Musings and Thoughts from My Meeting with Members of the Ex-Mormon Community

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So what current doctrines (as opposed to Church policies) are false or incorrect?

Are you also going to give him a glass with a pitcher of water to make him comfortable on his soap box?

Sheesh. I feel a bit jealous.

Are you also going to give me a turn to talk about how the Church is filled with people who make mistakes, sometimes, including labeling what is true as false?

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

So what current doctrines (as opposed to Church policies) are false or incorrect?

That's a million dollar question that will only be resolved in time as we grow or build upon that which we have.  I'm not saying I don't have my ideas.   To think we've got some solid impenetrable philosophic force seems naïve.  No one's perfect and the Church's doctrine must evolve from its birth as we go little by little and step by step.  That's my take anyway.  There's nothing infallible about what we preach on Sundays nor what we hear at Conference time. 

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

Who is not joining or staying with the Church because an incorrect doctrine is being taught who might join or stay if the doctrine were changed?

the Church's reach is so small it can't even produce a measely line on a pie chart, if you compare active LDS to world population.  Sure there's growth in the Church, but as of last record that percentage we just mentioned (showing on a pie chart) is shrinking.  I'm hopeful things change.  I'm hopeful people all around the world feel a warm embrace from a Church that means more than the current one does.  If that ever happens I think people will flood in and sure people will still leave, but hopefully that do so with less difficulty and turmoil and as a percentage less leave overall. 

 

[JLHPROF]

Just now, Ahab said:

Are you also going to give him a glass with a pitcher of water to make him comfortable on his soap box?

Sheesh. I feel a bit jealous.

Are you also going to give me a turn to talk about how the Church is filled with people who make mistakes, sometimes, including labeling what is true as false?

Just looking for an alternate perspective.  If someone feels the Church should change doctrines that may be false to appear more inclusive to people I would like to know what those might be.
Goodness knows there are changes the Church has already made that I consider to be incorrect.  Further changes would seem even more ill advised.

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Are you also going to give him a glass with a pitcher of water to make him comfortable on his soap box?

Sheesh. I feel a bit jealous.

Are you also going to give me a turn to talk about how the Church is filled with people who make mistakes, sometimes, including labeling what is true as false?

Well sure, even that apostles and prophets see through a glass darkly, while drawing errant conclusions.  We've seen it in the past, it likely happens now, and it'll continue to happen.  We're imperfect and simply can't see big enough to draw too many conclusions, but as it turns out, we're quick to do so. 

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Just looking for an alternate perspective.  If someone feels the Church should change doctrines that may be false to appear more inclusive to people I would like to know what those might be.
Goodness knows there are changes the Church has already made that I consider to be incorrect.  Further changes would seem even more ill advised.

In some ways, I guess, you and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum.  your view seems rigid, unforgiving and in effect useless.  no offense (hah).  But I appreciate your consistency and openness. 

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

the Church's reach is so small it can't even produce a measely line on a pie chart, if you compare active LDS to world population.  Sure there's growth in the Church, but as of last record that percentage we just mentioned (showing on a pie chart) is shrinking.

I just don't see why this is considered an issue.  LDS teachings on this subject are pretty clear.  All will have the opportunity to accept the gospel.  Not all will ever accept the gospel.  The size of Church membership doesn't matter, nor does growth.

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I just don't see why this is considered an issue.  LDS teachings on this subject are pretty clear.  All will have the opportunity to accept the gospel.  Not all will ever accept the gospel.  The size of Church membership doesn't matter, nor does growth.

It just shows how few in the world accept the gospel, or how little they accept of the gospel. I wouldn't say the number who do or don't doesn't matter, though.  I think of a learning curve and how so many are near the bottom while the most faithful are on or near the top.

[Meadowchik]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

The main problem to be solved is: to whom should we go to be saved?

Seriously, that is the crux of the issue.

Someone at some Mormon recovery group, or someone in the Church, or to the only person we should go to be saved?

The Church doesn't and can not save us.

The Church is the people who are saved and we don't have anyone who can save us but Jesus.

Let's try not to pretend away church teachings, okay?

(I think what you're doing is an example of gaslighting.)

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

With Jesus and our Father giving us our answers on the issues we have questions about, yes, they will be relevant to specific context but may also be, at least sometimes, universal.

