Something New

[Calm]

I think assigning a YW to go with the YM to give shutins the Sacrament is a great idea.  I took it for awhile and there was one set of young men who would take time to visit, ask questions about how I was doing; not only did I get the Sacrament, but .I felt more connected to the community and I felt the YM saw me as part of that rather than just a duty.  The other set were kind and very serious and quiet and as someone who is naturally shy, I gave them the benefit of the doubt that they did not chat with me or share a thought they had about a talk or Church principle because they did not know how to do it rather than they didn't want to be there.  I think having a Young Woman along or just a third person would tend to add a bit more variety into the mix.  Generally if one starts talking, the other feels more comfortable to do so and the more there are, the more likely someone will think of something to say...especially if the YW is assigned to give a sacred thought as part of Sacrament presentation.  It helps to set the time apart.  It is quite difficult to view it as the Sacrament if there is no preparation or 'mood setting' that hymns and even just getting dressed up and going to a different building can create.  Serving the Sacrament to one person takes five minutes or less, hard to shift one's head to a more spiritual place even by reading scriptures or listening to music on one's own.  The Sacrament is, imo, about sharing the experience with others in your faith community and those of us who don't have that opportunity lose out.  Young Men and Young Women taking a bit longer to create an experience rather than just a moment can really help.

Edited January 11, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Buckeye said:

 But He gives equal opportunity to all. He denies none who seek after something good. The scriptures clearly point toward that God.

In the long run, most definitely...but not in this life.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Can you help me understand what the Beehives' official responsibilities are? 

And that is the actual issue....

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Oliblish said:

It looks like there is precedence for this.

But this describes it as pinch hitting,  they are temporary standins helping out and when no longer needed, were dropped.

That kind of thing does not help a young woman find her place in the Church in my opinion unless there is something else required of them continuously and not just if males can't make it.

Edited January 11, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

Who needs baby changing stations in any of the restrooms? I always just changed our babied on the floor of an empty classroom. We had changing mats in our diaper bag, so it could have been on a concrete slab or wherever. 

I think too often things like "changing stations and bathrooms" becomes more of a symbol in culture wars than a practical need. 

Getting down on my knees put more stress on my already sore back and is much more awkward to do in a dress than in pants, have to remove one's heels as well or there is a good chance of twisting an ankle getting up and down.  Feel free to take away the changing table as soon as women can wear pants to church without running into someone thinking they aren't being reverent or respectful to the Lord.

PS:  forgot about c sections, so modify the above to the guys taking over as well when needed due to any pain issue, including minor stuff because slinging a baby around with minor pain is a guarantee for major pain.  Of course, if the husband also has physical limitations as happened with my first kid (blew out his back when I was 7 months pregnant pushing his sister's car out of the snow), then I guess the bishopric can call someone as official diaperchanger to avoid having to purchase a "changing station".  And officially announce there are no comments or dirty looks allowed if you walk into a stinky classroom due to a parent using it to change diapers because there is no space in the bathroom to change them.

Edited January 11, 2017 by Calm

[Tacenda]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think assigning a YW to go with the YM to give shutins the Sacrament is a great idea.  I took it for awhile and there was one set of young men who would take time to visit, ask questions about how I was doing; not only did I get the Sacrament, but .I felt more connected to the community and I felt the YM saw me as part of that rather than just a duty.  The other set were kind and very serious and quiet and as someone who is naturally shy, I gave them the benefit of the doubt that they did not chat with me or share a thought they had about a talk or Church principle because they did not know how to do it rather than they didn't want to be there.  I think having a Young Woman along or just a third person would tend to add a bit more variety into the mix.  Generally if one starts talking, the other feels more comfortable to do so and the more there are, the more likely someone will think of something to say...especially if the YW is assigned to give a sacred thought as part of Sacrament presentation.  It helps to set the time apart.  It is quite difficult to view it as the Sacrament if there is no preparation or 'mood setting' that hymns and even just getting dressed up and going to a different building can create.  Serving the Sacrament to one person takes five minutes or less, hard to shift one's head to a more spiritual place even by reading scriptures or listening to music on one's own.  The Sacrament is, imo, about sharing the experience with others in your faith community and those of us who don't have that opportunity lose out.  Young Men and Young Women taking a bit longer to create an experience rather than just a moment can really help.

Excellent idea Calm, hopefully it will travel upwards to headquarters! Can you imagine if the person receiving the Sacrament also receives some other form of worship to go along with it? How special that would be also! And the young women getting the opportunity to help implement this. I do know that sisters once they turn 18 start going visiting teaching, at least that's how I remember it being, so they do get to visit maybe the elderly or the homebound. 

