Something New

[Rain]

5 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

1- A bishop can assign duties to deacons in his ward but that doesn't make it an official duty of deacons. Scripture defines that.

2- Yes. I agree that circumstances vary dramatically. I've never lived in Utah. My current ward is literally 30 miles square in a rural community. Still, I've seen leaders try to implement collection of fast offerings by deacons which is why I refer to it as an inefficient time sap.

3- How are young women similarly oriented towards service, spirituality, leadership etc when they don't have any responsibilities?

1. Does it matter? Why?

2. I'm ok with it being ineffecient in some areas and shouldn't be done in some areas.  Are you ok with it being good in other areas? 

3. I gave my answer above, but we were probably cross posting. One thing I have found is that I can train my daughter on many of those things on my own in the mean time. And I have tried to help her leaders train her. One of the things I have noticed is that many YM/YW leaders don't know how to train them to be leaders. I get that. I'm still learning myself. But YW leaders have far more problem with that than YM leaders in my experience.  

So I train on both sides. I suggested to the leaders that the YW might should do such and such instead of the leaders so the YW could learn _______ . Then I talked with my daughter. "_______ is your responsibility. You should let your leaders know you are willing and able to do that. 

I was so proud of her last year when a situation came up and she approached not only her ward YW leaders and bishop, but stake leaders and a change was made. She needed some help as this was a tense situation and she had no experience in that area,  but she did well. 

I think for change to occur we probably need to show as parents and leaders and YW that we are ready for it so it is important that we start training them in our own sphere first.

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

"dirty work" is a misnomer here. Fast offerings offer a chance for people to donate to help their community. I know people who were not active members who used church welfare. Yes, the bishop asked them to do some cleaning chores or the like, but there is nothing "dirty" about asking the community if they would like to contribute to helping others in the community. I believe this is why the door to door collection was instituted. If changed then only church members will be contributing and supporting others in their community who use the welfare system.

I'm pretty sure those whom I went to saw it that way, though.  They saw it as donating to the Church and were grumpy about it. 

[Rain]

15 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I would have loved to have someone go with me to collect fast offerings when I was young.  That was by far the scariest day of the month for me as a deacon.  I got yelled at or grouched at too many times.  I didn't realize that most of the people I went to didn't go to Church for a reason and didn't really want to donate at all.  Somehow, I guess they felt a bit coerced to toss in a few bucks.  If I knew now that I was doing the bishop's dirty work, I wouldn't have been so valiant at doing it.  I felt like a weasel for doing it and didn't know why. 

 

This is why I have loved that my husband has gone with my son most of the time. When they first started going in this ward some grumped. At one house one man was really irritated. When my husband asked and explained where fast offerings go, and let him know that they didn't have to come if he didn't want that his attitude completely changed around and he asked them to keep returning.

Obviously, that doesn't work at every house,  but it was a good thing for that man, my husband and my son. I wish that you and others could have experienced this. 

[Calm]

57 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The responsibilities we're talking about are not because God said so. There is no scripture or revelation stating such.

 

This is assuming that God has only inspired leaders if it has been published to the Church.

[rongo]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

So you're sending the deacons to collect fast offerings as a kind of guilt trip on members who don't pay as much as you think they should? I see the smiley face but I just want to make sure you are really joking about that. I sure hope so.

No guilt trip involved. By sending the deacons to families who should be paying, but aren't, or who don't pay nearly as much as they reasonably could, this results in most of them living the law of the fast more fully. Without the guilt trip. When the deacons show up, they tend to pay *something* (which is all I'm looking for).

Guilt trip (if you can call it that) comes at tithing settlement when we discuss their tithing status and, if applicable, their fast offering donation status (i.e., how do you feel about your donations? Can you do better in 2017?).

Honest question- Why are you asking specific individuals/families to pay more fast offerings?

These are families who either a) haven't been paying anything at all, or b) have paid like $5 or $10 once or twice, but often don't pay anything at all. I'm really targeting the active members who obviously are not paying fast offerings, or who obviously could pay more than they do. Even just a little.

I think if the deacons knew that 1- collecting fast offerings really isn't a priesthood duty

I dispute this, especially in light of what President Taylor taught often about the duties of the Aaronic priesthood (welfare and temporal care, physical facilities, etc.)