And I believe they are the best authorities to appeal to for answers.

I'm hesitant to call anything except maybe some very broad basic morals/ethics as universal.  Things like love and forgiveness and service.  

As for which authorities are most able to provide answers to these questions, I sincerely think that Mormon church leaders have absolutely no advantage to providing answers to these questions than anyone else, in fact I tend to think that answers to these kinds of questions don't come from someone telling you the answer, they come more from experiencing the answers and receiving insights as we pass through experience and increase our awareness.  

Edited March 6, 2017 by hope_for_things

[stemelbow]

13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I just don't see why this is considered an issue.  LDS teachings on this subject are pretty clear.  All will have the opportunity to accept the gospel.  Not all will ever accept the gospel.  The size of Church membership doesn't matter, nor does growth.

I think it matters.  I'm told at Church I'm blessed to be in the Church.  If it doesn't matter then what are we to make of Church membership?  Granted I don't feel particularly blessed for it--indeed I question whether it really matters to God at this point.  But I'd say that's largely because the Church hasn't embraced God quite like we should.  But we're learning, hopefully.  In truth the Church needs more, so we can take our steps to goodness, usefulness and truth all the more quickly--can't we call this hastening the work?  The Church needs more to add to what we have.  At the current model, we're only willing to accept those who conform and thus fail to receive the vast greatness God wants to give to us through the strength and accomplishments of others. 

The Church grows in influence and increases in health by virtue of the strength of its members not its leadership.

[stemelbow]

10 minutes ago, Ahab said:

It just shows how few in the world accept the gospel, or how little they accept of the gospel. I wouldn't say the number who do or don't doesn't matter, though.  I think of a learning curve and how so many are near the bottom while the most faithful are on or near the top.

ugh...Not a view I appreciate.  God doesnt' look upon us with favor.  So many don't join the Church because the Church can't embrace other perspectives, particularly other world views, very well.  It's not that they reject God nor what is really His gospel.  On another note it seems obvious the Church has added to what is simply that which people ought to accept to be a part of his Church.  This is exactly what their is an unseen Church that really embraces people, but we can't see well enough to know what that is or who is in and out. 

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, Meadowchik said:

Let's try not to pretend away church teachings, okay?

(I think what you're doing is an example of gaslighting.)

My point is more along the line of thought that we should get our testImoney of truth from God, rather than trusting what Church leaders tell us, or what some Mormon recovery group leaders tells us.  

There is only one person who can save us and we should look to him as our Savior rather than hoping someone else will or can do what only he can do to save us.

 

[Ahab]

8 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm hesitant to call anything except maybe some very broad basic morals/ethics as universal.  Things like love and forgiveness and service.  

As for which authorities are most able to provide answers to these questions, I sincerely think that Mormon church leaders have absolutely no advantage to providing answers to these questions than anyone else, in fact I tend to think that answers to these kinds of questions don't come from someone telling you the answer, they come more from experiencing the answers and receiving insights as we pass through experience and increase our awareness.  

I'm proposIng that all of us look to God as our authority, relying on him through Jesus, instead of anyone else.  Or at least that when we do rely on someone other than Jesus that we do so only because we know Jesus has told us to rely on someone other than him as someone who is speaking for him.

Not taking any Church leader's word just because he says so, or because other mortals agree with him, with the same attitude toward "Mormon Recovery" group leaders or anyone other than Jesus.

 

[Meadowchik]

3 minutes ago, Ahab said:

My point is more along the line of thought that we should get our testImoney of truth from God, rather than trusting what Church leaders tell us, or what some Mormon recovery group leaders tells us.  

There is only one person who can save us and we should look to him as our Savior rather than hoping someone else will or can do what only he can do to save us.

 

I cannot disagree with your last sentence but then, obviously you are left with the question of how the church can be of any use in the first place. 

Consider this: those who've taken part in Church have been immersed in the concept of church activity, or "enduring to the end,"  being integral to their personal salvation. 

It should be of no surprise, then, that many benefit from the support of other humans who affirm that yes, they're not crazy, where they are assured that, yes, Christ alone is the author and mediator of their salvation.

There is a reason that some online groups for exMormons include suicide hotlines on their home pages. You may never understand that anguish and turmoil unless you experience it yourself. Realising your mind has been conditioned a certain way and feeling that you may not ever feel comfortable with what you are honestly convinced is true and right (leaving the Church) can be horrible.

