Mass Exodus from Church?

[Jeanne]

6 hours ago, Gray said:

Great idea. Probably not a bad idea to stay local if possible and avoid rent by living with the parents as well.

No....do not live with parents..(from one who is finally having kids move out in January...ages 37 and 34)

[flameburns623]

Trib Article largely refuting this?

http://www.sltrib.com/home/4535962-155/mass-exodus-from-mormonism-lds-stats

EDIT: I see Teancum already posted a link. Sorry. 

Edited November 8, 2016 by flameburns623

[Scott Lloyd]

On 11/7/2016 at 0:23 PM, Jeanne said:

No....do not live with parents..(from one who is finally having kids move out in January...ages 37 and 34)

Well if I'm paying the bills for their education, I'd much rather have them live at home than pay for them to live and take their meals elsewhere.. 

Edited November 9, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[stemelbow]

On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 6:07 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

I think the implications of what is reported in this Tribune article are very, very significant. For too long now, the narrative has been circulating at large that people of late are leaving the Church "in droves," that it is hemorrhaging, and other such nonsense.

Now, at long last, we have clear indication that the number of resignations has been stable for at least the past two decades, including the past couple of years when "mass resignations" have been staged as media events to convey the supposed impression that the Church was imploding because of anger over the gay marriage policy and what not.

This late news would support a couple of recent public statements by General Authorities that the Church of Jesus Christ has never been stronger, despite outside pressures from a world increasingly subject to unrighteous influence.

It is as Nephi beheld in vision: the church of the Lamb spreading over all the face of the earth (stability and global presence) but its numbers being relatively few because of Satan and his followers holding sway over so many people.

I, for one, take pleasure in this news item of today, even as I acknowledge that the loss of even one soul is regrettable.

It's nice to know we have somewhere between 1 and 15,000 members leaving annually by official resignation.  It'd be nicer to know how many drop from activity too.  I'd be curious because in every ward I've been in the amount of inactives is larger than the amount of actives--most inactives that I've encountered in each ward I've been in are pretty much bored of church and/or opposed to it.  Lately though it feels like far more inactive members stake opposition rather than just benign boredom or however you want to characterize it. 

I'd suggest there's likely far more to this story and far less reason to get all excited about the relatively few who remove their names. 

[Jeanne]

13 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Well if I'm paying the bills for their education, I'd much rather have them live at home than pay for their room and board. 

I agree....my kids are just working away...education is done..a lot of highs and lows..divorce..etc.  I love them...and will miss them...but I have wings too.

[Tacenda]

21 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I agree....my kids are just working away...education is done..a lot of highs and lows..divorce..etc.  I love them...and will miss them...but I have wings too.

I love that attitude, your kids will be happy that their mom has other things that give her joy besides her kids. I wish every mom could do that and not live through her kids only. I'm going to try this and keep from revolving only around my children and family. 

I wish my mom had done this, and currently my mother in law. She revolves around us kids, and she doesn't know any other way to do things. Unless I have her pegged wrong. 

Once she became a widow, she's almost sheltered herself away from everybody except her kids. In her mind and she told me this, she feels like no one with husbands would want to hang around her. So she feels so alone except with her children. 

I hope she branches out soon, we're are trying to help her see that a retirement community would help her get out there and enjoy herself.

Right now she is trying so hard to just keep her house in shape, even with all of our help weekly. She'll be out in the yard killing ants and picking weeds all day, if we don't do something. She won't go to the center, she doesn't feel like working at the temple or doing any volunteering. I think she's depressed.

So good for you Jeanne! I hope I can do the same soon! 

 

[Calm]

How long since her husband died and how long were they married?

[Jeanne]

10 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I love that attitude, your kids will be happy that their mom has other things that give her joy besides her kids. I wish every mom could do that and not live through her kids only. I'm going to try this and keep from revolving only around my children and family. 

I wish my mom had done this, and currently my mother in law. She revolves around us kids, and she doesn't know any other way to do things. Unless I have her pegged wrong. 

Once she became a widow, she's almost sheltered herself away from everybody except her kids. In her mind and she told me this, she feels like no one with husbands would want to hang around her. So she feels so alone except with her children. 

I hope she branches out soon, we're are trying to help her see that a retirement community would help her get out there and enjoy herself.

Right now she is trying so hard to just keep her house in shape, even with all of our help weekly. She'll be out in the yard killing ants and picking weeds all day, if we don't do something. She won't go to the center, she doesn't feel like working at the temple or doing any volunteering. I think she's depressed.

So good for you Jeanne! I hope I can do the same soon! 

