Musings and Thoughts from My Meeting with Members of the Ex-Mormon Community

[bluebell]

27 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Same here.  

But since my own serious doubts, I reached out to the one who unfriended me. I apologized that I wasn't there for her more during what must have been a difficult time. She said she cried reading it and that she had unfriended because with friends and family being contrary at best and hostile at worst, it was just too much for her.

Now she is supporting me during my pain.

I think it's natural to want to be around people who support our decisions rather than think they are bad, regardless of what the decision is.  Most of the time those who are best at supporting us in our pain are those who have been there before us.  I don't fault people who want to define (for a time) their group of friends based on what beliefs they have in common because it's easier.

The only time it annoys me is when I hear how much the LDS church and it's members shun those who leave.  I have no doubt at all that there are members out there who shun those who leave (probably for the same reason that those who leave sometimes shun those who stay) but I don't think it's the norm, and neither is it a teaching of the church.

[Tacenda]

33 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think it's natural to want to be around people who support our decisions rather than think they are bad, regardless of what the decision is.  Most of the time those who are best at supporting us in our pain are those who have been there before us.  I don't fault people who want to define (for a time) their group of friends based on what beliefs they have in common because it's easier.

The only time it annoys me is when I hear how much the LDS church and it's members shun those who leave.  I have no doubt at all that there are members out there who shun those who leave (probably for the same reason that those who leave sometimes shun those who stay) but I don't think it's the norm, and neither is it a teaching of the church.

The church would never condone the shunning. But it feels like there is a divide. I recently watched the live session with Elder Holland and President Eyring in Palmyra. http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormon-youth-talk-with-apostles-at-first-vision-site 

There was a question on how to handle friends and family that leave the church. They were advised to just love them, which is wonderful but the questioner was also worried about their salvation or if they'll be in heaven with them. I was surprised that Holland or Eyring didn't mention that they'd still go to heaven. Right there it felt like a big shun, in a worse way. But I may just be out there in my summation of what I viewed.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, rongo said:

 

Much of it has a factual basis, but it's very "Mike Norton-ized," like you said. Context is key, and where the man is himself plays a role.

I assume you know there are a number of CES letter responses.  I, of course, like FM's.  The info graphic is useful, imo, to point out while there are indeed facts in Runnell's discussion, they are embedded in a greater mix of quite biased material.

In my view, the key need is to ease the sense of panic and drive to immediately figure it all out and instead shift the need to know NOW to needing to know 'well'; shift from just getting the one right result to a desire to do life the right way or as close as we can get to it.   The process is of extreme importance to the destination.  Even in physical journeys, traveling in the right way is necessary to travel the right way.  Taking shortcuts in preparation, skipping study (of maps, expenses, government requirements), not taking the right materials with us impact not only if we will ever arrive at the right destination, but what we can do once we are there (skipping visas might get us to the right place faster, but limit our options when we get there and in certain places, could cause us to be sitting in prison rather than seeing the sights or working that new job; thinking we can find a motel when we get there may have us having to skip the vacation completely if when we arrive we find out all the places are booked up...always call ahead yourself, my honeymoon was kind of a drag because we relied on a friend's recommendation for a small and sweet and inexpensive little place, it was quite clean, but drab in the rooms and without any conveniences at the same price as reasonable modern motels, but we had to stick it out for three days because middle of the busy season and everywhere was full).

using a few examples of how those same facts can be presented in a faithful context (recognizing the shift in perspective is, in part, a shift in bias) and that the important thing is to stop, take a breath, there is no reason for panic because while one might if one takes time and examines each criticism from the critic and the believer positions, one might choose to believe the critic primarily, there are enough examples out there of intelligent, thoughtful people like yourself who have been able to process all the issues in a coherent, intelligent, rational way.  One isn't automatically doomed to disbelief.  Giving oneself permission to take time to sincerely and thoughtful examine the issues and not feel forced to decide now what one believes out of fear of doing the wrong thing...either in continuing to support a fraud or in throwing away the truth (and all variations in between)...is crucial, imo, to having the best outcome for oneself and one's family.  It is another education moment.  Just as university likely took years to help prepare him for a career, even if most of it was not directly relevant to his career, if he was willing to invest massive amount of time and money to preparing for what affects the next 75 years of his life, it is wisdom to invest that kind of time and intention to preparing for what will not only affect the rest of his and his family's life, but potentially a good chunk of the next one as well.  If he makes a sincere mistake here, I have no doubt God will allow him to follow a path to correct it, but it won't happen overnight.  We all are going to have to invest the time eventually, why not up front so it has the best and longest impact possible.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Calm

