Spike in Utah suicides

[Jeanne]

You know..this is not a statistic or anything..just a general observation from one who lives in Cache County Utah.  It is not just the youth suicides..there have been elderly suicides too.  Just something that I have noticed in the past few years in other counties as well.  Sad..no matter rhyme or reason..it is sad.  Hard to pin down what causes there are. 

[notHagoth7]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

That was a weird glitch, I quoted another post but yours showed up.  Sorry for the confusion, usually I check.

Did you see the same cat twice?

[notHagoth7]

56 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

You know..this is not a statistic or anything..just a general observation from one who lives in Cache County Utah.  It is not just the youth suicides..there have been elderly suicides too.  Just something that I have noticed in the past few years in other counties as well.  Sad..no matter rhyme or reason..it is sad.  Hard to pin down what causes there are. 

Listening...

[Jeanne]

17 minutes ago, notHagoth7 said:

Listening...

And understanding.

[Danzo]

11 hours ago, notHagoth7 said:

This has been troubling me for a while.

Youth suicides have almost tripled in less than the last decade...becoming the #1 cause of death for their age group.

My initial thought was that it was despair...but why specifically Utah?

Some reporters have claimed it was because of the church's recent policy on homosexuality.

 

I'm not so quick to jump to that one...because.

1) Pharmaceutical companies reportedly starting cutting corners on vaccines by using fetus tissue to accelerate the process. I frankly don't have the science background to know how valid such a claim is. Anyone have access to scour that data? (If valid...could there be a spiritual wake/price paid by the rising generation vaccinated by the pharmaceutical companies...by unwittingly partaking of the blood of the innocents?) *If there is truth to the premise that embryo tissue is used for such things...what is the spiritual impact? Are JW's right, to some degree, in their aversion to partaking of blood? Does something resonate in the more-tender hearts of youth as a remnant of the modern slaughter of innocents? If there is merit to such a correlation, how do stop it from happening NOW...and how can we counter what has already been done to the rising generation? Scientists, spiritual counselors, psych counselors, parents, youth, please speak up.

2) Another possibility: Are families in our communities being preyed upon by adults and teens given over to the dark side? Trying to turn our children to the dark through abuse and pain? Either pushing them to the brink of despair (feeling there's no way out because friends/family are threatened with death/pain if they speak) to the point where they give up and end things...or pushing them to the point where they try to let the truth out...and being snuffed in the process (slain for their testimony...). Through such influences as pornography, have snuff killings moved beyond infant tragedies to teenage tragedies? Are Utah's children and teens being specifically targeted and preyed upon...as open warfare against the Restoration?? To know one way or the other, who is watching over my children for me?

Tell me, please, how I can help watch over yours.

What is really happening in Utah?

Can you cite your reference to triple suicides in the last decade?

[clarkgoble]

It's most likely not vaccines since that would lead to a spike everywhere an not Utah. (I'm quite skeptical that ingredient would do much either even though I recognize vaccines are treated like a boogeyman of late)

Homosexuality, especially after the Church's new policy on gays combined with how they are treated elsewhere might be a cause. (I'm not criticizing the Church in that - I think they're between a rock and a hard place but we should recognize this will have effects on youth). More likely I suspect are drugs for perceived psychological problems. A lot of people are overprescribed anti-depressants and some can cause suicidal tendencies. I don't think there are good studies on anti-depressant use by youth and by year. At best I could find stats for a few particular years. It also doesn't list the type of anti-depressant and that would matter a lot if a new drug is causing suicidal side effects.

What we really need are stats on anti-depressant use that capture type, age, year, and religion to draw good conclusions. Without that information it's hard to tease out effects.

The problem could also be tied to designer synthetic drugs, many of which can have psychological effects. 

[notHagoth7]

1 hour ago, notHagoth7 said:

Listening...

...still.

Are shepherds watching?

Edited February 27, 2017 by notHagoth7

[notHagoth7]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

Can you cite your reference to triple suicides in the last decade?

http://www.sltrib.com/news/4075258-155/story.html

[Calm]

Fetal tissue obtained decades ago used in the original culture, but no new since then.  Used the tissue because it had to be human to work for many vaccines:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/aborted-fetuses-vaccines/story?id=29005539

"To say that the vaccines contain a significant amount of human fetal tissue, as some objectors to the vaccines claim, is misleading, stressed Dr. Paul Offit, the director of the vaccine education center at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia.