 

Thanks...really it is not that I want a big exciting life..just want to put my clothes in the washer ...an already empty washer...kind of want to find some mayonnaise instead of an empty jar....and the bathroom mirror without those little dots all over it..  I do hope though that your mother-in-law can find an outlet somehow to make life fuller for her.  I have been a widow for 18 years and so..the wounds are not so raw as they were in those early days.  Keep an eye on her..and bless you for having that kind of relationship.

 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

Thanks...really it is not that I want a big exciting life..just want to put my clothes in the washer ...an already empty washer...kind of want to find some mayonnaise instead of an empty jar....and the bathroom mirror without those little dots all over it..  I do hope though that your mother-in-law can find an outlet somehow to make life fuller for her.  I have been a widow for 18 years and so..the wounds are not so raw as they were in those early days.  Keep an eye on her..and bless you for having that kind of relationship.

 

Hahahaha...

You are a hoot!!

[Thinking]

On 11/3/2016 at 6:13 AM, Nofear said:

http://www.sltrib.com/home/4535962-155/mass-exodus-from-mormonism-lds-stats

From the article,

Is there more to the story or is this statistic substantially correct? For my part, I go with substantially correct, but some may wish a chance to "clarify" the facts.

1/1000 = 15,000/15,000,000

Less than 15,000 per year could be anywhere from 0 to 14,999, but I think it's closer to 14,999 otherwise a different fraction would have been used. 10,000 seems reasonable. Is 10,000 significant?

[Tacenda]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

How long since her husband died and how long were they married?

Just saw this, it's been a little over a year now.

[Jeanne]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Just saw this, it's been a little over a year now.

This is still so new to her.  You go through the first year with holidays and special moments reflecting the last year together.  Time.  Hopefully the next six months of another year will give her assurance and some confidence.  Wishing her much love and she is so lucky to have all of you.

[Calm]

12 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Just saw this, it's been a little over a year now.

My mom is finally starting to take a greater interest in life again, making decisions for herself, etc.. we were told with her (and with my daughter when diagnosed with diabetes) give her at least a year before expecting her to be 'normal' again.  Grieving takes a lot of time, energy, and effort.  People often narrow down because that is the only way to survive it.  It is almost two years with my mom, but stuff got delayed I think because of her physical pain and surgery demands.  It is hard to figure out a new normal.  It is not just life going on with one thing missing, it is losing your whole life and then wondering if it is worth it to start a new one.  Be grateful she is still wanting to be around family, my mom didn't even want that for a lot of the time (probably because she was forced to do exactly that because she was not independent, not able to drive) and even now the way she talks can make us wonder if she really wants us there because she goes on quite a bit about how her day is being constantly 'interrupted', but then she sends out feelings she is being neglected or how grateful she is as well.  Reality is she just doesn't know what she wants, life is too different.  Chances are your mil is doing just what she needs to do and in time her world will expand again, though probably not as much as before.

ps:. The obsession with the house is probably her way of distraction from thinking too much about what is wrong with her life, she feels she can control that.  It is possible too much freedom would cause greater anxiety.  I do the same by hanging out here.  (though life is getting better for me so now I hang out more to force myself to get some rest)

Edited November 11, 2016 by Calm

[Johnnie Cake]

On ‎11‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 11:33 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

This contradicts  Elder Quentin L. Cook of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, who said at April 2015 general conference that the Church of Jesus Christ has never been stronger:

Where are you getting the idea that "the percentage of actively engaged members is shrinking?" A "dramatic" increase in "demonstrably measurable indicators" such as temple recommend holders, tithe payers and missionaries shows just the opposite.

Well this won't be the first time that my comments contradicts those of an LDS Apostle nor the last...I just believe that he is flat wrong and distorting the true picture of the strength of the church.  You counter my comments by claiming that "A "dramatic" increase in "demonstrably measurable indicators" such as temple recommend holders, tithe payers and missionaries shows just the opposite."  Ok CFR..please provide some statistics to support this currently unsupported claim.  With the exception of Missionary numbers...(which the church does release)...can you show statistics that support an increase in tithe payers or temple recommend holders?

Also the church currently states that is has a world wide membership of somewhere around 15.5 million members and yet In the "Vital Statistics" article of the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Dr. Tim Heaton cites internal church data:

"Attendance at sacrament meeting varies substantially. Canada, the South Pacific, and the United States average between 40 percent and 50 percent. Europe and Africa average about 35 percent. Asia and Latin America have weekly attendance rates of about 25 percent."^[1]

Sociologist Armand Mauss stated that "75 percent of foreign [LDS] converts are not attending church within a year of conversion. In the United States, 50 percent of the converts fail to attend after a year.

And this observation by Christian researcher George Barna issued the stunning declaration: "Turnover in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints appears to be the highest of any church in the U.S."^[6]

So Elder Cooks claims just done not seem to be supported by reality...unless by saying that it has never been stronger...it is recovering from an even worse position than its current anemic status.

