Particular cases of why people leave

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Um, I wonder what Church he or she belongs to? Let me make a guess, Is this a female member in the Utah Church?

No and no.

[Tacenda]

19 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'm not trying to be uncharitable.  

People automatically place more worth on those who leave who were active members who had testimonies.  Leaving after that seems to mean more to most people (those who leave, and also those who stay).  

Given that, it would just be nice to have that information.  If this kind of thing can help the church at all, it can only help in regards to people who used to show up and interact with the church and the membership.  There's no way to help someone you have never had a relationship with and who never had a relationship with you.

That is me, I was an active TR holder all my married life. But currently I haven't gone for over a month to Sacrament, and several years I haven't been to Relief Society and Gospel Doctrine class, except occasionally or once a year to Relief Society. The bishop/stake president could care less. I'm a germ that knows too much, maybe. They'd prefer I stay away from members, I believe. Back when I was in the Relief Society presidency serving as secretary, we kept track of the women who missed a month of attendance each month and turned that in quarterly to the bishop. And they would be contacted. And for months or years...nothing.They know I'm not busy helping the young man with special needs during that hour. I know they dropped the ball, after knowing of my faith struggles and not approaching me once about them. Making me feel like I'm contagious. I believe I might not be in the situation I'm in if they'd care to ask how I was doing with my testimony issues.

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

That is me, I was an active TR holder all my married life. But currently I haven't gone for over a month to Sacrament, and several years I haven't been to Relief Society and Gospel Doctrine class, except occasionally or once a year to Relief Society. The bishop/stake president could care less. I'm a germ that knows too much, maybe. They'd prefer I stay away from members, I believe. Back when I was in the Relief Society presidency serving as secretary, we kept track of the women who missed a month of attendance each month and turned that in quarterly to the bishop. And they would be contacted. And for months or years...nothing.They know I'm not busy helping the young man with special needs during that hour. I know they dropped the ball, after knowing of my faith struggles and not approaching me once about them. Making me feel like I'm contagious. I believe I might not be in the situation I'm in if they'd care to ask how I was doing with my testimony issues.

I'm very sorry that they haven't responded well to your faith crisis Tacenda.  It sucks to feel unloved and unwanted. 

Have you ever thought about actually asking anyone why they haven't visited or checked up on you?  Sometimes our assumptions run wild and turn out to be unfounded.

[HappyJackWagon]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm very sorry that they haven't responded well to your faith crisis Tacenda.  It sucks to feel unloved and unwanted. 

Have you ever thought about actually asking anyone why they haven't visited or checked up on you?  Sometimes our assumptions run wild and turn out to be unfounded.

Bluebell, I agree. Tacenda, I know how hard it is to feel marginalized, forgotten, or unwanted. Often times the truth is they are so busy managing the affairs of the ward/stake and putting out the fires they see it becomes easy to forget or unintentionally neglect people they don't see.

There could also be an element of respect. I often hear people who are upset that no one called or stopped by, yet others are upset that someone called or stopped by. It's pretty hard for a leader to know how a particular person wants to continue engaging with leaders if they are not explicitly told. They could honestly think that they are respecting your privacy by not intruding or pushing you into contact. Just a thought.

 

[rodheadlee]

39 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

No and no.

Strike 2! I'm out.

[Rock_N_Roll]

Hmmm...there is one pinned right on my house!  Pretty sure no one in my house wrote that! 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

 I'm very sorry that they haven't responded well to your faith crisis Tacenda.  It sucks to feel unloved and unwanted. 

Have you ever thought about actually asking anyone why they haven't visited or checked up on you?  Sometimes our assumptions run wild and turn out to be unfounded.

Let that be a lesson to members, don't be afraid to make contact with people like me. Don't be afraid to ask why they don't come to church. This board was my substitute ward luckily, others just go to exLDS or anti boards. Hopefully you TBM's out there will heed my advice and go after the lost sheep. 

Thanks bluebell, for your comments.

