means nothing in anything outside the Universe.  There is an alternative to heat-death, however.  And that is that it re-coalesces to begin the entire process all over again.  I wouldn't commit to either outcome, personally.

3 hours ago, longview said:

The 'nature' of various 'Kingdoms' are drastically different from each other.  Each has its own set of laws and conditions that strongly effect the laws of physics and economic and justice provisions.  It makes me wonder where the 'pre-mortal' intelligences fit in this grand scheme.  When they become spirit children of Heavenly Parents, then they 'reside' in the Celestial Kingdom.  But before that point, where were they?

Interesting question, but one without any possibility of an answer from where we currently stand.

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I only have D&C 132, and the words of Jesus Christ and the OT, which always refers to gods, with little "g", and anytime we speak of Elohiem, or Jesus Christ as "God" as in "the God". Tell me which canonized scripture shows my error, as far as I am concerned if it is not canonized scripture, Bible, BoM, D&C, PoGP, it is not doctrine. I quote only the president noted word, and how it is noted...so your argument is not with me, but the words upon which I have based my comments. But the song is so great...in fact thrilling. 

The whole big and little "g" has to do more with reverence than a difference of being.  There are no degrees of exaltation.  Either one is exalted or they are not and if one is exalted, they are exalted to the same degree as everyone else.  It is man or translators that are putting the G or g, God is not doing that.

Edited March 12, 2017 by carbon dioxide

[Calm]

1 minute ago, carbon dioxide said:

The whole big and little "g" has to do more with reverence than a difference of being.  There are not degrees of exaltation.  Either one is exalted or they are not and if one is exalted, they are exalted to the same degree as everyone else.  It is man or translators that are putting the G or g, God is not doing that.

I am unsettled on this.  What about the whole many mansions teachings?

Being "one with God", which is how I define exaltation, does certainly sound all or nothing, but I can imagine ways where this happens in degrees...we are one with God in some areas, but not in others.  I suspect this is what differentiates the various kingdoms, which may mean if I am right that exaltation is not only a full and total oneness, but also slightly less oneness that allows for a continuance of developing understanding and ability to be one.