2- that it is the least efficient way to collect fast offerings

Again, I don't send them to the people who pay at church or pay online. I only send them to specific people I have selected. For my purposes, it is the epitome of efficient.

and 3- they were being used to guilt trip people into paying more, they may not feel to great about the sacrifice they're making as they serve in this capacity.

See above. I think one reason it lists the duties of a teacher as "watching over the church" and seeing that people do their duty is because our youth are able to effectively do this in innocence in a way that might come off as guilt-tripping were adults to do it, but it isn't when they do it. Ding-dong. "Fast offerings!" That's it. No guilt trip involved.

[stemelbow]

41 minutes ago, Rain said:

This is why I have loved that my husband has gone with my son most of the time. When they first started going in this ward some grumped. At one house one man was really irritated. When my husband asked and explained where fast offerings go, and let him know that they didn't have to come if he didn't want that his attitude completely changed around and he asked them to keep returning.

Obviously, that doesn't work at every house,  but it was a good thing for that man, my husband and my son. I wish that you and others could have experienced this. 

I've accompanied the young men over the course of 10 years in our ward.  People have been quite nice to them.  It makes me feel like I was jipped or gipped.  But it's likely they are as nice because I'm with them. 

[Calm]

Or it could be that as a young man you felt awkward about your situation and were hyper aware of your own reactions to the point that it fuzzed out a good part of your awareness of others and therefore you misread many of their reactions as more negative than they actually were (a common attribute of many social interactions of shy people, I assume it can occur for those who are not shy when placed in situations that create the same sort of anxiety that shy people feel all the time).

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The responsibilities we're talking about are not because God said so. There is no scripture or revelation stating such.

I'm reminded of the quote "Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition." I think there is some truth to that but it doesn't mean women should settle for less than men.

 

From my perspective, the problem is that people define whether or not women are 'equal' by seeing where they lack in comparison to men, and then trying to fix that using men as the standard.

I think that men should be taken out of the conversation.  I hate quotes that say stuff like 'women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition' because I hate that my equality or worth is tied first to what men are doing, and that my aim as a woman always needs to take into account the men around me so i know what to aim for.  It's really annoying that people define equality for women as whether they are 'settling for more or less than men.'  It's always about men.  Everything is in relation to them.

I believe that my role and responsibilities as a daughter in my Heavenly Father's Kingdom should not be determined by what men are doing.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

I'm pretty sure those whom I went to saw it that way, though.  They saw it as donating to the Church and were grumpy about it. 

We can't always control how people see stuff, and that's o.k.  God is the one that asks us to donate fast offerings to help people in need  If people feel grumpy or guilty about that, that's o.k.  It doesn't mean they shouldn't still be asked.

 

[rongo]

15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

We can't always control how people see stuff, and that's o.k.  God is the one that asks us to donate fast offerings to help people in need  If people feel grumpy or guilty about that, that's o.k.  It doesn't mean they shouldn't still be asked.

Amen. I'm a little surprised at the apparent reaction of some here --- that bishops should not encourage or ask people to live the law of the fast and pay fast offerings. That we're somehow "guilt-tripping" people if we address it when it needs to be addressed. 

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Women used to prepare the sacrament.

Women used to pass the sacrament.

There is no scriptural reason why they couldn't do both.

For those interested, this is an interesting podcast about how the Aaronic Priesthood changed an adult priesthood to a young man priesthood. It also addresses some of the historical changes for duties such as passing the sacrament and home teaching. http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2014/09/men-to-boys-development-of-the-priesthood/

Yes, I know this used to happen.
It was in my opinion scripturally wrong.  I am of the belief that only priests and higher should be doing anything with the sacrament.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

I've accompanied the young men over the course of 10 years in our ward.  People have been quite nice to them.  It makes me feel like I was jipped or gipped.  But it's likely they are as nice because I'm with them. 

It could be, but that hasn't stopped some people being grumpy to my son when his dad was there.  I think some people will always be grumpy.  While I shared about the one man being happy once he understood not all will feel that way.  I'm impressed with the observations of my son as he sees the difference in how things affect people like this so while I don't want him to be treated badly, I do like that he is learning from it.  (And this isn't to say I am ok with him being treated badly to the point of abuse.  It doesn't go that far.)  

[HappyJackWagon]

4 hours ago, Rain said:

First of is that we should start asking the Lord like I mentioned above. Then we start looking to see if there is a need that could be filled by them.