[bluebell]

47 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

The church would never condone the shunning. But it feels like there is a divide. I recently watched the live session with Elder Holland and President Eyring in Palmyra. http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormon-youth-talk-with-apostles-at-first-vision-site 

There was a question on how to handle friends and family that leave the church. They were advised to just love them, which is wonderful but the questioner was also worried about their salvation or if they'll be in heaven with them. I was surprised that Holland or Eyring didn't mention that they'd still go to heaven. Right there it felt like a big shun, in a worse way. But I may just be out there in my summation of what I viewed.

How could Eyering and Holland, knowing absolutely nothing about someone they had never met, judge that they would go to heaven or not?  It's practically impossible in most situations to judge that for people we do know.  It would be dumb to try to judge it for people we don't. 

 

[carbon dioxide]

58 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

The church would never condone the shunning. But it feels like there is a divide. I recently watched the live session with Elder Holland and President Eyring in Palmyra. http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormon-youth-talk-with-apostles-at-first-vision-site 

There was a question on how to handle friends and family that leave the church. They were advised to just love them, which is wonderful but the questioner was also worried about their salvation or if they'll be in heaven with them. I was surprised that Holland or Eyring didn't mention that they'd still go to heaven. Right there it felt like a big shun, in a worse way. But I may just be out there in my summation of what I viewed.

Why would they still go to heaven?  If the Church is true and I would suggest that Holland and Eyring believe it is, it is an incredibly serious problem if one chooses to leave.  To even suggest that they could still go to heaven (my interpretation of that is Celestial Glory) would basically to make membership in the church optional and not required.  It would destroy the entire premise for the Church existing.  I can't think of one scripture that suggests one can leave the Church and it does not matter.  Perhaps one can attain the Terrestrial kingdom and if that is all one desires, then perhaps they can attain it but the Celestial Kingdom is off the table.

Edited March 8, 2017 by carbon dioxide

[Rain]

3 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Well...Let me introduce myself.  I have personally experienced shunning from members of the church.  In one public shunning that comes to mind, I was in our local grocery store, soon after I left the church.  As I was walking down one of the shopping isles, a friend and former member of the same high council both of us had served together on entered the isle from the other end.  As soon as our eyes met, he turned around and walked the other direction.  I was quite takin back from the shunning.  I get that it was probably an awkward moment for both of us...but it was such an obvious calculated action on his part.  The sad part is that he died recently...and we never did have a conversation after that interaction in the store.  I could give additional examples but this will suffice.

See that's the thing.  It was obvious in your point of view, but we know nothing from his.

One day my mom told me a woman in our ward had seen me on campus and I looked at her and didn't say anything - twice. She wondered why I was mad at her. 

I don't recall ever seeing her on campus. At all. My mind must have been on something else.

So maybe he did shun you.  Maybe he felt awkward and turned away from you. But just maybe his mind was on something else and he did not realize you were there and went the other way because he forgot something in the other direction.

I know that must have hurt and I understand why you feel about it the way you do, but I also have to see it from my experience, since he is no longer around to verify what he felt at the moment, and say we just don't know if he shunned you or not. 

I'm not asking you to give examples.  I'm sure shunning does happen and it should stop! I'm also sure that sometimes it is just a lack of communication. 

[carbon dioxide]

3 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

 As I was walking down one of the shopping isles, a friend and former member of the same high council both of us had served together on entered the isle from the other end.  As soon as our eyes met, he turned around and walked the other direction.  I was quite takin back from the shunning.  I get that it was probably an awkward moment for both of us...but it was such an obvious calculated action on his part.  The sad part is that he died recently...and we never did have a conversation after that interaction in the store.  I could give additional examples but this will suffice.