[Mystery Meat]

4 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I admit, I expect more from Church members for some reason.  It is probably true I probably should not.  But I do. 

I don't disagree and my comment was tongue in cheek. I just find it ironic and a bit unfair that those critical of the Church are often vile, crass and downright mean (therefore lacking charity) in regards to how they treat and view prophets (past and old). The minute a Church member questions or criticizes a critic they lack charity. 

In other words, I don't think it is fair to criticize Church members for lacking charity (clearly they should strive to cultivate it) while giving a pass to disgruntled members whose complete lack of it is utterly shameful.

[stemelbow]

30 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

I don't disagree and my comment was tongue in cheek. I just find it ironic and a bit unfair that those critical of the Church are often vile, crass and downright mean (therefore lacking charity) in regards to how they treat and view prophets (past and old). The minute a Church member questions or criticizes a critic they lack charity. 

In other words, I don't think it is fair to criticize Church members for lacking charity (clearly they should strive to cultivate it) while giving a pass to disgruntled members whose complete lack of it is utterly shameful.

Well, ask my kids about me being fair and get back to me.  hah...just kidding.  I get ya. 

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Let that be a lesson to members, don't be afraid to make contact with people like me. Don't be afraid to ask why they don't come to church. This board was my substitute ward luckily, others just go to exLDS or anti boards. Hopefully you TBM's out there will heed my advice and go after the lost sheep. 

Thanks bluebell, for your comments.

It's hard because, like HJW said, some people get upset when you ask such things.  But sometimes we all do need to be braver than we have been, i agree.  

[rongo]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

It's hard because, like HJW said, some people get upset when you ask such things.  But sometimes we all do need to be braver than we have been, i agree.  

About a year ago, we received the membership for an elderly couple in our ward (in their 80s). My RS president went to visit the sister, and the husband freaked out at her and her counselor --- really mean and upset. She reported this to me. On the Sunday after the attempted visit, the wife showed up at church for the first time in decades. She felt bad about how her husband had treated them, and she hasn't missed a Sunday since. Her husband began coming to church with her, and it is hard for us to see him having been mean at all. He has been very nice to everyone. On April 1 (no joke), her husband was baptized, and he works in the stake family history center. They will be sealed very close to this coming April 1. 

It's easy to talk about, but difficult to visit people who adamantly don't want visits. Sometimes, "taking a charge" (like in basketball) from people and letting them be abusive to us can prick their hearts and stir them in ways that wouldn't be possible otherwise. 

There was a story in the back of the Ensign years ago from a mission president who had a message on his answering machine. A man called and told him that he had searched for the number to call. He had been extremely mean to a pair of missionaries, and they left his doorstep in near tears. As they left, he was stung by what he had done, and he said in his message that he wanted to personally apologize to them, but didn't know their names. The missionaries probably had no idea about his turn-around, but their "bad day" was actually an important part of ensuring that someone would likely be open to missionaries in the future.

[pogi]

On 1/12/2017 at 10:19 AM, stemelbow said:

Something I noticed about this.  There are 3438 pins and growing.  All since, as far as I can tell Nov 2016.  That is the last two months.  I hope this grows.  It could be very informative to us members.  And if at some point we can look to this to get an idea of how many people are leaving?  That'd be awesome. 

How much of this is legit?  I look at some of the comments from other countries and some of them seem blatantly American to me. The one in China for example.  Is it possible that some haters are just getting on there and making up a bunch of crap?   I did zoom in to my brother-in-laws house however and he had left this comment:

 

A failed priesthood blessing really got the ball rolling. I realized that I couldn't trust my feelings or the spirit to know what is true. So I started to use logic, reason, and evidence and my testimony quickly fell apart.

Yep, that is him alright!

Edited January 14, 2017 by pogi

[cinepro]

On 1/12/2017 at 11:39 AM, rongo said:

It could also be a means of "ballot-box stuffing" --- of trying to give an online appearance of a groundswell of disaffection. 

The anonymous nature of it, and the ability of anyone to pin anything anywhere and say anythings makes this not very useful, actually. There could be (and I suspect are) people putting pins in like crazy and typing all kinds of reasons.