I don't mean create a need. I mean find the need. While I am grateful that someone is trying to figure this all out and some have had YW bake bread for sacrament when it was previously bought I find that creating a need. And to go with what I said above on fast offerings door to door - in some wards I think that would also be creating a need, in other wards it would be filling a need.

I totally agree.

 

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Yes, I know this used to happen.
It was in my opinion scripturally wrong.  I am of the belief that only priests and higher should be doing anything with the sacrament.

I understand your position but is it backed up by scripture?

And when you say "be doing anything with the sacrament", how far do you take that? Should only priests be involved in baking the bread or sewing the table cloth covering, or washing the trays, or handing it from one person to the next along the pews?

 

[HappyJackWagon]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

From my perspective, the problem is that people define whether or not women are 'equal' by seeing where they lack in comparison to men, and then trying to fix that using men as the standard.

I think that men should be taken out of the conversation.  I hate quotes that say stuff like 'women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition' because I hate that my equality or worth is tied first to what men are doing, and that my aim as a woman always needs to take into account the men around me so i know what to aim for.  It's really annoying that people define equality for women as whether they are 'settling for more or less than men.'  It's always about men.  Everything is in relation to them.

I believe that my role and responsibilities as a daughter in my Heavenly Father's Kingdom should not be determined by what men are doing.

I asked previously, what is the role and responsibility of young women in the church? I haven't seen any listed yet.

[HappyJackWagon]

3 hours ago, Rain said:

1. Does it matter? Why?

2. I'm ok with it being ineffecient in some areas and shouldn't be done in some areas.  Are you ok with it being good in other areas? 

3. I gave my answer above, but we were probably cross posting. One thing I have found is that I can train my daughter on many of those things on my own in the mean time. And I have tried to help her leaders train her. One of the things I have noticed is that many YM/YW leaders don't know how to train them to be leaders. I get that. I'm still learning myself. But YW leaders have far more problem with that than YM leaders in my experience.  

So I train on both sides. I suggested to the leaders that the YW might should do such and such instead of the leaders so the YW could learn _______ . Then I talked with my daughter. "_______ is your responsibility. You should let your leaders know you are willing and able to do that. 

I was so proud of her last year when a situation came up and she approached not only her ward YW leaders and bishop, but stake leaders and a change was made. She needed some help as this was a tense situation and she had no experience in that area,  but she did well. 

I think for change to occur we probably need to show as parents and leaders and YW that we are ready for it so it is important that we start training them in our own sphere first.

1- It matters because the bishop doesn't have the authority to determine what are or are not duties for deacons in the church.

2- Busy work is busy work and therefore holds little value. IF on the other hand there are shut ins or someone who wants to pay and can legitimately be served by someone picking up fast offerings, that's great. But I don't think it should be assigned simply to give them something to do and then pretend like it's significant.

3- You may be right about leadership training, but it's pretty understandable because those women also had limited leadership opportunities growing up. There are no assigned duties or responsibilities so to what end should they be leading?

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

It could be, but that hasn't stopped some people being grumpy to my son when his dad was there.  I think some people will always be grumpy.  While I shared about the one man being happy once he understood not all will feel that way.  I'm impressed with the observations of my son as he sees the difference in how things affect people like this so while I don't want him to be treated badly, I do like that he is learning from it.  (And this isn't to say I am ok with him being treated badly to the point of abuse.  It doesn't go that far.)  

There'll always be grumps.  There are grumpy people who willingly pay it but are grumpy anyway, I suppose.  But I'd be surprised to see any of our young men get treated like I was treated these days.  Grumpy was probably the wrong word to describe it. 

 

Be that as it may, I think the idea of young women coupled up with young men adorable.  I don't see it sticking anywhere in particular, because if I had a 12 year old girl going with me, when I was a 12 year old, she would likely come covered in snowballs or ditched in some way.  I ain't proud of it, but I'm just thinking back on it. 

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

1- It matters because the bishop doesn't have the authority to determine what are or are not duties for deacons in the church.

2- Busy work is busy work and therefore holds little value. IF on the other hand there are shut ins or someone who wants to pay and can legitimately be served by someone picking up fast offerings, that's great. But I don't think it should be assigned simply to give them something to do and then pretend like it's significant.