This does not add up to me.  If he stood there and looked at you for a period of time and then walked away that would suggest to me as something as calculated.  What you said was an action that was not calculated.  Perhaps he saw you, got immediately uncomfortable at that moment and did not want to deal with the situation and turned away.  That is an action more of impulse than one of calculation in my estimation. Your problem is you are placing what you might do in that situation and deciding others would do the same thing. 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

How could Eyering and Holland, knowing absolutely nothing about someone they had never met, judge that they would go to heaven or not?  It's practically impossible in most situations to judge that for people we do know.  It would be dumb to try to judge it for people we don't. 

 

Well, you're right, but I thought of it more on the lines that our faith is the most loving and that we just have kingdoms, not hell. Or do we? I know that it's a wishy washy doctrine. Some mention of it in our scripture, but not really in our Sunday School or General Conference discussion.

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Well, you're right, but I thought of it more on the lines that our faith is the most loving and that we just have kingdoms, not hell. Or do we? I know that it's a wishy washy doctrine. Some mention of it in our scripture, but not really in our Sunday School or General Conference discussion.

We understand that there is a Hell and lots of other places, too.  Pretty much the best and worst that you can imagine.  And with Hell being just a place where people go temporary, if they have to go there, except for people who prefer to stay there forever.  Not many of us would really want to stay there forever, though. And yet it will always be there for people as another one of the many places where they can go.

[CV75]

On 3/6/2017 at 0:17 PM, Johnnie Cake said:

So should the church go after the 1 or stay with the 99? Should they even risk the attempt? Are these former believers even worth the effort it would take to attempt such a massive task?

As the parable goes, there is more joy when the one repents and returns the fold with the ninety and nine where joy is a contribution made by each soul (Luke 15:7). Not everyone who leaves the Church has simply wandered off, but has done so with a good deal of thought, and so is not amenable to being found. And the greater the intent, the less the inclination to repent.

I think the solution for this kind of sheep is preventative in nature, or to minister to him while his thinking and intent begins to run contrary to faith. I think this is accomplished not by leaving the ninety and nine, but by staying with and strengthening the group and drawing him to it. That way those with the answers he needs to resolve his doubt* will be identified as healthy relationships are fostered. This is a two-way proposition of course, so the one who feels different has to overcome that and those around him need to facilitate that.

*The "answers he needs to resolve his doubt" are not necessarily rational. Love is powerful, the Spirit is powerful, etc. The skills of mature, disciplined and rational processing are also powerful, and these must often be shared by trusted preceptors, because the needy often do not develop these skills overnight and require some mentoring.

[rongo]

It's not that the doctrine is wishy-washy, it's mainly that LDS members (who should know better) treat it in the sectarian sense of "heaven and hell." 

I had a member (a bishop's daughter, and a seminary graduate) ask me what a person had to do to go to hell. When I asked her what she meant by "hell," she said, "Well, you know. Not heaven." A three-hour talk ensued, and I reminded her about the kingdoms and our expanded understanding of "heaven" and "hell." She was ultimately excommunicated (she was asking because she had very serious things to repent of), but didn't have a good understanding of the Mormon view on the afterlife. And it wasn't that she hadn't been taught --- she reverted to a very sectarian, binary heaven/hell view. 

A lot of Mormons who have been taught differently and know better do. 

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Rain said:

See that's the thing.  It was obvious in your point of view, but we know nothing from his.

One day my mom told me a woman in our ward had seen me on campus and I looked at her and didn't say anything - twice. She wondered why I was mad at her. 

I don't recall ever seeing her on campus. At all. My mind must have been on something else.

So maybe he did shun you.  Maybe he felt awkward and turned away from you. But just maybe his mind was on something else and he did not realize you were there and went the other way because he forgot something in the other direction.

I know that must have hurt and I understand why you feel about it the way you do, but I also have to see it from my experience, since he is no longer around to verify what he felt at the moment, and say we just don't know if he shunned you or not. 

I'm not asking you to give examples.  I'm sure shunning does happen and it should stop! I'm also sure that sometimes it is just a lack of communication. 

I feel as if I'm in the middle, where I can't win either way. I'm not to the point of hanging out with groups that are atheist/anti and I'm not relating to the TBM's. My disillusionment with the church has caused me to be in a state of limbo. No one really shunning, but no one really trying to include me either. I was with a group of mostly ex LDS on a private FB page. But left the group, I can't relate well with them, and I can't relate well with the TBM because I'm on the fence. I use to think the LDS were much more friendly when I was on the inside, but now that I'm more an outsider I see that it's usually because of a calling that the LDS will try to reach out. Not trying to get attention here, but I've never been more lonely in my life, ever. Rain, you've reached out to me a number of times and I so appreciate it. I have your message about contacting you and I will if needed.