I was especially struck with how prominent complaints about the Book of Abraham papyri are in the pins. This is not the one single reason people would give, in my experience, but it crops up over and over. Like the same person wrote those pins.  

If half of the pins on the map were actually people who still attended Church, the numbers still wouldn't be as bad as the Church's reported membership numbers.

[Rain]

 

11 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Let that be a lesson to members, don't be afraid to make contact with people like me. Don't be afraid to ask why they don't come to church. This board was my substitute ward luckily, others just go to exLDS or anti boards. Hopefully you TBM's out there will heed my advice and go after the lost sheep. 

Thanks bluebell, for your comments.

I'm sorry it has been rough for you.  I wish I had the ability to help you and others. 

I have been VTing for 30 years minus my mission. Nearly the entire I have had at least one sister who doesn't come to church. I've had sisters who didn't answer my calls or the door, had someone lie for them, been told they didn't want VTers anymore,  been told to please come back,  but then they hide from me. 

I've been inspired by stories like Rongo shared and discouraged at other times because they have never happened to me. 

I have tried to be honest with all of them. Given them chances to tell me what they need or want or don't want and rarely does anyone tell me. 

Last year I was so frustrated with one of my sisters.  There I was knocking on the door when my partner saw the sister peeking between the blinds and didn't open the door.  My partner told me and I was ticked. Why wouldn't this woman just tell me to stop coming?  

As I reached the car the Spirit asked me if this was how I should be feeling?  Was I feeling the Savior's love for her?  It stopped me and turned around my attitude for her. So I keep going because I cannot read their minds and I don't want to not show up when they need me. 

So coming from this side of it - what are you wanting from them?  Let them know. Ask why they haven't contacted you.  Perhaps they don't do the contact like they used to because it was making more people mad then glad. Perhaps you said something that they misunderstood.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

 

I'm sorry it has been rough for you.  I wish I had the ability to help you and others. 

I have been VTing for 30 years minus my mission. Nearly the entire I have had at least one sister who doesn't come to church. I've had sisters who didn't answer my calls or the door, had someone lie for them, been told they didn't want VTers anymore,  been told to please come back,  but then they hide from me. 

I've been inspired by stories like Rongo shared and discouraged at other times because they have never happened to me. 

I have tried to be honest with all of them. Given them chances to tell me what they need or want or don't want and rarely does anyone tell me. 

Last year I was so frustrated with one of my sisters.  There I was knocking on the door when my partner saw the sister peeking between the blinds and didn't open the door.  My partner told me and I was ticked. Why wouldn't this woman just tell me to stop coming?  

As I reached the car the Spirit asked me if this was how I should be feeling?  Was I feeling the Savior's love for her?  It stopped me and turned around my attitude for her. So I keep going because I cannot read their minds and I don't want to not show up when they need me. 

So coming from this side of it - what are you wanting from them?  Let them know. Ask why they haven't contacted you.  Perhaps they don't do the contact like they used to because it was making more people mad then glad. Perhaps you said something that they misunderstood.

It all started when it was the first of my crisis of faith, I'd just found out about JS's polygamy and gone down the rabbit hole. I first mentioned it to my neighbor who told me it was anti stuff because her mother who is not LDS had told her all about it and other lies about the church. Then a short while later I brought something up to my visiting teachers, and one of the sisters was like..."I don't want to hear anything to hurt my testimony". So after that I began to think I was an anomaly, and I was the only one that knew. Then I went along like that for a couple of years, and then the RS presidency I served in had come to an end after about 4 years. A few months later I was asked to serve as a primary teacher. The 1st counselor had dropped by my house as I was going somewhere and he told me he needed to talk to me. My husband was talking to my neighbor outside next door, we were on our way to a movie. The counselor asked me to sit in his car, I knew it must be a calling. It was of course, but then I had to tell him the truth, I couldn't because that year it was the BoM and I couldn't feel sure that any of it was true. Then proceeded to tell him what I had found. He told me he had gone through something similar but then had an experience with genealogy and the temple and had been able to hold onto his testimony. His advice was to jump into the church full force to hold onto my testimony. I told him I'd think about it and would let him or the bishop know. And that's when I emailed my bishop and told him something similar and that I couldn't teach. The bishop asked me to come in but I declined. And that was about it, except for one time in church that he came to me and asked how I was doing. And another time he told my son to tell me to listen during Sacrament that day, maybe in not those words, and it turned out to be all about Joseph Smith. I kid you not. After that I felt I needed to shut up, and it was too bad that the 1st counselor moved out of our ward, so I had no one to talk to. And I discontinued having visiting teachers for fear of hurting them. 