[Calm]

I have seen it happen in a lot of wards.  Perhaps with the aging population, this may eventually become an official practice, but it could be more difficult in wards that are far apart or wards that have a lot of shutins and not a lot of young people.  My mother's ward gets an adult and a young man, often a son, bring her the Sacrament.  She gets to have a visit of about 15 minutes to go along with it.  Been quite nice for her.  In fact, I kind of wish it wasn't so nice as then maybe she would try harder to get to church,which she can manage just fine when she wants, she just doesn't want to be taken by others and only goes when family is visiting.  Wish it was otherwise as it would help her feel more in control of her life and safer if she was able to feel a part of her community rather than strictly an observer.

[bluebell]

43 minutes ago, rongo said:

Who needs baby changing stations in any of the restrooms? I always just changed our babied on the floor of an empty classroom. We had changing mats in our diaper bag, so it could have been on a concrete slab or wherever. 

I think too often things like "changing stations and bathrooms" becomes more of a symbol in culture wars than a practical need. 

There usually aren't any empty classrooms in my chapel. To many wards overlapping. 

[rockpond]

8 hours ago, bluebell said:

Probably part of my personality and also some assumption on my part, but i think it's dumb when someone thinks that the way to make women equal in the church is to give them some of the men's responsibilities.  

I don't see making the young women more like the young men (not in the physical sense, of course) is any kind of an answer.  From my perspective, it assumes that women only gain equality as they move into men's spheres because men's sphere's are inherently superior.

I love this post and perspective!  Thanks.

[Rain]

53 minutes ago, rongo said:

Who needs baby changing stations in any of the restrooms? I always just changed our babied on the floor of an empty classroom. We had changing mats in our diaper bag, so it could have been on a concrete slab or wherever. 

I think too often things like "changing stations and bathrooms" becomes more of a symbol in culture wars than a practical need. 

I really needed them after my c-sections, especially the one that had some real complications. And it doesn't need to be a fancy station.  It could have been a good will table for all I cared.  

[ksfisher]

10 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'm in the YW's presidency in our ward and this is definitely not happening here (or in wyoming in my parents' ward).   I personally think it's kind of dumb, but don't know that it's breaking any rules.

"The Lord has given bishops the sacred trust of receiving and accounting for the tithes and other offerings of the Saints (see D&C 119; 42:30–33). Only the bishop and his counselors may receive tithes and other offerings. Under no circumstances should their wives, other members of their families, clerks, or other ward members receive these contributions. The only exception is when Aaronic Priesthood holders are assigned to collect fast offerings"

Handbook 1, 14.6.1

[HappyJackWagon]

16 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think the best answer to such a question would probably be "you can't help because it's not your responsibility."  Because i think it's o.k. that we all don't get to have the same responsibilities and it's o.k. to acknowledge that sometimes boys and girls have different responsibilities.  

But to be honest, sometimes 'because you're a girl' is a valid answer, like when she asks you why she gets to deal with all the horrors of having her period every month and none of the boys she's knows has to suffer like that.

And from my perspective (and i know for a fact that i am not the only woman who sees things this way), being given men's responsibilities by men for no other reason than 'so you can participate' can come across kind of like 'well, you're here, I guess we'll find something for you to do...' 

Which is about as gratifying as a participation trophy is.

Why are they men's responsibilities? Probably because a man said so.

I agree that it is patronizing to give responsibilities to women because "well, you're here, I guess we'll find something for you to do" but I think that is assigning the worst motivation for making options available. Another motivation may simply be, "there is no reason to restrict you from participating, so we won't."

[rodheadlee]

20 hours ago, Senator said:

Hi All,

This past Sunday was Fast Sunday for us.  So, as usual I get a knock at the door and I think, "it must be the deacons collecting fast offerings".  Well, I open the door to find one deacon, and one beehive!

Wha???

I've never seen this before. Has anyone else noticed this? Is this a change in things?

 

What is a beehive?

[HappyJackWagon]

16 hours ago, rongo said:

The vast majority of people in my ward donate at church or online. I only use fast offering routes for people I have strategically decided to send the boys to (generally, active members who don't pay fast offerings or whose fast offerings are so small that it wouldn't hurt to give them more chances to donate . . .  ). This works out to only about two households per boy. And it works: sending the boys has brought in donations from people I have asked multiple times before with no result. 

Though, I'm sure if I offered to give it to the Beehives, the boys would be all for it! 

So you're sending the deacons to collect fast offerings as a kind of guilt trip on members who don't pay as much as you think they should? I see the smiley face but I just want to make sure you are really joking about that. I sure hope so.