[JLHPROF]

24 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

At the current model, we're only willing to accept those who conform and thus fail to receive the vast greatness God wants to give to us through the strength and accomplishments of others.

The gospel is all about conforming.  That has been God's goal and Christ's example.
The problem is for some reason people no longer think they need to.

Edited March 6, 2017 by JLHPROF

[hope_for_things]

28 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Let's try not to pretend away church teachings, okay?

(I think what you're doing is an example of gaslighting.)

I would agree with you that the church teaches that it contains exclusive authority for saving ordinances.  To me this is one of the heresies of Mormonism.  I also believe that Christianity at large claims exclusive authority for saving teachings through Jesus, and I also think that this is heretical.  Personally I don't believe that any religion has a corner on salvation.  Also, I don't like the mainstream contemporary definition of salvation as something that you receive in the next life.  I like the idea of salvation as some theologians like Marcus Borg have described as a process of transformation of self, a death of the old self and being born into a new creature, but this doesn't happen with one experience alone, it is an ongoing process.  

Anyway, I think those ideas of transformational salvation not being exclusive to any institution as consistent with a reading of gospel teachings, but whenever you get institutions that claim exclusive authority to these things, that is a concept I find antithetical to the overarching message of the gospel, and why I call it a heresy.  

[Ahab]

18 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

ugh...Not a view I appreciate.  God doesnt' look upon us with favor.  So many don't join the Church because the Church can't embrace other perspectives, particularly other world views, very well.  It's not that they reject God nor what is really His gospel.  On another note it seems obvious the Church has added to what is simply that which people ought to accept to be a part of his Church.  This is exactly what their is an unseen Church that really embraces people, but we can't see well enough to know what that is or who is in and out. 

Our Father loves all of us but hates all that we do or say that is evil. And the more we come to know God through Jesus the more we know what good is along with the difference between good and evil.

Some of us just get what others do not, depending on how much we want and try to learn from God.  It looks like a huge learning curve to me.

[Meadowchik]

8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The gospel is all about conforming.  That has been God's goal and Christ's example.
The problem is for some reason people no longer think they need to.

Nope. Conforming in and of itself is not a virtue nor does Christ preach it as such. The organising principle is that of being closer to the Father via Christ, not conforming.

You can visualize the concept mathematically if you compare a point to a sphere. As objects get closer and closer to a point, they must bend more and collapse in on themselves into one pointillistic dimension. However, as objects get closer and closer to a sphere, they can still remain three dimensional and be completely enveloped by the sphere.

So, the question is: is God more like a one dimensional point or a three dimensional sphere?

Edited March 6, 2017 by Meadowchik

[Meadowchik]

2 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I would agree with you that the church teaches that it contains exclusive authority for saving ordinances.  To me this is one of the heresies of Mormonism.  I also believe that Christianity at large claims exclusive authority for saving teachings through Jesus, and I also think that this is heretical.  Personally I don't believe that any religion has a corner on salvation.  Also, I don't like the mainstream contemporary definition of salvation as something that you receive in the next life.  I like the idea of salvation as some theologians like Marcus Borg have described as a process of transformation of self, a death of the old self and being born into a new creature, but this doesn't happen with one experience alone, it is an ongoing process.  

Anyway, I think those ideas of transformational salvation not being exclusive to any institution as consistent with a reading of gospel teachings, but whenever you get institutions that claim exclusive authority to these things, that is a concept I find antithetical to the overarching message of the gospel, and why I call it a heresy.  

For me it was the Church and sweating thru painful experience, with white-knuckling faith that yielded similar conclusions: all will have access to salvation, all will be accountable only to what they know. All have the spirit of Christ, and heeding it brings one closer to God today, and then, again, tomorrow. Eternal life, if we accept it, begins now.

[hope_for_things]

13 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I'm proposIng that all of us look to God as our authority, relying on him through Jesus, instead of anyone else.  Or at least that when we do rely on someone other than Jesus that we do so only because we know Jesus has told us to rely on someone other than him as someone who is speaking for him.

Not taking any Church leader's word just because he says so, or because other mortals agree with him, with the same attitude toward "Mormon Recovery" group leaders or anyone other than Jesus.

