Johnnie Cake Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) 300 years before Jesus lived the Greek philosopher Epicurus promoted the philosophy of living life to its fullest. He promoted the premise that through the seeking of pleasure one could find true happiness. This philosophy in a nut shell could be stated as eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die....but also the philosophy that in so doing to "primum non nocere" or in other words do no harm. Since leaving Mormonism I’ve come to appreciate the wisdom of Epicurus. That by allowing one to enjoy the many pleasures found in a human existence one can truly find happiness and enjoyment. I’m not talking of extremes…like gluttony, exhibiting no self-control, drunkenness or immorality folks…. Simply enjoying the finer things that life has to offer. The Book of Mormon bastardizes this philosophy implying an extreme image of the philosophy of Epicurus make the seeking of pleasure in life something that should be avoided and something that is sinful. In 2 Nephi 28:7-10 We read: 7Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us. 8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God. Notice how Smith adds to the biblical verses and instead of focusing on the Epicurus aspects of the verse not only exaggerates the Epicurean philosophy by suggesting that those who follow this philosophy would also encourage the committing of sin, of taking advantage of one’s neighbor etc but also sets up a false narrative….designed to drive people away from pleasure seeking. Anyone who has studied Epicureanism knows that This is far from what he taught. Smith then goes to undermine the philosophy by adding: 9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark. 10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them. The philosophy of eating, drinking and seeking pleasure were originally positively taught in the Bible. In its original forms taken from the Bible it is a conflation of two biblical scriptures. Ecclesiastes 8:15, ‘Then I commended mirth, because a man hath no better thing under the sun, than to eat, and to drink, and to be merry’, and Isaiah 22:13, ‘Let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we shall die.’ In their original Biblical context neither of these verses suggest that the seeking of pleasure is sin….why then did Joseph Smith find it necessary to conflate these 2 scriptures and make the seeking of pleasure into something that we should avoid at all cost? In my humble opinion Joseph did the LDS saints a disservice when he made the seeking of pleasure a sin for the Mormon people… Trust me when I say…that life is wonderful when one takes the time to do something that gives them pleasure in this life….and oh the sadness in my heart for those that avoid joy and pleasure…for they have lived only a life unfulfilled. And that is sad. Edited March 7, 2017 by Johnnie Cake
The Nehor Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 I make it a matter of practice to seek out pleasure and that scripture is clearly tied to seeking unlawful pleasure or to abstaining from following or acknowledging the laws of God because one is seeking pleasure excessively. the idea that pleasure is wrong is an ascetic philosophy. The LDS church does not teach asceticism or have ascetic orders. My God is a hedonist in the classical sense. His goal is happiness for himself and others and at his side there are pleasures of every good and enjoyable kind forever. 3
Ahab Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 8 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: 300 years before Jesus lived the Greek philosopher Epicurus promoted the philosophy of living life to its fullest. He promoted the premise that through the seeking of pleasure one could find true happiness. This philosophy in a nut shell could be stated as eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die....but also the philosophy that in so doing to "primum non nocere" or in other words do no harm. Since leaving Mormonism I’ve come to appreciate the wisdom of Epicurus. That by allowing one to enjoy the many pleasures found in a human existence one can truly find happiness and enjoyment. I’m not talking of extremes…like gluttony, exhibiting no self-control, drunkenness or immorality folks…. Simply enjoying the finer things that life has to offer. The Book of Mormon bastardizes this philosophy implying an extreme image of the philosophy of Epicurus make the seeking of pleasure in life something that should be avoided and something that is sinful. In 2 Nephi 28:7-10 We read: 7Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us. 8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God. Notice how Smith adds to the biblical verses and instead of focusing on the Epicurus aspects of the verse not only exaggerates the Epicurean philosophy by suggesting that those who follow this philosophy would also encourage the committing of sin, of taking advantage