Honest question- Why are you asking specific individuals/families to pay more fast offerings?

I think if the deacons knew that 1- collecting fast offerings really isn't a priesthood duty 2- that it is the least efficient way to collect fast offerings and 3- they were being used to guilt trip people into paying more, they may not feel to great about the sacrifice they're making as they serve in this capacity.

[Rain]

5 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

What is a beehive?

The YW, ages 12-13.

Edited January 11, 2017 by Rain

[HappyJackWagon]

12 hours ago, rongo said:

Who needs baby changing stations in any of the restrooms? I always just changed our babied on the floor of an empty classroom. We had changing mats in our diaper bag, so it could have been on a concrete slab or wherever. 

I think too often things like "changing stations and bathrooms" becomes more of a symbol in culture wars than a practical need. 

Unless there is no open classroom. Is it better to change the baby on the floor in the foyer where there are people milling about or is it easier to provide a changing table in both bathrooms? There is nothing about a culture war in that. It's about practical functionality and recognizing that men do change babies just like women do so it is nice to have a place to do it. Can you justify NOT providing a changing table when they are needed?

 

[HappyJackWagon]

16 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

No, I'm actually of the belief that allowing Deacons and Teachers to pass the sacrament is incorrect...that that is part of "administering" it.
For the first nearly 100 years of the Church only Priests, Elders, and above could assist with sacrament.
Then as we often do we changed how an ordinance is performed but recorded no revelation to justify the change.
During the world wars girls did pass the sacrament.  It wasn't until around that time or slightly earlier that Deacons and Teachers began passing sacrament as well.

Just one of those things that will eventually be fixed.

Women used to prepare the sacrament.

Women used to pass the sacrament.

There is no scriptural reason why they couldn't do both.

For those interested, this is an interesting podcast about how the Aaronic Priesthood changed an adult priesthood to a young man priesthood. It also addresses some of the historical changes for duties such as passing the sacrament and home teaching. http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2014/09/men-to-boys-development-of-the-priesthood/

[bluebell]

24 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Why are they men's responsibilities? Probably because a man said so.

I agree that it is patronizing to give responsibilities to women because "well, you're here, I guess we'll find something for you to do" but I think that is assigning the worst motivation for making options available. Another motivation may simply be, "there is no reason to restrict you from participating, so we won't."

And sometimes they are men's responsibilities because God said so.

Besides that, I do understand what you are saying.  I think my point is still valid though.  "There is no reason you can't do what the men do" isn't a win for women from my point of view.  They would certainly be more busy, but I don't believe they would understand their role and responsibility as women in God's Kingdom any better.

I prefer "This is what God wants for you and from you as His daughter" rather than "The men are already here.  It's fine if you're here too."

[HappyJackWagon]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

And that is the actual issue....

I think it is sad that YW really have no duties or responsibilities. They aren't even assigned to visit teach with their mothers like Aaronic Priesthood holders home teach with their fathers (or other priesthood holder). So if there is a dearth of developmental opportunity because YW are given no responsibilities, unlike their male counterparts, how is that fixed?

I have 2 daughters who couldn't care less about having responsibilities at church. But 1 daughter cares a lot. Sometimes she's fortunate enough to serve in a class presidency but as a YW she has no responsibility and she recognizes the disparity and it hurts her. She doesn't understand why boys have opportunities to serve where she has virtually nothing. This is the same daughter that pointed out to me when she was in activity days that she only got to go 2 times per month when the cub scouts got to attend activities every week.

For some, this clearly isn't an issue. But that doesn't mean it's not an issue for others.

[Rain]

14 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

So you're sending the deacons to collect fast offerings as a kind of guilt trip on members who don't pay as much as you think they should? I see the smiley face but I just want to make sure you are really joking about that. I sure hope so.

Honest question- Why are you asking specific individuals/families to pay more fast offerings?

I think if the deacons knew that 1- collecting fast offerings really isn't a priesthood duty 2- that it is the least efficient way to collect fast offerings and 3- they were being used to guilt trip people into paying more, they may not feel to great about the sacrifice they're making as they serve in this capacity.

1. If the bishop assigns it then it is a priesthood duty of the deacons. The problem I have seen is that many men assume it can only be an assignment of deacons. 

2. If we are only talking about money collected and nothing more, circumstances will vary on how efficient it is. My husband and son collect from a few people who are happy to give when they come to the house,  but the people don't ever give otherwise.  

All of our ward is in less than a 1/4 square mile. Distances traveled is not much. Other wards may find their ward size makes it ineffecient.