"There are perhaps nanograms of DNA fragments still found in the vaccine, perhaps billionths of a gram," he said. "You would find as much if you analyzed the fruits and vegetables you eat."

And to remove human fibroblast cells entirely from vaccines is out of the question, Offit explained, noting they are necessary because human viruses don't grow well in animal cells.

"They have also been tested for safety and the fetal cells can go through many more divisions than most other cells before dying," he said."

[notHagoth7]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

And understanding.

Do the shepherds, in their stewardship, deem it necessary to gather the flock for protection?

Is it time for those flocks to circle the wagons? Or migrate to greener/safer pastures? Or to import reinforcement shepherds?

Armed with your info, they would be best suited to decide.

Edited February 27, 2017 by notHagoth7

[notHagoth7]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

."There are perhaps nanograms of DNA fragments still found in the vaccine, perhaps billionths of a gram," he said.

So...if there's only a little alcohol...a tiny sip...that's OK? If these are slain innocents, I don't want a drop. I think Daniel would be of similar mind. I have access to supplements that one person once asked if it contained anything like that - and after examining the ingredients on the side of the box, I rashly spoke what I thought to be the case...instead of what I actually knew. With this thread, gonna have to do some actual research, and if certain, denounce/disavow the provider. If in doubt, toss them.

2 hours ago, Calm said:

"You would find as much if you analyzed the fruits and vegetables you eat."

As much slain infant DNA? Um. That such might *conceivably* be found somewhere by chance is a different matter than partaking of something created FROM violent death. Even so, I appreciate the tip. All the more reason to carefully wash fruits and vegetables before eating.

2 hours ago, Calm said:

"They have also been tested for safety and the fetal cells can go through many more divisions than most other cells before dying," he said."

And? Infants who have no say in the matter have to die to divide/preserve mere cells? Seems like a terrible transaction. Unless the infants opted for such a thing, confident of being raised in the millennium. How would we know? I imagine on this matter, mothers' intuition would be the best guide.

Thoughts/feelings/impressions? (Knowing you dislike appeals to emotion.)

Edited February 27, 2017 by notHagoth7

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, notHagoth7 said:

Do the shepherds, in their stewardship, deem it necessary to gather the flock for protection?

Is it time for those flocks to circle the wagons? Or migrate to greener/safer pastures? Or to import reinforcement shepherds?

Armed with your info, they would be best suited to decide.

I don't have any big info..as I stated it was just my observation.  Over six months ago, an elderly man killed his wife and then himself.  He knew that no one would be around to take care of her..both with some health problems.  In Tooele County there was an incident that was about the same.  It is just not something that we are in constant awareness of. The Cache family were strong in the faith.

Sorry.  Perhaps all it means is that we are not actively seeking to understand the despair that older people are going through.

[Thinking]

13 hours ago, notHagoth7 said:

I agree there is likely more than one factor. But forget association/causation for just a moment please.

Step back several paces. The bigger picture first please.

WHY UTAH??!

Cui Bono?

You can't ignore causation and answer the Why Utah? question.

Observational studies are unreliable in establishing causation because there is no control group. Also, you can't interview those who successfully committed suicide, only those who survived.

Because a majority of the Utah population is LDS, some critics often blame the LDS Church for any bad Utah statistic. Likewise, some apologists give credit to the LDS Church for any good Utah statistic.

From the training I have received as a teacher, one of the most critical factors that contributes to suicide attempts is the feeling that there is no hope. One of our teachers has organized a "Hope Squad" which she patterned after another school's program. We haven't had a suicide at our school in 4 years.

[cinepro]

14 hours ago, notHagoth7 said:

This has been troubling me for a while.

 

1) Pharmaceutical companies reportedly starting cutting corners on vaccines by using fetus tissue to accelerate the process. I frankly don't have the science background to know how valid such a claim is. Anyone have access to scour that data? (If valid...could there be a spiritual wake/price paid by the rising generation vaccinated by the pharmaceutical companies...by unwittingly partaking of the blood of the innocents?) *If there is truth to the premise that embryo tissue is used for such things...what is the spiritual impact? Are JW's right, to some degree, in their aversion to partaking of blood? Does something resonate in the more-tender hearts of youth as a remnant of the modern slaughter of innocents? If there is merit to such a correlation, how do stop it from happening NOW...and how can we counter what has already been done to the rising generation? Scientists, spiritual counselors, psych counselors, parents, youth, please speak up.