3- You may be right about leadership training, but it's pretty understandable because those women also had limited leadership opportunities growing up. There are no assigned duties or responsibilities so to what end should they be leading?

1-the 12 apostles do though, right.  And they've made it a policy (outlines specifically in the Handbook) that only only exception to people being able to handle fast offerings outside of the bishopric are Aaronic priesthood holders.  Ksfisher provided the link earlier.

3-YW do have duties and responsibilities, they just tend to focus on those YW serving in leadership positions instead of the entire group.  But i completely agree that it wouldn't hurt them to have some more.  I think if we can begin to focus on what it truly means to be a daughter in God's kingdom that those responsibilities and roles will show themselves.  The church does put out some good training on how to help YW fulfill their duties and be leaders, but like Rain said, leaders are not always great at letting them.  I personally think part of the problem is that a lot of YW's leaders like to be in control and to make sure that things are done right and done well and part of teaching leadership is being willing to let the kids fail spectacularly when they don't follow through.  

[bluebell]

18 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I asked previously, what is the role and responsibility of young women in the church? I haven't seen any listed yet.

I talked about this a little in my last post to you, however, one example is that Beehive, Mia maid, and Laurel class presidencies are supposed to function exactly like the YW's presidency does, only the class presidencies should be in the forefront and the YW presidency should be in the shadows.  Considering everything that goes on in YW's, that's a lot of responsibility, and it's a lot of work.

Other than that, all the responsibilities of YW right now tend to focus on personal spirituality and development.  They have service requirements but nothing specific.

I think there is a lot of room for improvement, and like i said before, that will come when the focus becomes "what does it really mean to be a daughter of God and what roles and responsibilities do women have in His kingdom?" and not by focusing on "what are the men doing?  How can we get women to participate and share in what they are doing?"

 

 

[HappyJackWagon]

3 hours ago, rongo said:

No guilt trip involved. By sending the deacons to families who should be paying, but aren't, or who don't pay nearly as much as they reasonably could, this results in most of them living the law of the fast more fully. Without the guilt trip. When the deacons show up, they tend to pay *something* (which is all I'm looking for).

Guilt trip (if you can call it that) comes at tithing settlement when we discuss their tithing status and, if applicable, their fast offering donation status (i.e., how do you feel about your donations? Can you do better in 2017?).

Of course it's a guilt trip. You're telling them they should pay more and then you send a kid to pick it up. That, my friend, is a guilt trip.

These are families who either a) haven't been paying anything at all, or b) have paid like $5 or $10 once or twice, but often don't pay anything at all. I'm really targeting the active members who obviously are not paying fast offerings, or who obviously could pay more than they do. Even just a little.

Fast offerings are free-will offerings. I don't believe people should get a shake down about how much free will donation they are making. We should simply say "thank you" if they make one.

I dispute this, especially in light of what President Taylor taught often about the duties of the Aaronic priesthood (welfare and temporal care, physical facilities, etc.)

Would you provide a reference?

Again, I don't send them to the people who pay at church or pay online. I only send them to specific people I have selected. For my purposes, it is the epitome of efficient.

Efficient only as a shake down. But at least you're not sending bruisers to enforce collection of fast offerings  

See above. I think one reason it lists the duties of a teacher as "watching over the church" and seeing that people do their duty is because our youth are able to effectively do this in innocence in a way that might come off as guilt-tripping were adults to do it, but it isn't when they do it. Ding-dong. "Fast offerings!" That's it. No guilt trip involved.

I linked to a podcast earlier which explains the transition of the Aaronic priesthood from and adult function to the YM. At the time D&C 20 was written, the revelation referenced adult men, not youth. This same is true during Pres. Taylor's presidency. IOW- the revelation had absolutely nothing to do with the youth.

 

[Rain]

18 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I asked previously, what is the role and responsibility of young women in the church? I haven't seen any listed yet.

And we keep telling you that we don't know...yet. That's why we start locally so we will be prepared for when our responsibilities are known on a general level. 

13 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

1- It matters because the bishop doesn't have the authority to determine what are or are not duties for deacons in the church.

2- Busy work is busy work and therefore holds little value. IF on the other hand there are shut ins or someone who wants to pay and can legitimately be served by someone picking up fast offerings, that's great. But I don't think it should be assigned simply to give them something to do and then pretend like it's significant.