of one’s neighbor etc but also sets up a false narrative….designed to drive people away from pleasure seeking. Anyone who has studied Epicureanism knows that This is far from what he taught. Smith then goes to undermine the philosophy by adding: 9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark. 10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them. The philosophy of eating, drinking and seeking pleasure were originally positively taught in the Bible. In its original forms taken from the Bible it is a conflation of two biblical scriptures. Ecclesiastes 8:15, ‘Then I commended mirth, because a man hath no better thing under the sun, than to eat, and to drink, and to be merry’, and Isaiah 22:13, ‘Let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we shall die.’ In their original Biblical context neither of these verses suggest that the seeking of pleasure is sin….why then did Joseph Smith find it necessary to conflate these 2 scriptures and make the seeking of pleasure into something that we should avoid at all cost? In my humble opinion Joseph did the LDS saints a disservice when he made the seeking of pleasure a sin for the Mormon people… Trust me when I say…that life is wonderful when one take time to do something that gives them pleasure in this life….and oh the sadness in my heart for those that avoid joy and pleasure…for they have lived only a partial life. And that is sad. Once again you show that you do not correctly understand our religion. Oh well. At least you are having fun now. 2
Duncan Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 Elder Marion D. Hanks, "Religion is not a thing apart from life. It is not principles and ordinances or missionary work or leadership as an end in themselves. It is manifested by the kind of people we are, by our relationship with our Heavenly Father and his Son and all of the commandments, by the measure in which we qualify for the approval of our own Spirit-guided conscience, and by the way we treat other people. It is a continuing marvel to me how well and with what grace and unselfish goodness so many live this sacred commandment. And it is sad to think that some may, in a joyless version of “the gospel,” miss the special blessings awaiting on the path established by our Savior and leading to the highest joy through Christian service and sacrifice. An ancient rabbinical aphorism comes to mind: “God will hold us responsible for all the wonderful things on earth that we refused to enjoy.” Oct. 1988, GC 1
Johnnie Cake Posted March 7, 2017 Author Posted March 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, Duncan said: Elder Marion D. Hanks, "Religion is not a thing apart from life. It is not principles and ordinances or missionary work or leadership as an end in themselves. It is manifested by the kind of people we are, by our relationship with our Heavenly Father and his Son and all of the commandments, by the measure in which we qualify for the approval of our own Spirit-guided conscience, and by the way we treat other people. It is a continuing marvel to me how well and with what grace and unselfish goodness so many live this sacred commandment. And it is sad to think that some may, in a joyless version of “the gospel,” miss the special blessings awaiting on the path established by our Savior and leading to the highest joy through Christian service and sacrifice. An ancient rabbinical aphorism comes to mind: “God will hold us responsible for all the wonderful things on earth that we refused to enjoy.” Oct. 1988, GC Clearly I was wrong....I'm buying...who's drinking? 1
bluebell Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 26 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: 300 years before Jesus lived the Greek philosopher Epicurus promoted the philosophy of living life to its fullest. He promoted the premise that through the seeking of pleasure one could find true happiness. This philosophy in a nut shell could be stated as eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die....but also the philosophy that in so doing to "primum non nocere" or in other words do no harm. Since leaving Mormonism I’ve come to appreciate the wisdom of Epicurus. That by allowing one to enjoy the many pleasures found in a human existence one can truly find happiness and enjoyment. I’m not talking of extremes…like gluttony, exhibiting no self-control, drunkenness or immorality folks…. Simply enjoying the finer things that life has to offer. The Book of Mormon bastardizes this philosophy implying an extreme image of the philosophy of Epicurus make the seeking of pleasure in life something that should be avoided and something that is sinful. In 2 Nephi 28:7-10 We read: 7Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us. 8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God. Notice how Smith adds to the biblical verses and instead of focusing on the Epicurus aspects of the verse not only exaggerates the Epicurean