This is a pretty big stretch.  The science behind vaccines and the use of "human cell strains" to develop them is discussed here:

http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/human-cell-strains-vaccine-development

You should read that article several times to get a better idea of what is going on, and why "human cell strains" might be used in preference to other options.  You should also check out this interesting book for a more in-depth look at the science and ethical issues behind the use of human tissue in medical research:

Quote

Her name was Henrietta Lacks, but scientists know her as HeLa. She was a poor black tobacco farmer whose cells—taken without her knowledge in 1951—became one of the most important tools in medicine, vital for developing the polio vaccine, cloning, gene mapping, and more. Henrietta's cells have been bought and sold by the billions, yet she remains virtually unknown, and her family can't afford health insurance. This phenomenal New York Times bestseller tells a riveting story of the collision between ethics, race, and medicine; of scientific discovery and faith healing; and of a daughter consumed with questions about the mother she never knew.

https://smile.amazon.com/Immortal-Life-Henrietta-Lacks/dp/1400052181/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1488227282&sr=8-1&keywords=immortal+life+of+henrietta

But honestly, the idea that using vaccines developed with the help of human DNA somehow affects the psychology of the recipient sounds more like superstition than anything else.  It's not much of a theory.

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, notHagoth7 said:

So...if there's only a little alcohol...a tiny sip...that's OK?

Generally that's how people treat it. If you eat ice cream made with vanilla extract or most red sauces and many other sauces or just use vinegar there will likely be tiny amounts of alcohol. For that matter many medicines have alcohol in them. If you justify those...

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, notHagoth7 said:

As much slain infant DNA?...

 (Knowing you dislike appeals to emotion.)

The nanograms are not part of the original fetal tissue, but are a multidecade culture created from it.  The DNA itself would only be copies created from the fetal tissue blueprints if that makes any difference to you.

----

Stop misrepresenting what I said or it will amount to false witness.  I don't have a problem with appropriate appeals to emotion.  Emotion is what gives value weight to our reasons, how much we care for something is an emotional experience.  If we removed emotion from our interactions, it would be a dry, boring world.  Just like other powerful influences, it can be misused.  Think of it as similar to adding sugar or msg variations to low quality food in order to make it desirable to eat.  There are reasons why we call it "junk food".  There can be "junk music" as well, something that 'feels' like it should be satisfying, moving, and our bodies and emotions respond, but after it is over, it hasn't changed us for the better or even caused us to think usefully and often reinforces things it shouldn't, like sugar cravings and us-them or self righteous/self centered feelings.

I have explained this multiple times.  If it doesn't take this time, I will be convinced you either don't care about the truth or your reading comprehension is so bad, it will be worthless to interact with you and either way I will put you on ignore.

I have a problem with misuse of emotion, say like how some put up pictures of dead babies when no babies were killed to create an association with that evil in people's minds that does not actually exist.  Or use intense serious music as a background to make what they are saying more credible.  I have a problem with other misrepresentations, like sticking an actor in a labcoat because peoplelink that to doctors or scientists to give the appearance of inherent credibilty that does not actually exist.  Or using beautiful, romantic music when watching what really amounts to statutory rape.  More often though, misuse of music in media is meant to cover low quality work, like putting a good stain on a cheap wood to make it look more expensive.

[Marmonboy]

Besides most vaccines are given to children, who have no knowledge or interest in what the vaccine is made of. And they don't get a choice whether to get a shot or not. They are as innocent of any wrongdoing as those babies you claim the vaccines are made from. If a just God were to call down vengeance for those vaccines, it wouldn't be on those toddlers who got vaccinated, but those who invented the vaccines. BTW, I'm pro-immunization.

As for the increased rate of suicides being murders to shut up the victims of some vast conspiracy, that sounds like the rash of Satanic cult ritual abuse rumors of a few years ago, absoutely zero of which were found to be true. There, I just triggered notHagoth7 again.

[notHagoth7]

34 minutes ago, Calm said:

The nanograms are not part of the original fetal tissue, but are a multidecade culture created from it.  The DNA itself would only be copies created from the fetal tissue blueprints if that makes any difference to you.