 

[california boy]

4 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Why would they still go to heaven?  If the Church is true and I would suggest that Holland and Eyring believe it is, it is an incredibly serious problem if one chooses to leave.  To even suggest that they could still go to heaven (my interpretation of that is Celestial Glory) would basically to make membership in the church optional and not required.  It would destroy the entire premise for the Church existing.  I can't think of one scripture that suggests one can leave the Church and it does not matter.  Perhaps one can attain the Terrestrial kingdom and if that is all one desires, then perhaps they can attain it but the Celestial Kingdom is off the table.

So that either means that 99.999% of the worlds population will not go to the celestial kingdom.  Or they will all have the opportunity in the next life to embrace the gospel and enter the celestial kingdom.  Or it means that if you join the church while here on earth, then you are damned forever for joining and then having a problem with Joseph Smith marrying 14 year olds or using a peep stone to translate the BoM.  

So which is it.  Should you not risk joining the church and falling away because of unbelief, bringing damnation to your soul?  Or are only Mormons who are faithful their whole earth life entitled to celestial glory?

[carbon dioxide]

17 minutes ago, california boy said:

So that either means that 99.999% of the worlds population will not go to the celestial kingdom.  Or they will all have the opportunity in the next life to embrace the gospel and enter the celestial kingdom.  Or it means that if you join the church while here on earth, then you are damned forever for joining and then having a problem with Joseph Smith marrying 14 year olds or using a peep stone to translate the BoM.  

So which is it.  Should you not risk joining the church and falling away because of unbelief, bringing damnation to your soul?  Or are only Mormons who are faithful their whole earth life entitled to celestial glory?

Nope.  Kids under 8 and those people who would have accepted the gospel in mortality had they been able go.  So a good number of people will be there.   Many people can find any excuse in the world to reject the gospel. If someone is going to reject the BOM because Joseph used a seer stone, that is on them.  If someone is going to complain about Joseph being sealed to a 14 year old (when that 14 year old and the family ect did not seem to have a big problem with it) that is on them.  That is going to be one thing I hope to see.  Joseph and Helen standing before people who complained about their relationship and them ripping those people to shreds for making judgements that they had no right to do let alone had virtually no knowledge of the specifics regarding their relationship.  That will be fun to watch. 

To enter the Celestial Kingdom, one must follow the rules and we don't make them.  One of the purposes of life is for us to see if we will do all the things the Lord commands us.  It's not an competition to see how well we can get around the commandments of God.  We can all come up with excuses but the Lord is not interested in our creative excuses but our obedience.  Membership in the Lord's church has its privileges  

 

 

[california boy]

4 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Nope.  Kids under 8 and those people who would have accepted the gospel in mortality had they been able go.  So a good number of people will be there.   Many people can find any excuse in the world to reject the gospel. If someone is going to reject the BOM because Joseph used a seer stone, that is on them.  If someone is going to complain about Joseph being sealed to a 14 year old (when that 14 year old and the family ect did not seem to have a big problem with it) that is on them.  That is going to be one thing I hope to see.  Joseph and Helen standing before people who complained about their relationship and them ripping those people to shreds for making judgements that they had no right to do let alone had virtually no knowledge of the specifics regarding their relationship.  That will be fun to watch. 

To enter the Celestial Kingdom, one must follow the rules and we don't make them.  One of the purposes of life is for us to see if we will do all the things the Lord commands us.  It's not an competition to see how well we can get around the commandments of God.  We can all come up with excuses but the Lord is not interested in our creative excuses but our obedience.  Membership in the Lord's church has its privileges  

 

 

Well I guess my life has already been tried, judged and sentenced before I even die simply because I am gay and choose to share my life with someone I love.  I flunked the test and fell in love.  Shame on me.  Now my soul is damned forever.  Good to know my eternity is all laid out for me and my relationship with God is of no value.  