philosophy by suggesting that those who follow this philosophy would also encourage the committing of sin, of taking advantage of one’s neighbor etc but also sets up a false narrative….designed to drive people away from pleasure seeking. Anyone who has studied Epicureanism knows that This is far from what he taught. Smith then goes to undermine the philosophy by adding: 9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark. 10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them. The philosophy of eating, drinking and seeking pleasure were originally positively taught in the Bible. In its original forms taken from the Bible it is a conflation of two biblical scriptures. Ecclesiastes 8:15, ‘Then I commended mirth, because a man hath no better thing under the sun, than to eat, and to drink, and to be merry’, and Isaiah 22:13, ‘Let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we shall die.’ In their original Biblical context neither of these verses suggest that the seeking of pleasure is sin….why then did Joseph Smith find it necessary to conflate these 2 scriptures and make the seeking of pleasure into something that we should avoid at all cost? In my humble opinion Joseph did the LDS saints a disservice when he made the seeking of pleasure a sin for the Mormon people… Trust me when I say…that life is wonderful when one takes the time to do something that gives them pleasure in this life….and oh the sadness in my heart for those that avoid joy and pleasure…for they have lived only a life unfulfilled. And that is sad. The BOM isn't teaching that seeking pleasure is sinful, but that it must be kept within proper boundaries. Seeking pleasure should not be our highest goal, nor where we spend the bulk of our time and energy. 1
pogi Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: In my humble opinion Joseph did the LDS saints a disservice when he made the seeking of pleasure a sin for the Mormon people… Trust me when I say…that life is wonderful when one takes the time to do something that gives them pleasure in this life….and oh the sadness in my heart for those that avoid joy and pleasure…for they have lived only a life unfulfilled. And that is sad. First, you should know better than to accuse Mormonism of teaching asceticism. That narrative simply is not played out in the Book of Mormon where the Lord blesses the righteous over and over with many pleasures of this life and this world. Second, you probably shouldn't make a theory based on the assumption that Joseph authored the Book of Mormon in a crowd like this, it won't go over well. What the Book of Mormon teaches is the critical importance of maintaining a healthy PRIORITY and PERSPECTIVE in such things - to always acknowledge God's hand in humility for the pleasures of life, and to always remember those who are less fortunate. Edit: Once again, bluebell beats me to the punch. Edited March 7, 2017 by pogi 1
Johnnie Cake Posted March 8, 2017 Author Posted March 8, 2017 13 minutes ago, pogi said: First, you should know better than to accuse Mormonism of teaching asceticism. That narrative simply is not played out in the Book of Mormon where the Lord blesses the righteous over and over with many pleasures of this life and this world. Second, you probably shouldn't make a theory based on the assumption that Joseph authored the Book of Mormon in a crowd like this, it won't go over well. What the Book of Mormon teaches is the critical importance of maintaining a healthy PRIORITY and PERSPECTIVE in such things - to always acknowledge God's hand in humility for the pleasures of life, and to always remember those who are less fortunate. Edit: Once again, bluebell beats me to the punch. I acknowledge that my point of view on the authorship of the BoM is not shared by the majority of the board members. With respect to Mormonism of teaching asceticism...I completely disagree...all religions including Mormonism teach moderation and temperance in all things but especially the seeking of pleasure 2
Johnnie Cake Posted March 8, 2017 Author Posted March 8, 2017 Id like to add....I'm not trying to be bad Johnnie here...I'm trying to talk to the point that pleasure seeking within Mormonism is frowned upon...and that is sad...Life should be lived to its fullest...I guess that is all I am saying. Get out and enjoy Life 1
Ahab Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 1 minute ago, Johnnie Cake said: I acknowledge that my point of view on the authorship of the BoM is not shared by the majority of the board members. With respect to Mormonism of teaching asceticism...I completely disagree...all religions including Mormonism teach moderation and temperance in all things but especially the seeking of pleasure It depends on what a person does for pleasure, I suppose. I don't see any limit to how much good I can do in this world, other than from people who are opposed to me doing good things. If you're talking about getting pleasure from doing things that are not good for you, though, then yeah, you should probably try to limit that as much as you can just because that stuff isn't good for you to be doing. 1