But I do know what you mean, I was an ardent visiting teacher too and did have a few sisters do as you said and it was disheartening to be treated that way through the years. The route before my current one, I had one sister tell me she only wanted emails, another sister tell me she could only visit a short time every time, and another sister that would never answer our calls or emails. But my current route I couldn't be happier and things are getting better. 

Sorry for the way too long reply and thanks for reaching out in the past and now, you're awesome.

[Calm]

"The bishop asked me to come in but I declined"

Is there a reason you think he shouldn't interpret that as a desire not to be talked to by him?

And discontinuing visiting teachers is more likely to be interpreted as a desire to be left alone as well even if that is the last thing you really wanted.

People can't read your mind and figure out what you want.  Or figure out what you want at one time is not what you want another time.

If I knew that someone had declined to speak to me when .I had offered to speak to them as well as shut down the monthly visit of others to talk to, I would assume they wanted to be left alone, not talked to and .I would respect them by not doing that.  I would assume that "no" twice meant "no" all the time until I was told otherwise.  And I might tell others to respect your space and not push thinking I was helping you.

I know it can be very hard to be clear to others about awkward feelings, especially when we are undecided about things.  I've gone from back in the corner, total mouth shut to can't keep it shut, so it may not appear I don't know the agony of trying to decide whether or not to speak, but I do.  You got to give people a chance to learn who you are if you want to be known for who you are.  I know it doesn't always feel better when you make the effort, but it just might.  And when I did it and it worked (doesn't always unfortunately) it feels really good to have stood up and made sure my voice was heard.

Be fair to them if you choose to keep wearing a mask (which is sometimes necessary when we are not ready and need to protect ourselves).  If you are not realistic in understanding how people may respond to your need for personal time and space, then you are creating more of a burden for yourself and you are hurting yourself and could be hurting them.

[why me]

On 13.1.2017 at 6:08 PM, Tacenda said:

That is me, I was an active TR holder all my married life. But currently I haven't gone for over a month to Sacrament, and several years I haven't been to Relief Society and Gospel Doctrine class, except occasionally or once a year to Relief Society. The bishop/stake president could care less. I'm a germ that knows too much, maybe. They'd prefer I stay away from members, I believe. Back when I was in the Relief Society presidency serving as secretary, we kept track of the women who missed a month of attendance each month and turned that in quarterly to the bishop. And they would be contacted. And for months or years...nothing.They know I'm not busy helping the young man with special needs during that hour. I know they dropped the ball, after knowing of my faith struggles and not approaching me once about them. Making me feel like I'm contagious. I believe I might not be in the situation I'm in if they'd care to ask how I was doing with my testimony issues.

I think that people are in a hard place. Should they contact you or not. Most people no longer want to interfere in people's lives. How often have I read from inactives or exmembers how they wish to be left alone and not bothered anymore. And people are just busy looking after their own family. Not to mention the pressures of work. And do you come across as being open for conversation? And what should they care about? It is all about free agency and free will.

I say this from personal experience. I haven't had a bishop's interview in a long time and I also had this feeling that no one cared. But at the end of the day, what should they do?

[why me]

19 hours ago, Tacenda said:

 The bishop asked me to come in but I declined. And that was about it, .