But there is also non monetary things to consider. I love what it is teaching my youngest spiritually, leadership wise, socially, getting along with others and service oriented. It has to be done well though. One of the reasons I didn't like it with my oldest was because how it was taught and run.  

 

[HappyJackWagon]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

And sometimes they are men's responsibilities because God said so.

Besides that, I do understand what you are saying.  I think my point is still valid though.  "There is no reason you can't do what the men do" isn't a win for women from my point of view.  They would certainly be more busy, but I don't believe they would understand their role and responsibility as women in God's Kingdom any better.

I prefer "This is what God wants for you and from you as His daughter" rather than "The men are already here.  It's fine if you're here too."

The responsibilities we're talking about are not because God said so. There is no scripture or revelation stating such.

I'm reminded of the quote "Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition." I think there is some truth to that but it doesn't mean women should settle for less than men.

 

[HappyJackWagon]

4 minutes ago, Rain said:

1. If the bishop assigns it then it is a priesthood duty of the deacons. The problem I have seen is that many men assume it can only be an assignment of deacons. 

2. If we are only talking about money collected and nothing more, circumstances will vary on how efficient it is. My husband and son collect from a few people who are happy to give when they come to the house,  but the people don't ever give otherwise.  

All of our ward is in less than a 1/4 square mile. Distances traveled is not much. Other wards may find their ward size makes it ineffecient.

But there is also non monetary things to consider. 3- I love what it is teaching my youngest spiritually, leadership wise, socially, getting along with others and service oriented. It has to be done well though. One of the reasons I didn't like it with my oldest was because how it was taught and run.  

 

1- A bishop can assign duties to deacons in his ward but that doesn't make it an official duty of deacons. Scripture defines that.

2- Yes. I agree that circumstances vary dramatically. I've never lived in Utah. My current ward is literally 30 miles square in a rural community. Still, I've seen leaders try to implement collection of fast offerings by deacons which is why I refer to it as an inefficient time sap.

3- How are young women similarly oriented towards service, spirituality, leadership etc when they don't have any responsibilities?

[Rain]

5 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I think it is sad that YW really have no duties or responsibilities. They aren't even assigned to visit teach with their mothers like Aaronic Priesthood holders home teach with their fathers (or other priesthood holder). So if there is a dearth of developmental opportunity because YW are given no responsibilities, unlike their male counterparts, how is that fixed?

I have 2 daughters who couldn't care less about having responsibilities at church. But 1 daughter cares a lot. Sometimes she's fortunate enough to serve in a class presidency but as a YW she has no responsibility and she recognizes the disparity and it hurts her. She doesn't understand why boys have opportunities to serve where she has virtually nothing. This is the same daughter that pointed out to me when she was in activity days that she only got to go 2 times per month when the cub scouts got to attend activities every week.

For some, this clearly isn't an issue. But that doesn't mean it's not an issue for others.

First of is that we should start asking the Lord like I mentioned above. Then we start looking to see if there is a need that could be filled by them.

I don't mean create a need. I mean find the need. While I am grateful that someone is trying to figure this all out and some have had YW bake bread for sacrament when it was previously bought I find that creating a need. And to go with what I said above on fast offerings door to door - in some wards I think that would also be creating a need, in other wards it would be filling a need.

[stemelbow]

I would have loved to have someone go with me to collect fast offerings when I was young.  That was by far the scariest day of the month for me as a deacon.  I got yelled at or grouched at too many times.  I didn't realize that most of the people I went to didn't go to Church for a reason and didn't really want to donate at all.  Somehow, I guess they felt a bit coerced to toss in a few bucks.  If I knew now that I was doing the bishop's dirty work, I wouldn't have been so valiant at doing it.  I felt like a weasel for doing it and didn't know why. 

 

[RevTestament]

4 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I would have loved to have someone go with me to collect fast offerings when I was young.  That was by far the scariest day of the month for me as a deacon.  I got yelled at or grouched at too many times.  I didn't realize that most of the people I went to didn't go to Church for a reason and didn't really want to donate at all.  Somehow, I guess they felt a bit coerced to toss in a few bucks.  If I knew now that I was doing the bishop's dirty work, I wouldn't have been so valiant at doing it.  I felt like a weasel for doing it and didn't know why. 

"dirty work" is a misnomer here. Fast offerings offer a chance for people to donate to help their community. I know people who were not active members who used church welfare. Yes, the bishop asked them to do some cleaning chores or the like, but there is nothing "dirty" about asking the community if they would like to contribute to helping others in the community. I believe this is why the door to door collection was instituted. If changed then only church members will be contributing and supporting others in their community who use the welfare system.