JLHPROF Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 7 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Id like to add....I'm not trying to be bad Johnnie here...I'm trying to talk to the point that pleasure seeking within Mormonism is frowned upon...and that is sad...Life should be lived to its fullest...I guess that is all I am saying. Get out and enjoy Life Not all people enjoy the same pleasures of life. Forcing your idea of life's pleasures on people is no better than a religious person forcing arbitrary restrictions of pleasures. Man is that he might have joy. 2
Bobbieaware Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 51 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: 300 years before Jesus lived the Greek philosopher Epicurus promoted the philosophy of living life to its fullest. He promoted the premise that through the seeking of pleasure one could find true happiness. This philosophy in a nut shell could be stated as eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die....but also the philosophy that in so doing to "primum non nocere" or in other words do no harm. Since leaving Mormonism I’ve come to appreciate the wisdom of Epicurus. That by allowing one to enjoy the many pleasures found in a human existence one can truly find happiness and enjoyment. I’m not talking of extremes…like gluttony, exhibiting no self-control, drunkenness or immorality folks…. Simply enjoying the finer things that life has to offer. The Book of Mormon bastardizes this philosophy implying an extreme image of the philosophy of Epicurus make the seeking of pleasure in life something that should be avoided and something that is sinful. In 2 Nephi 28:7-10 We read: 7Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us. 8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God. Notice how Smith adds to the biblical verses and instead of focusing on the Epicurus aspects of the verse not only exaggerates the Epicurean philosophy by suggesting that those who follow this philosophy would also encourage the committing of sin, of taking advantage of one’s neighbor etc but also sets up a false narrative….designed to drive people away from pleasure seeking. Anyone who has studied Epicureanism knows that This is far from what he taught. Smith then goes to undermine the philosophy by adding: 9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark. 10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them. The philosophy of eating, drinking and seeking pleasure were originally positively taught in the Bible. In its original forms taken from the Bible it is a conflation of two biblical scriptures. Ecclesiastes 8:15, ‘Then I commended mirth, because a man hath no better thing under the sun, than to eat, and to drink, and to be merry’, and Isaiah 22:13, ‘Let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we shall die.’ In their original Biblical context neither of these verses suggest that the seeking of pleasure is sin….why then did Joseph Smith find it necessary to conflate these 2 scriptures and make the seeking of pleasure into something that we should avoid at all cost? In my humble opinion Joseph did the LDS saints a disservice when he made the seeking of pleasure a sin for the Mormon people… Trust me when I say…that life is wonderful when one takes the time to do something that gives them pleasure in this life….and oh the sadness in my heart for those that avoid joy and pleasure…for they have lived only a life unfulfilled. And that is sad. After reading this post, and recognizing the thoughts expressed sprang forth from the mind of a former member of the Church who seems to delight in snidely disrespecting the perspective of believing Latter-Day Saints, the following two verses of scripture immediately came to mind: 10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full. 11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries... (Alma 12) 4
bluebell Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 20 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: I acknowledge that my point of view on the authorship of the BoM is not shared by the majority of the board members. With respect to Mormonism of teaching asceticism...I completely disagree...all religions including Mormonism teach moderation and temperance in all things but especially the seeking of pleasure That's not asceticism though. Asceticism is the severe self discipline and avoidance of all forms of indulgence. Moderation and temperance is not that. 1