I rue the day that at 8 years old, I ignorantly damned my soul forever by stepping foot in a baptismal font only to find out at age 12 that I was gay.  If my parents had only been FLDS, or Westborough Baptist i would still have had a chance at Celestial glory.  But no,  I am cursed for eternity for being born into a Mormon family.  

[Rain]

2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Nope.  Kids under 8 and those people who would have accepted the gospel in mortality had they been able go.  So a good number of people will be there.   Many people can find any excuse in the world to reject the gospel. If someone is going to reject the BOM because Joseph used a seer stone, that is on them.  If someone is going to complain about Joseph being sealed to a 14 year old (when that 14 year old and the family ect did not seem to have a big problem with it) that is on them.  That is going to be one thing I hope to see.  Joseph and Helen standing before people who complained about their relationship and them ripping those people to shreds for making judgements that they had no right to do let alone had virtually no knowledge of the specifics regarding their relationship.  That will be fun to watch. 

To enter the Celestial Kingdom, one must follow the rules and we don't make them.  One of the purposes of life is for us to see if we will do all the things the Lord commands us.  It's not an competition to see how well we can get around the commandments of God.  We can all come up with excuses but the Lord is not interested in our creative excuses but our obedience.  Membership in the Lord's church has its privileges  

 

 

We don't have any authority to make those judgments on someone else.  To know if they had enough knowledge and understanding to make the choices to follow the rules.  We know those under 8 do not have enough understanding to make the choices.  We have no idea for those over 8.  Those that come closest are bishops over their own ward members and I suspect that most, if not all of them, are grateful that Christ has that final say since He is the only one who could fully know what is in the heart. 

Edited March 9, 2017 by Rain

[MiserereNobis]

On 3/6/2017 at 0:55 PM, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Also, people and Preacher or Pastors and deacons leave other Churches all the time, but those who no longer attend do not obsesse over percentages and call them droves. They don't hav support groups, and whine about how bad the Church is. Also, when I see threads like this that list callings of persons in leadership, it seems it is for the purpose of making others question their faith as well. Not to mention the county and "front" that is the most Mormon are on the planet. 

There are plenty of ex-Catholic support groups, nasty forums, protests, whining, lists of famous Catholics who have left the Faith, etc.  Just google "former catholic support groups"

 

[MiserereNobis]

On 3/7/2017 at 0:56 PM, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

The Catholic Church (especially) does not call people to be Bishops, as Bishops and Priests must go through Catholic seminary and be ordained...and rely on the Church for food, shelter and money. So in this case...unlike our Faith, what "most of their life" you (we) speaking of? 

You don't understand how much priests and bishops do if you think their life is easy because the Diocese provides their sustenance.  And while it is true that they do not receive a "call" from the Church like in Mormonism, they receive a call from God that is often difficult to discern and accept.

Being called of God to the Priesthood for your entire life in the Catholic Church is quite different than being called to be a bishop or stake president in the LDS church.  Think of it more like being called to be a general authority, where for their rest of your life all of your life is given to the church.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

You don't understand how much priests and bishops do if you think their life is easy because the Diocese provides their sustenance.  And while it is true that they do not receive a "call" from the Church like in Mormonism, they receive a call from God that is often difficult to discern and accept.

Being called of God to the Priesthood for your entire life in the Catholic Church is quite different than being called to be a bishop or stake president in the LDS church.  Think of it more like being called to be a general authority, where for their rest of your life all of your life is given to the church.

When I was about 12, (8th grade) I went to a Catholic seminary to see if I wanted to start high school there, remaining through college and go straight into the priesthood.  I was trying to determine my vocation.  For those who do not understand the system, let me just say that some decide to go into the seminary that early and essentially seminary becomes like a religious boarding school.

I prayed about it repeatedly very sincerely.  It was clear to me I was called to the priesthood.  But then I prayed about whether or not I was called to be married.   I was certain I was called to be married as well.  I was a very confused little boy.  I was certain I was called to both.

Fast forward 20 years, through college, student radicalism, atheism and a re-awakening spirituality during which I discovered Mormonism.  I went for a random drive up the California coast pondering this Mormonism thing, not caring or noticing where I was going, turning right, left, getting on the freeway, getting off- just pondering while driving.