----Stop misrepresenting what I said or it will amount to false witness...

To clarify:

My intent is not to condemn or back you into a corner for *your* chosen path.

But if you feel it is, I don't blame you at all for coming out swinging.
You are free to pick and choose what works for you. And what doesn't

My core nature is primarily analytical/amiable. Not necessarily in that order.

It is not uncommon that those of certain temperaments [perhaps matching yours] feel under [unintentional] attack when I ask questions or make suggestions...and put up their dukes...when such an exchange is instead intended for the better/mutual good.

Fair 'nuf? Please?
 

The general intent of my questions are first to understand..... 

And I'm usually reflecting on that answer on the fly as I type. It is not intended as a personal attack. Although I know it sometimes can seem so.

And then, on occasion, I share what resonates *for me* as an appropriate path.

As iron sharpens iron....crossing swords - comparing thoughts - in dialogue is *not* meant to harm you.

I would sooner destroy a stained glass window...

(which I of course would not want to do either...)

Edited February 27, 2017 by notHagoth7

[notHagoth7]

12 minutes ago, Marmonboy said:

...If a just God were to call down vengeance for those vaccines, it wouldn't be on those toddlers who got vaccinated....

Agreed.

You've misunderstood my meaning.

12 minutes ago, Marmonboy said:

...There, I just triggered notHagoth7 again.

? 

Edited February 27, 2017 by notHagoth7

[notHagoth7]

24 minutes ago, Marmonboy said:

...There, I just triggered notHagoth7 again.

When you reply/refer to me in the third person...it immediately suggests the mutual respect...and therefore the discussion has ended.

As an olive-branch attempt to reboot:

Please help me understand what have I said that you opted to take offense over? (Likely a misunderstanding.)

Edited February 27, 2017 by notHagoth7

[Calm]

51 minutes ago, notHagoth7 said:

To clarify:

My intent is not to condemn or back you into a corner for *your* chosen path.

But if you feel it is, I don't blame you at all for coming out swinging.
You are free to pick and choose what works for you. And what doesn't

My core nature is primarily analytical/amiable. Not necessarily in that order.

It is not uncommon that those of certain temperaments [perhaps matching yours] feel under [unintentional] attack when I ask questions or make suggestions...and put up their dukes...when such an exchange is instead intended for the better/mutual good.

Fair 'nuf? Please?
 

The general intent of my questions are first to understand..... 

And I'm usually reflecting on that answer on the fly as I type. It is not intended as a personal attack. Although I know it sometimes can seem so.

And then, on occasion, I share what resonates *for me* as an appropriate path.

As iron sharpens iron....crossing swords - comparing thoughts - in dialogue is *not* meant to harm you.

I would sooner destroy a stained glass window...

(which I of course would not want to do either...)

To clarify, you have once more completely missed my point.  Stop reading it as what you are expecting me to say and start paying attention.

I am ignoring your questions and suggestions as irrelevant  because they are based on the misunderstanding you are locked into.  I do not see those or your misrepresentation as a personal attack.  It is just wrong as in an error.  It is like describing me as a redhead when I keep telling you I am a brunette.  And then asking me to consider how I might look much better in certain colors or even how I might want to dye my hair to become a brunette. At most it shows a lack of disrespect because you appear to be more interested in challenging me on the straw man you have created than actually understanding what I think.

So let me try one more time.

You keep saying I have a problem with "appeals to emotion".  I Do Not Have Such A Problem.

What I do dislike is using music and other emotional tactics that create false emotions to manipulate or to cover shoddy workmanship.  Think of it as putting a brand name known for high quality on cheap work because the producer wants money without time or resource investment.  B or lower movies using plots of Oscar winners so they can attract the same audience without having to invest Oscar amounts of money.  Dumping sugar and using food coloring to make cookies look good and taste edible that without the frosting are as bland as cardboard.

 

Edited February 27, 2017 by Calm

[notHagoth7]

34 minutes ago, Calm said:

shoddy workmanship..cheap work...bland cardboard.

K. I hear you. Passing off low quality for high would concern most anyone.

To make this germane to recent discussions, how is your *very* understandable concern relevant to matters of war, peace, the innocent, and life? 

Since you keep bringing this up to me, is there some thing I treasure and/or share that you happen to deem worthless? If so, what is it?