Scott if in your view the current status of the church as vibrant and healthy...I guess we just have different standards of what is vibrant and healthy.  But from my viewpoint a church that claims to have 15.5 million members but can only realistically call 1/3 of them as active participants...is a far cry from what I would consider as healthy.  But I certainly understand why Cook needs to sell a distorted image to the faithful...but it is not an honest portrayal of what is actually happening in reality.  

 

 

Edited November 25, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[mrmarklin]

Likely the 1/3 overall activity rate is fairly accurate. 

 

Most religions would kill for a statistic like that. I'm sure that the Catholic religion is much less than that, and they're by far the biggest. 

 

In religion, like so many other life endeavors, the 80/20 rule is alive and well. 

 

Having served in a bishopric as well as being a lifelong member of the Church, I'm of the opinion that the average inactive is a believer. 

[mfbukowski]

10 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

 

Having served in a bishopric as well as being a lifelong member of the Church, I'm of the opinion that the average inactive is a believer. 

We used to get tithing checks from multiple people who never ever came to church or activities in some cases they would not even accept home teachers.

[Jeanne]

14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

We used to get tithing checks from multiple people who never ever came to church or activities in some cases they would not even accept home teachers.

I have a very inactive cousin .who does this....scared to death of fire

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

Having served in a bishopric as well as being a lifelong member of the Church, I'm of the opinion that the average inactive is a believer. 

This has been my experience as well. I've personally contacted almost all of the totally inactive members on our ward list, many more than once. We have a small handful who claim not to believe any longer, but the vast majority happily engage in gospel conversations, admit they should probably be at church (even when they haven't been in a decade or longer), etc. When a loved one is seriously ill, these people often ring up asking for a blessing. If visited by the deacons, most of them will pay a fast offering.

On the other hand, we have a brother in the ward who is in church nearly every Sunday with his wife. Most people have no idea that he's an apostate. I do because I've interviewed him as a bishopric member.

Inactivity =/= lack of belief. And in some cases activity =/= belief.

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

We used to get tithing checks from multiple people who never ever came to church or activities in some cases they would not even accept home teachers.

From some experience as a former member and a VT coordinator, I know that some will pay thinking that they will be left alone otherwise. 

[rodheadlee]

12 hours ago, Jeanne said:

From some experience as a former member and a VT coordinator, I know that some will pay thinking that they will be left alone otherwise. 

We pay because we believe the blessing in Malachi .Even when we are inactive  lost sheep.

8 ¶ ^aWill a man ^brob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In ^ctithes and offerings.

  9 Ye are ^acursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

  10 Bring ye all the ^atithes into the storehouse, that there may be ^bmeat in mine house, and ^cprove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not ^dopen you the ^ewindows of heaven, and pour you out a ^fblessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

  11 And I will ^arebuke the ^bdevourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts.

  12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the Lord of hosts.

Edited November 26, 2016 by rodheadlee

[Teancum]

On 11/5/2016 at 3:29 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

We've been assured, though, that there will never be another general apostasy. So I'm afraid Jeanne is in for some disappointment.

 

Who assured us of this?

[Teancum]

On 11/5/2016 at 9:11 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

Dave Ramsey recommends going to less expensive, community colleges if need be. He says the education offered at high-priced schools is not so much better to justify the wide cost differential.

I agree with him but even State schools are for the most part fairly expensive these days.

[Teancum]

On 11/5/2016 at 9:16 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

He's engaging in wishful thinking. In every way the Church is larger than it ever has been in history: membership, wards and stakes, number of temples, number of missions, number of countries where the gospel is present, number of languages in which scriptures and other content are available, And "real-growth" indicators are higher than ever: tithe payers, temple-goers, etc.

 

CFR on the bolded part above....

[Okrahomer]

7 minutes ago, Teancum said:

CFR on the bolded part above....

Scott may have a better reference than this, but Cumorah.com in general and Matt Martinich specifically seem to provide pretty reliable Church growth Data:

"The year 2016 has been an extraordinary year for stake creations. Thus far, there have been 85 new stakes organized since January 1st, 2016.

Stake growth is a robust indicator of "real growth" in the LDS Church as stakes require certain minimum requirements to operate (e.g. number of active, full-tithe paying Melchizedek Priesthood holders [AFTPMP]; number of congregations; ratio of AFTPMP to general church membership; etc). Thus, accelerated stake growth in 2016 constitutes a noteworthy development in regards to the growth of the Church."

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, Teancum said:

Who assured us of this?

The resurrected John the Baptist during his appearance to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. See Doctrine and Covenants 13. See also Joseph Smith - History in the Pearl of Great Price, especially the Oliver Cowdery quote in the footnote. 

This is elementary Church doctrine. 

Is this a trick question?

Edited November 27, 2016 by Scott Lloyd