I found myself at the same seminary where I had prayed 20 years before!!  I didn't even know where it was- I could not have found it if I had wanted to!  Kids don't know directions especially in distant cities

I went into that same chapel and prayed again about becoming Mormon.  My answer was very strong and unmistakenable- I was to be a Mormon and was called to that was well as being both a "priest" AND a father- just not the kind of priest I had prayed about becoming earlier. THAT now was 37 years ago.

Ironically, that is no longer a seminary for reasons I will not detail.  That church is not occupied by a Catholic organization and congregation which allows priests to be married, and a community has been organized around that theology.  And yes, I know about the history of celibacy and as a Catholic had considered becoming Byzantine Rite which allows marriage.

I just found out about that new community meeting there and found it VERY ironic, considering my experiences in that very church.  That is a story no one could dream up!

http://st-anthony-community.org/our-story/

Edit- addition

And I must admit for a while I frequented Catholic fora doing the same things ex-Mormons do here.   That is kind of a confession- I am not at all proud of that behavior, but I do understand it

Edited March 9, 2017 by mfbukowski

[carbon dioxide]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

Well I guess my life has already been tried, judged and sentenced before I even die simply because I am gay and choose to share my life with someone I love.  I flunked the test and fell in love.  Shame on me.  Now my soul is damned forever.  Good to know my eternity is all laid out for me and my relationship with God is of no value.  

I rue the day that at 8 years old, I ignorantly damned my soul forever by stepping foot in a baptismal font only to find out at age 12 that I was gay.  If my parents had only been FLDS, or Westborough Baptist i would still have had a chance at Celestial glory.  But no,  I am cursed for eternity for being born into a Mormon family.  

We are judged by our choices, not the circumstances we are born in.  Salvation is open to all and for those who hear the gospel and know it they have to make a choice.  Do they want salvation and the things that come with it including certain sacrifices or do they chose things over salvation.  If you flunk the test, it is because that is what you choose to do deciding something else instead.  That truth is the same for me and everyone else.  If you were born and raised in another faith, it would not matter.  The D&C says all those who would have received the gospel in mortality if they had the chance would be heirs of celestial glory.  God knows if a person if born in church X but would reject the gospel after being presented because of issue X or Y,  God knows the heart perfectly and what issues they place first in their lives.  So in a case that you describe, I would say it does not matter if one is born in the church or not.  There is no curse on you being born in the church or not.  Its not relevant.   In the end, it all comes down to our choices and nobody decides them but us. If a person chooses something in life over God, they will enjoy the benefits of that choice for a while but eventually it all comes to an end and then negatives of not placing God first begin to kick in. 

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Why would they still go to heaven?  If the Church is true and I would suggest that Holland and Eyring believe it is, it is an incredibly serious problem if one chooses to leave.  To even suggest that they could still go to heaven (my interpretation of that is Celestial Glory) would basically to make membership in the church optional and not required.  It would destroy the entire premise for the Church existing.  I can't think of one scripture that suggests one can leave the Church and it does not matter.  Perhaps one can attain the Terrestrial kingdom and if that is all one desires, then perhaps they can attain it but the Celestial Kingdom is off the table.

This is presuming God is not a loving father who realizes that earth life is hard and people make mistakes and make incorrect judgements in trying to do what they think is right

It is an authoritarian and fundamentalist way of looking at the forgiving, loving, Gospel of Jesus Christ which tells us even those who never heard of Christ will have an honest opportunity to make the right decisions after they have received a sufficient amount of information to make an informed decision, and will receive the ordinances they need.

In other words, it is a false caricature of the gospel.

Membership in the church IS obviously optional since we know so many non-members will also be able to go to the celestial kingdom and even non-believers will have the same opportunity as church members do.

To believe what you have stated here would void all familiy history work and temple work.

It is obviously false

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, california boy said:

So that either means that 99.999% of the worlds population will not go to the celestial kingdom.  Or they will all have the opportunity in the next life to embrace the gospel and enter the celestial kingdom.  Or it means that if you join the church while here on earth, then you are damned forever for joining and then having a problem with Joseph Smith marrying 14 year olds or using a peep stone to translate the BoM.  

So which is it.  Should you not risk joining the church and falling away because of unbelief, bringing damnation to your soul?  Or are only Mormons who are faithful their whole earth life entitled to celestial glory?