And if so, any ideas as to why you think we might value things differently?

Edited February 27, 2017 by notHagoth7

[notHagoth7]

6 minutes ago, notHagoth7 said:

K. I hear you. Passing off low quality for high would concern most anyone.

To make this germane to recent discussions, how is your *very* understandable concern relevant to matters of war, peace, the innocent, and life? 

Since you keep bringing this up to me, is there some thing I treasure and/or share that you happen to deem worthless? If so, what is it?

And if so, any ideas as to why you think we might value things differently?

Are you perhaps alluding to something like this in another thread?

"...I think if we are not careful as professional teachers working in the classroom every day, we may begin to try to counterfeit the true influence of the Spirit of the Lord by unworthy and manipulative means. I get concerned when it appears that strong emotion or free-flowing tears are equated with the presence of the Spirit. Certainly the Spirit of the Lord can bring strong emotional feelings, including tears, but that outward manifestation ought not to be confused with the presence of the Spirit itself."

?

[Calm]

Yes, very much so, but I apply it not just in spiritual areas, but throughout life where sentimentality is the method to appeal to emotions rather than true to life empathic and passionate/compassionate experience or portrayal of experience (the first would be something like some of the treks burying dolls as if they were dead babies while the second would be poorly done movies, music, books, etc.)

[RevTestament]

18 hours ago, notHagoth7 said:

This has been troubling me for a while.

Youth suicides have almost tripled in less than the last decade...becoming the #1 cause of death for their age group.

My initial thought was that it was despair...but why specifically Utah?

Some reporters have claimed it was because of the church's recent policy on homosexuality.

 

I'm not so quick to jump to that one...because.

1) Pharmaceutical companies reportedly starting cutting corners on vaccines by using fetus tissue to accelerate the process. I frankly don't have the science background to know how valid such a claim is. Anyone have access to scour that data? (If valid...could there be a spiritual wake/price paid by the rising generation vaccinated by the pharmaceutical companies...by unwittingly partaking of the blood of the innocents?) *If there is truth to the premise that embryo tissue is used for such things...what is the spiritual impact? Are JW's right, to some degree, in their aversion to partaking of blood? Does something resonate in the more-tender hearts of youth as a remnant of the modern slaughter of innocents? If there is merit to such a correlation, how do stop it from happening NOW...and how can we counter what has already been done to the rising generation? Scientists, spiritual counselors, psych counselors, parents, youth, please speak up.

I really don't think there are any spiritual repercussions for innocent children by receiving a different formulation of a vaccination. The kids would be totally not to blame. Spiritual repercussions would be for making bad life choices. I also doubt embryo tissue research used in vaccinations would cause the suicide rate to increase only in Utah. So that seems to be excluded as a cause.

Quote

2) Another possibility: Are families in our communities being preyed upon by adults and teens given over to the dark side? Trying to turn our children to the dark through abuse and pain? Either pushing them to the brink of despair (feeling there's no way out because friends/family are threatened with death/pain if they speak) to the point where they give up and end things...or pushing them to the point where they try to let the truth out...and being snuffed in the process (slain for their testimony...). Through such influences as pornography, have snuff killings moved beyond infant tragedies to teenage tragedies? Are Utah's children and teens being specifically targeted and preyed upon...as open warfare against the Restoration?? To know one way or the other, who is watching over my children for me?

Tell me, please, how I can help watch over yours.

What is really happening in Utah?

I also don't think there has been a marked rise in abuse or other type of "preying" causing the rise. It might be attributed to a rise in air pollution. Perhaps you could check those statistics. Has air pollution risen or changed significantly in the last 15 years. I have also read of connections between diesel fumes at a young age and autism. So we might be paying a mental health price based on pollution.

This was also about the time Church growth markedly slowed - indicating people are having difficulties with reconciling anti-LDS stuff with the restored gospel or traditional narrative. This would be a marked stressor for LDS. If the statistics are particularly related to LDS youth, this area would be a likely cause of the increase in suicides. Some people who have left the Church, such as Jeremy Runnels, have described a good bit of mental anguish in the process. Others might choose suicide over disappointing their family. If it is a state-wide increase not connected to religious affiliations then I like my air pollution idea better or some other likely environmental factor. At this point I don't know if there is sufficient info to ultimately find a cause or causes.