Popular Post Robert F. Smith Posted March 8, 2017 Popular Post Posted March 8, 2017 1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said: 300 years before Jesus lived the Greek philosopher Epicurus promoted the philosophy of living life to its fullest. He promoted the premise that through the seeking of pleasure one could find true happiness. This philosophy in a nut shell could be stated as eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die....but also the philosophy that in so doing to "primum non nocere" or in other words do no harm. Since leaving Mormonism I’ve come to appreciate the wisdom of Epicurus. That by allowing one to enjoy the many pleasures found in a human existence one can truly find happiness and enjoyment. I’m not talking of extremes…like gluttony, exhibiting no self-control, drunkenness or immorality folks…. Simply enjoying the finer things that life has to offer. The Book of Mormon bastardizes this philosophy implying an extreme image of the philosophy of Epicurus make the seeking of pleasure in life something that should be avoided and something that is sinful. In 2 Nephi 28:7-10 We read: 7Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us. 8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God. Notice how Smith adds to the biblical verses and instead of focusing on the Epicurus aspects of the verse not only exaggerates the Epicurean philosophy by suggesting that those who follow this philosophy would also encourage the committing of sin, of taking advantage of one’s neighbor etc but also sets up a false narrative….designed to drive people away from pleasure seeking. Anyone who has studied Epicureanism knows that This is far from what he taught. Smith then goes to undermine the philosophy by adding: 9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark. 10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them. The philosophy of eating, drinking and seeking pleasure were originally positively taught in the Bible. In its original forms taken from the Bible it is a conflation of two biblical scriptures. Ecclesiastes 8:15, ‘Then I commended mirth, because a man hath no better thing under the sun, than to eat, and to drink, and to be merry’, and Isaiah 22:13, ‘Let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we shall die.’ In their original Biblical context neither of these verses suggest that the seeking of pleasure is sin….why then did Joseph Smith find it necessary to conflate these 2 scriptures and make the seeking of pleasure into something that we should avoid at all cost? In my humble opinion Joseph did the LDS saints a disservice when he made the seeking of pleasure a sin for the Mormon people… Trust me when I say…that life is wonderful when one takes the time to do something that gives them pleasure in this life….and oh the sadness in my heart for those that avoid joy and pleasure…for they have lived only a life unfulfilled. And that is sad. You have taken these scriptures out of context, Johnnie, and thus wrested them from their true meaning, which is a straightforward condemnation by God and his prophets of carnal pleasures for their own sake. The naked hedonism which the pagans have always relished is repeatedly attacked not only by Nephi and Joseph Smith, but also by the rabbis -- who refer to it under the heading "epikoros." However, contrary to your false description, that does not mean that Joseph Smith condemned the seeking of pleasure as sin. In fact, he saw nothing wrong with having good old fashioned clean fun. Joseph himself would play mumbly-peg or wrestle someone in the streets of Nauvoo. The Saints were (and still are) a singing and dancing people, who take great pleasure in children, laughing, and engaging in brave adventure. Does that mean one must engage in binge drinking and beer pong, smoking weed, using roofies, and taking a hit on a crack pipe? For some people, yeh. Mormons think that such rude and crude pagan rites are not actually much fun, and are most often very destructive. For many of the most powerful people in society, epicureanism has become an end in itself, and their greed and avarice know no bounds. They bring shame and ruin on all the rest of us. Spike Lee voiced his opinion that such illicite pleasure-seeking (in the form of booze and drugs) has nearly destroyed his own community, and I spent years observing that very phenomenon up close and personal. The destruction of entire families on a massive scale is all too real. 6
Glenn101 Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 44 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Id like to add....I'm not trying to be bad Johnnie here...I'm trying to talk to the point that pleasure seeking within Mormonism is frowned upon...and that is sad...Life should be lived to its fullest...I guess that is all I am saying. Get out and enjoy Life Johnny, you are talking in extremes and ignoring the teachings of the church. The prophet Lehi taught that "man is that he might have joy." The church teaches moderation in all things but does not teach us to avid pleasure, but to avoid things that may be pleasurable but cause hurt down the road. The Word of Wisdom is a case in point. 