I'm good with this paradigm, as long as we stay humble to receive new perspectives and information and we remain open to learning new things.  If we ever get to a position where we think we've received knowledge from the divine and we are uncomfortable with information we encounter that brings our earlier knowledge into question, we need to be open to a paradigm shift, and recognize that the divine may be calling us to open our understanding to a new perspective that is good and relevant.

I've learned so much as I let go of my earlier confidence in perspectives, this has caused me to have empathy for all kinds of groups of people that I may have stereotyped in the past.  What I've learned is that I need to keep learning, to keep seeking to never think I've arrived at my destination, to always be seeking greater light and understanding.  This is what rings true to me in the gospel, and unfortunately this kind of openness seems very contrary to the culture of Mormonism at large that I experience in Sunday school, one that is fearful of new information and constantly warning people to stay away from unconventional sources of wisdom.  This kind of close mindedness is so sad to me and it makes it extremely hard to feel like I'm gaining anything from my Sunday interactions at times.  

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I cannot disagree with your last sentence but then, obviously you are left with the question of how the church can be of any use in the first place. 

Consider this: those who've taken part in Church have been immersed in the concept of church activity, or "enduring to the end,"  being integral to their personal salvation. 

It should be of no surprise, then, that many benefit from the support of other humans who affirm that yes, they're not crazy, where they are assured that, yes, Christ alone is the author and mediator of their salvation.

There is a reason that some online groups for exMormons include suicide hotlines on their home pages. You may never understand that anguish and turmoil unless you experience it yourself. Realising your mind has been conditioned a certain way and feeling that you may not ever feel comfortable with what you are honestly convinced is true and right (leaving the Church) can be horrible.

All the things Church members do to try to help themselves and other people are good, at least in intention, and sometimes it's just nice to have something to do that is a good thing to do.  

But everyone should still realize that what we do or say doesn't save anyone. At best we only pointing to Jesus, aND at worst we are pointing sone othe way.

Jesus is who we should all rely upon to know if and when and how we are saved.  The only one who can save us.

 

 

[hope_for_things]

7 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

For me it was the Church and sweating thru painful experience, with white-knuckling faith that yielded similar conclusions: all will have access to salvation, all will be accountable only to what they know. All have the spirit of Christ, and heeding it brings one closer to God today, and then, again, tomorrow. Eternal life, if we accept it, begins now.

I agree and I find readings of the scriptures especially the NT that emphasize the Kingdom of God as related to our time on earth in mortality a very compelling and persuasive reading of scripture.  The gospel to me today is about our relationships and helping the needy and afflicted here in this life primarily.  All the next life emphasis seems to be missing the core of the teachings of Jesus.  Mormonism seems too focused on a future salvation and is missing the core of the gospel message in my opinion today.  It's right there in the scriptures if you learn how to see it.  

[Johnnie Cake]

2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

 

I can only speak on this subject through my own experience.  I believe that IF there had been someone familiar with the difficulties at the right time along my faith crisis...I may not have continued down the rabbit hole.  But as I went searching from my bishop to my stake president to a member of the top 21 GA's in my quest for answers...no one offered anything other than reading the scripture, praying and keeping the so called commandments.  While each of those could have been helpful at an earlier time...I had long since passed the point where that was helpful advice.  What I needed was acknowledgement of the difficulties I was dealing with, that what I had discovered were legitimate issues and concerns, that I was not crazy for coming to some of the conclusions I had arrived at  and helpful understanding and believable answers to the questions I was asking.  None of that happened in my case.  In hide sight the lack of acknowledgement drove me to a community that confirmed my greatest fears.  While I proudly wear my ExMormon designation with pride...I know from experience that my path is not the only path.  Some do better remaining within the comfort of the church.

[Johnnie Cake]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

The answers can be found by those who keep looking until they find them. And the answers will lead us to Jesus and his Church.

Any solution that comes with a prepared one size fits all conclusion will not work for this community

[stemelbow]

23 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The gospel is all about conforming.  That has been God's goal and Christ's example.
The problem is for some reason people no longer think they need to.

Well sorry for my miscommunication there.  Conforming to what the Church has defined rather than what God has defined is the problem.  People question whether they must conform to the unnecessary sure.  But I'd say there are tons who are out there who want to feel aligned with God.  The Church has just pushed them out because they don't fit in with the mistaken mold the Church has tried to force people to be.