This would do it for sure. If someone does not want to be contacted or comes across as not wanting to talk about it, it would be difficult for people to begin the contact. It is all up to you to change such a perception. Many people are afraid of infringing on someone's personal space. I know that I would be.

[Marmonboy]

On 1/13/2017 at 9:08 AM, Tacenda said:

That is me, I was an active TR holder all my married life. But currently I haven't gone for over a month to Sacrament, and several years I haven't been to Relief Society and Gospel Doctrine class, except occasionally or once a year to Relief Society. The bishop/stake president could care less. I'm a germ that knows too much, maybe. They'd prefer I stay away from members, I believe. Back when I was in the Relief Society presidency serving as secretary, we kept track of the women who missed a month of attendance each month and turned that in quarterly to the bishop. And they would be contacted. And for months or years...nothing.They know I'm not busy helping the young man with special needs during that hour. I know they dropped the ball, after knowing of my faith struggles and not approaching me once about them. Making me feel like I'm contagious. I believe I might not be in the situation I'm in if they'd care to ask how I was doing with my testimony issues.

This was an issue of mine many years ago during college. I was inactive for quite a while, and on those occasions when I did go, it was like I had a social disease or something. Nobody said a word, I had the whole row to myself, etc. Never got home taught, except for one night on the 31st, at 11:30 pm. And all I really wanted was somebody to welcome me, even one time. Sometimes I thank my lucky stars I'm still here, unlike the rest of my family.

[why me]

On 15.1.2017 at 7:03 AM, Marmonboy said:

This was an issue of mine many years ago during college. I was inactive for quite a while, and on those occasions when I did go, it was like I had a social disease or something. Nobody said a word, I had the whole row to myself, etc. Never got home taught, except for one night on the 31st, at 11:30 pm. And all I really wanted was somebody to welcome me, even one time. Sometimes I thank my lucky stars I'm still here, unlike the rest of my family.

Even in this case, it may have been up to you to do the welcoming by going up to people and introducing yourself. This can help in such situations. Sometimes people in a ward have their own set of friends and groupings. But to begin to speak with people in a friendly manner just may do the trick of being more welcomed next time.

[Marmonboy]

On an intellectual level I understand the concept, but these wards included my roommates and next door neighbors. Somebody there should have said something. They had my records--where were the home teachers? To be honest, I wasn't in a very happy place at that time, and I must have been radiating negativity, although I couldn't detect it myself. I did try to be sociable, but seemed to be rebuffed constantly. That part persists--most social occasions I sit alone in a corner with my punch and cookies until I leave. I used to try to get into the conversations, but nobody seemed to care what I had to say, or even listen. I have resolved the issue by simply not going anymore, unless my assistance is required (like a ward party or something.)

[Tacenda]

28 minutes ago, Marmonboy said:

On an intellectual level I understand the concept, but these wards included my roommates and next door neighbors. Somebody there should have said something. They had my records--where were the home teachers? To be honest, I wasn't in a very happy place at that time, and I must have been radiating negativity, although I couldn't detect it myself. I did try to be sociable, but seemed to be rebuffed constantly. That part persists--most social occasions I sit alone in a corner with my punch and cookies until I leave. I used to try to get into the conversations, but nobody seemed to care what I had to say, or even listen. I have resolved the issue by simply not going anymore, unless my assistance is required (like a ward party or something.)

Maybe it's my personality also. I tend to regret every time I go to Relief Society Meeting. But during my faith crisis, it was very stark, the lack of interference with what I was going through. Even when I discontinued having my visiting teachers come, for fear I'll wreck their lives. Usually the RS president will reach out anyway, but not my RS president. She avoided me like the plague. I even tried to talk to her in the halls in church and she ignored me. She may have been distracted I don't know. I've even complimented someone on their RS lesson and they didn't respond. They may have been overwhelmed with just having finished the lesson and it being stressful, don't know. 

Now that the young man I was helping hasn't been coming to church with his health problems, there is no reason to go. I guess I could try an experiment and not attend for a few months, I wonder what would happen then. 