2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Trust me when I say…that life is wonderful when one takes the time to do something that gives them pleasure in this life….and oh the sadness in my heart for those that avoid joy and pleasure…for they have lived only a life unfulfilled. And that is sad. I am having an imperfectly wonderful life living under the teachings of the church. The things that I thought I wanted earlier in life have become as "sounding brass and tinkling cymbals" to me, and di so long ago. So, please do not feel too much angst over those whose idea of pleasure and joy may differ from yours. I also would challenge your interpretation of the Isaiah quote. If you read it in context, it appears to be a condemnation of that attitude. I am not sure about the Ecclesiastes quote. It has been a while since I have even thought about it, but it seems to be a sarcastic verse. "because a man hath no better thing under the sun, than to eat, and to drink, and to be merry?" And for a final counter punch, I will quote Proverbs 21:17 He that loveth pleasure shall be a poor man: he that loveth wine and oil shall not be rich." Glenn 1
Johnnie Cake Posted March 8, 2017 Author Posted March 8, 2017 Am I the perfect foil or what? Talk about a testimony builder... 1
carbon dioxide Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Id like to add....I'm not trying to be bad Johnnie here...I'm trying to talk to the point that pleasure seeking within Mormonism is frowned upon...and that is sad...Life should be lived to its fullest...I guess that is all I am saying. Get out and enjoy Life Of course we should enjoy life but understanding that there is an end to this life and we will be accountable for the choices made. A variant of what profits a man to gain the whole world but loses his soul applies here. That being "What profit a man to live life to the fullest and violate the commandments of God in the process and gains eternal damnation as a result. If pleasure is what one seek, they will find it but they need to remember they are on the clock. Lots of people who had a wonderful pleasurable life died in the last 24 hours. The time of fun and games for them has ended and now things have gotten real serious. Edited March 8, 2017 by carbon dioxide
The Nehor Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 7 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: I acknowledge that my point of view on the authorship of the BoM is not shared by the majority of the board members. With respect to Mormonism of teaching asceticism...I completely disagree...all religions including Mormonism teach moderation and temperance in all things but especially the seeking of pleasure What is temperance and moderation? It is keeping the desire for pleasure in check to maximize the pleasure. Someone who overindulges in food, sex, hobbies, television, exercise, or whatever is dulling their ability to enjoy the activity. I enjoy chocolate and my favorite TV show but if I did not practice moderation and temperance in them I would dull my ability to enjoy them. I have done this many times. 7 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Id like to add....I'm not trying to be bad Johnnie here...I'm trying to talk to the point that pleasure seeking within Mormonism is frowned upon...and that is sad...Life should be lived to its fullest...I guess that is all I am saying. Get out and enjoy Life Were you surrounded by miserable Mormons or were they just the only ones you listened to and took seriously? 1
The Nehor Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Am I the perfect foil or what? Talk about a testimony builder... You are the hero we deserve, not the hero we need. 2
Bernard Gui Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Since leaving Mormonism I’ve come to appreciate the wisdom of Epicurus. That by allowing one to enjoy the many pleasures found in a human existence one can truly find happiness and enjoyment. I’m not talking of extremes…like gluttony, exhibiting no self-control, drunkenness or immorality folks…. Simply enjoying the finer things that life has to offer. 8 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: In my humble opinion Joseph did the LDS saints a disservice when he made the seeking of pleasure a sin for the Mormon people… Trust me when I say…that life is wonderful when one takes the time to do something that gives them pleasure in this life….and oh the sadness in my heart for those that avoid joy and pleasure…for they have lived only a life unfulfilled. And that is sad. I just spent 3 days with 6 of my adult children. They snuck in from various parts of the country to surprise me for my 70th birthday. We ate Thai food including a drop-dead good mango mousse (I had 2), went to a Brazilian grill, sat around and talked, took photos, ate some more, saw Moana with the grandkids, and my son Celestino read a hilarious roast poem that they put together from some of our funnier and quirkiest family thingies. I even got a surprisingly pleasant phone