False, fundamentalist, authoritarian garbage

See above

Your reasoning is ridiculous.  You give two alternatives in the first and second sentence including the possibility that all will have an opportunity to embrace the gospel in the next life, then you remove that possibility with no reason for doing so in the rest of the post

It is hateful nonsense.

Edited March 9, 2017 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

17 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

We are judged by our choices, not the circumstances we are born in.  Salvation is open to all and for those who hear the gospel and know it they have to make a choice.  Do they want salvation and the things that come with it including certain sacrifices or do they chose things over salvation.  If you flunk the test, it is because that is what you choose to do deciding something else instead.  That truth is the same for me and everyone else.  If you were born and raised in another faith, it would not matter.  The D&C says all those who would have received the gospel in mortality if they had the chance would be heirs of celestial glory.  God knows if a person if born in church X but would reject the gospel after being presented because of issue X or Y,  God knows the heart perfectly and what issues they place first in their lives.  So in a case that you describe, I would say it does not matter if one is born in the church or not.  There is no curse on you being born in the church or not.  Its not relevant.   In the end, it all comes down to our choices and nobody decides them but us. If a person chooses something in life over God, they will enjoy the benefits of that choice for a while but eventually it all comes to an end and then negatives of not placing God first begin to kick in. 

Here you seem to reverse your previous position.   If I have judged your position incorrectly, I apologize, but this post seems to contradict your previous post.  I am confused

[Meadowchik]

6 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Nope.  Kids under 8 and those people who would have accepted the gospel in mortality had they been able go.  So a good number of people will be there.   Many people can find any excuse in the world to reject the gospel. If someone is going to reject the BOM because Joseph used a seer stone, that is on them.  If someone is going to complain about Joseph being sealed to a 14 year old (when that 14 year old and the family ect did not seem to have a big problem with it) that is on them.  That is going to be one thing I hope to see.  Joseph and Helen standing before people who complained about their relationship and them ripping those people to shreds for making judgements that they had no right to do let alone had virtually no knowledge of the specifics regarding their relationship.  That will be fun to watch. 

To enter the Celestial Kingdom, one must follow the rules and we don't make them.  One of the purposes of life is for us to see if we will do all the things the Lord commands us.  It's not an competition to see how well we can get around the commandments of God.  We can all come up with excuses but the Lord is not interested in our creative excuses but our obedience.  Membership in the Lord's church has its privileges  

 

 

God is not a deciever.  Do you really believe God would let little children sign a contract and then make them accountable for things not in the contract for the rest of their lives and all eternity?

I give God more credit than that. My faith is bigger than that.

 

[california boy]

9 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

 If you were born and raised in another faith, it would not matter.  The D&C says all those who would have received the gospel in mortality if they had the chance would be heirs of celestial glory.  God knows if a person if born in church X but would reject the gospel after being presented because of issue X or Y,  God knows the heart perfectly and what issues they place first in their lives.  So in a case that you describe, I would say it does not matter if one is born in the church or not.  There is no curse on you being born in the church or not.  Its not relevant.   In the end, it all comes down to our choices and nobody decides them but us. If a person chooses something in life over God, they will enjoy the benefits of that choice for a while but eventually it all comes to an end and then negatives of not placing God first begin to kick in. 

Well then my fate was sealed the day I realized I was gay.  I trusted church leaders more than the whisperings of the Spirit when they told  me that if I would only marry a woman, then I would loose my desire to be with a man.  It brought nothing but heartache and emptiness.  The contrast between that time of my life and the peace within my soul now tells me a different story.

I sometimes envision walking up to the gates of heaven.  There in front are Mormons with their neon signs just like during the Prop 8 days.  Written in big leaders are "NO GAYS IN HEAVEN".  Only to find out that God's love is bigger than dogma.  Who knows.  Maybe there will be a city in heaven with a big wall around it and only Mormons and those that would have been Mormon if only given the chance in mortality are allowed in.  But for me, the gay ghetto will be much more fabulous no matter where I find it.  I believe we can all create our own little bit of heaven no matter where we are.  So if this Mormon Celestial Kingdom is walled off from the rest of us, then what does it really matter.  I have found happiness outside the Mormon church in this life.  I will find happiness outside the walled kingdom of Mormonism in the next life as well.