I've already missed several Sacrament meetings. I know this is stupid to think this way, but I really see it as a problem in the church or maybe just my ward. I think they might only go after those that don't have their compromised testimonies stemming from the poor historical representations, and maybe go after those that have no idea, or leave or don't come for other reasons. Because there simply aren't any answers. Or the local leaders haven't been trained enough to handle them.

[why me]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe it's my personality also. I tend to regret every time I go to Relief Society Meeting. But during my faith crisis, it was very stark, the lack of interference with what I was going through. Even when I discontinued having my visiting teachers come, for fear I'll wreck their lives. Usually the RS president will reach out anyway, but not my RS president. She avoided me like the plague. I even tried to talk to her in the halls in church and she ignored me. She may have been distracted I don't know. I've even complimented someone on their RS lesson and they didn't respond. They may have been overwhelmed with just having finished the lesson and it being stressful, don't know. 

Now that the young man I was helping hasn't been coming to church with his health problems, there is no reason to go. I guess I could try an experiment and not attend for a few months, I wonder what would happen then. 

I've already missed several Sacrament meetings. I know this is stupid to think this way, but I really see it as a problem in the church or maybe just my ward. I think they might only go after those that don't have their compromised testimonies stemming from the poor historical representations, and maybe go after those that have no idea, or leave or don't come for other reasons. Because there simply aren't any answers. Or the local leaders haven't been trained enough to handle them.

Maybe you sent mixed signals. Reading your posts, if I were in your ward, I would probably try to have a conversation with you but then again, I would be concerned that I would be bothering you, especially if I heard that you did not want to be visited. Sometimes it is best to leave well enough alone. Are you sure that you had concern for the VT and not for yourself. You basically control the conversation, not them. It is up to you what you want to say to them.

[why me]

4 hours ago, Marmonboy said:

On an intellectual level I understand the concept, but these wards included my roommates and next door neighbors. Somebody there should have said something. They had my records--where were the home teachers? To be honest, I wasn't in a very happy place at that time, and I must have been radiating negativity, although I couldn't detect it myself. I did try to be sociable, but seemed to be rebuffed constantly. That part persists--most social occasions I sit alone in a corner with my punch and cookies until I leave. I used to try to get into the conversations, but nobody seemed to care what I had to say, or even listen. I have resolved the issue by simply not going anymore, unless my assistance is required (like a ward party or something.)

Tough spot to be in. Sometimes it just works out that way. If there were other wards near by, I would have attended them. Sometimes a ward can be a little dysfunctional.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Marmonboy said:

On an intellectual level I understand the concept, but these wards included my roommates and next door neighbors. Somebody there should have said something. They had my records--where were the home teachers? To be honest, I wasn't in a very happy place at that time, and I must have been radiating negativity, although I couldn't detect it myself. I did try to be sociable, but seemed to be rebuffed constantly. That part persists--most social occasions I sit alone in a corner with my punch and cookies until I leave. I used to try to get into the conversations, but nobody seemed to care what I had to say, or even listen. I have resolved the issue by simply not going anymore, unless my assistance is required (like a ward party or something.)

It is quite possible it is exactly as you remember or close to that.  I have seen wards that way.

I have also seen where people don't recognize and/or remember for some reason actions that actually were reaching out.  This happens a lot with introverts, but also with extroverts that get too caught up in their own performance, for lack of a better word.  I suspect in some cases they are so focused on their own feelings of awkwardness or other negative sensation, they are unaware of their surroundings and miss the smilies, the nods, the moves towards speaking and the moves away when it appears to the greeter that the greeting isn't welcomed.  Thus even though there are contradictory signs, their own perception continues to confirm their experience.

I only mention this because it is a good idea to do reality checks (it is all perception, so I just mean diligently, deeply questioning our perceptions and trying new things to test old ideas) from time to time.  In my case, sometimes I find I am wrong about others' self absorption...it is really my own, other times I am relatively certain it is the others and so I feel no obligation to keep pushing at walls unless from time to time I feel like it.

Edited January 16, 2017 by Calm