call from our addicted PTSD-riddled homeless Afghan War Vet and he was doing ok in Phoenix and may try to get some much needed VA assistance after he does some more wandering around the South. This week I played in the orchestra for Mahler's Songs of a Wayfarer, Mozart Flute Concerto, Beethoven Symphony 9, Hovhaness Symphony 6, and a fiddle piece with the college choir. And I got to direct my orchestra with some Mozart and Arensky bonbons. Sister Gui and I attended our wonderful addiction recovery family support group, had a great interview with a member of the stake presidency, and had a delightful pho lunch and afternoon at Pikes Place Market in Seattle making friends with our very own Stargazer and his wife. At the market I purchased a bottle of ghost pepper paste and a phial of concentrated ghost/scorpion/Carolina reaper pepper extracts to add to my hot sauce collection. Then we had a Sunday night dinner at our son Amazonio's home. We tried some of the new hot stuff. It's still burning. His 12 year old daughter made the best flan I have ever tasted, and I have tasted a lot of flan. Afterwards we did some genealogy with the help of his ward's family history specialists. I'm so happy that I must be the worst Mormon in the world. I feel so guilty that I'm happy that I probably won't be able to show up at church Sunday. I know the bishop would frown on all this wanton pleasure. What can I do to make penance and get right with the Prophet? What am I missing out on, Mr Cake? Edited March 8, 2017 by Bernard Gui 3
Popular Post Kevin Christensen Posted March 8, 2017 Popular Post Posted March 8, 2017 15 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Id like to add....I'm not trying to be bad Johnnie here...I'm trying to talk to the point that pleasure seeking within Mormonism is frowned upon...and that is sad...Life should be lived to its fullest...I guess that is all I am saying. Get out and enjoy Life Another Englishman, one Charles ****ens, famously commented that "The exact adjective for Joseph's religion is 'jolly." (The Uncommercial Traveler.) And then there is the famous passage in 2 Nephi 2, "Men are that they might have joy." And there was The Great Brain himself, telling his Mother that he wanted to be Mormon because it was a happy religion. And Brigham Young, when informed that a celebratory dance commemorating the arrival in the Salt Lake Valley was to end early, who said, "I plan to dance till dawn." I rather think you are being both overly selective and over-generalizing to come up with your view of Mormonism. It's not about whether or not to have pleasure. It's about whether we should have boundaries, and who should define them. FWIW Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA 5
Johnnie Cake Posted March 8, 2017 Author Posted March 8, 2017 (edited) I apologize to the members of this board...I probably overstepped my bounds with this post. I wrote it under the influence of a few drinks...which I thoroughly enjoyed and gained great pleasure from...buzzed not drunk mind you :-) just to put the post in context. The post comes off in the exact arrogant, holier than thou, condescending manner as some of the posts I've come to rail against from other members on this board. So I sincerely apologize. My personal (sober) feelings is that Mormon's do have fun and enjoy their own brand of restrained pleasure within boundaries. Is that what I want a or enjoy...not really but I respect that you do. I do not espouse gluttony, hedonism or boundless free love...ok the free love part many just a little j/k. But rather than delete the post I thought it better to keep it up as a reminder...to myself. cheers Edited March 8, 2017 by Johnnie Cake 3
Ahab Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 Glad to hear you have a little more sense when you are sober, without your booze buzz. I too would enjoy a drink now and then, if I didn't consider ir wiser to be healthier and buzz free. For me the sacrifice is the tastes I enjoyed, before I opted to be healthier. I'm not one who never enjoyed the tastes, which some people do not enjoy.
Tacenda Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 3 minutes ago, Ahab said: Glad to hear you have a little more sense when you are sober, without your booze buzz. I too would enjoy a drink now and then, if I didn't consider ir wiser to be healthier and buzz free. For me the sacrifice is the tastes I enjoyed, before I opted to be healthier. I'm not one who never enjoyed the tastes, which some people do not enjoy. I don't feel like I'd go to heck if I had a drink now, but I don't like to drink. Diet Dr. Pepper is enough for me. Wine, bleh. Hard mixed drinks, bleh. Beer is the only thing I think I could drink, but only after drinking a couple of cans could I drink it, taste wise.
rodheadlee Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 Mormon softball used to bring me great joy back in the 1980s.
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