3- You may be right about leadership training, but it's pretty understandable because those women also had limited leadership opportunities growing up. There are no assigned duties or responsibilities so to what end should they be leading?

1. (Lol about our numbering, but I like it because it works!) It doesn't matter to me because I see that like I see it with women for a lot of things. It is a local priesthood assignment. 

3. Oh I agree it is understandable. It's the same with teaching.  Many of us grew up with lectures as a lesson. It will take some time to teach teachers to be discussion facilitators. That's why this, leadership and teaching, is so important to teach our youth now. They will be the next leaders and teachers and teaching by example those that come next.

These things are outside of the box for most so it is difficult to grasp. I have had a hard time learning it as well, but I have had many opportunities at Education Week etc so is easier than trying to do it on my own. 

[HappyJackWagon]

16 minutes ago, bluebell said:

1-the 12 apostles do though, right.  And they've made it a policy (outlines specifically in the Handbook) that only only exception to people being able to handle fast offerings outside of the bishopric are Aaronic priesthood holders.  Ksfisher provided the link earlier.

That's not the question that was being answered. I made a statement that Bishops don't define duties of deacons throughout the church. She asked why it matters and so I answered why it matters. You're bringing up a different question.

3-YW do have duties and responsibilities, they just tend to focus on those YW serving in leadership positions instead of the entire group.  But i completely agree that it wouldn't hurt them to have some more.  I think if we can begin to focus on what it truly means to be a daughter in God's kingdom that those responsibilities and roles will show themselves.  The church does put out some good training on how to help YW fulfill their duties and be leaders, but like Rain said, leaders are not always great at letting them.  I personally think part of the problem is that a lot of YW's leaders like to be in control and to make sure that things are done right and done well and part of teaching leadership is being willing to let the kids fail spectacularly when they don't follow through.  

 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I understand your position but is it backed up by scripture?

And when you say "be doing anything with the sacrament", how far do you take that? Should only priests be involved in baking the bread or sewing the table cloth covering, or washing the trays, or handing it from one person to the next along the pews?

 

D&C 20:75 It is expedient that the church meet together often to partake of bread and wine in the remembrance of the Lord Jesus; 
76 And the elder or priest shall administer it; and after this manner shall he administer it—he shall kneel with the church and call upon the Father in solemn prayer, saying:

Administer
late 14c., aministren, later administren, "to manage as a steward, control or regulate on behalf of others," from Old French aministrer "help, aid, be of service to" (12c., Modern French administrer), and directly from Latin administrare "to help, assist; manage, control, guide, superintend; rule, direct," from ad "to" (see ad-) + ministrare "serve" (see minister (v.)).
The -d- was restored 14c.-16c. in French and after 15c. in English. In reference to punishment, justice, etc., "to dispense, bring into operation" (especially as an officer), from mid-15c. In reference to medicines, medical treatment, etc., "to give," from 1540s. Related: Administered; administering.


Prior to the 20th century, this was the rule.  Church changed it, but no gospel reason for the change was given.  It was an administrative change (no pun intended).
Of course we no longer "shall kneel with the church" either.
You know, because scripture is only valid until it's not.  No kneeling, no raising of the hands, some people don't believe in using the right hand.
Lots of changes.  Some because there are no scriptures, some because we are ignoring scriptures.



 

Edited January 11, 2017 by JLHPROF

[rodheadlee]

10 hours ago, Rain said:

The YW, ages 12-13.

Thank you.

[rodheadlee]

I don't have a dog in this fight but I wanted to tell you all something about how we were treated when we were cruising in our sailboat. It didn't matter if we were in a foreign country or the USA. When we went to town if we went together we were treated well. People were friendly, they would stop and talk with us etc. If one of us went to town alone we were treated different. I was perceived as a threat to males and females, I'm 6-3 and weigh about 210, it's not fat. (well 3 years ago it wasn't fat) If my wife went to town alone she was perceived  as threat to the females and a possible victim to the males. Going to town when you're cruising consist of starting your inflatable dinghy and driving it to the dinghy dock from the anchorage, locking it up and walking to a bus stop. It was a rare occasion to spend money on a slip at a marina. Sometimes you had to stay at a marina as there was no anchorage. Usually the gals would go as a group to town if you're in a marina but we tend to be loners. So I guess the point is it's just fine with me if the guys and gals show up together at my boat.