ASL sacrament blessers?

[Duncan]

We have in our ward two men who are ASL. They sometimes pass the sacrament. We have members of the ward who sign for them and it's a thrill to be able to help them and be helped by them. The question came up if they could bless the sacrament. The discussion never went beyond that really. But has anyone seen that before? and what were the logistics of it? Apparently the sacrament prayer in ASL isn't word for word but could they sign to someone who would then read the sacrament prayer word for word or how would that all happen?

[rpn]

Ask the church headquarters to provide a church ASL version so your ASL "speaker" can participate equally.   Once you have that it is the official version (whether it is "word for word" or not).   The bishop and counselors will also have to learn it so they can sign off on it being accurate, as normal.    And no, if I were doing it, I would not interpret it back into English.  But I probably would assign one english speaker with an ASL speaker so the congregation could always hear one of the prayers whether they were deaf or english speaking.

[JLHPROF]

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/amen?lang=eng
Amen

See also Prayer

Means “may it be so” or “so it is.” Amen is said to show hearty or solemn acceptance and agreement (Deut. 27:14–26) or truthfulness (1 Kgs. 1:36). Today at the end of prayers, testimonies, and talks, those who heard the prayer or message say an audible amen to indicate agreement and acceptance.

In Old Testament times, a person was to say amen when making an oath (1 Chr. 16:7, 35–36; Neh. 5:13; 8:2–6). Christ is called “the Amen, the faithful and true witness” (Rev. 3:14). Amen also served as the token of a covenant in the School of the Prophets (D&C 88:133–135).

 

I have no problem with people praying in native languages, and that would include ASL.
But I do not say Amen to prayers I cannot understand.
Joseph Smith said "do not speak in tongues except there be an interpreter present" and "Speak not in the gift of tongues without understanding it, or without interpretation."

So as far as blessing the sacrament in another language like ASL, I would be fine with that since we already have the interpretation of the prayer being offered.

[ksfisher]

12 minutes ago, Duncan said:

We have in our ward two men who are ASL. They sometimes pass the sacrament. We have members of the ward who sign for them and it's a thrill to be able to help them and be helped by them. The question came up if they could bless the sacrament. The discussion never went beyond that really. But has anyone seen that before? and what were the logistics of it? Apparently the sacrament prayer in ASL isn't word for word but could they sign to someone who would then read the sacrament prayer word for word or how would that all happen?

Handbook 1 gives general guidelines for the interpretation of ordinances performed by someone using sign language, but not specific direction on how this would apply to the sacrament in the situation you described. 

While I think that it is important for priesthood holders to be able to participate in the ordinances which their office allows them to function in, I also think it's of importance for the congregation to be able to understand the words of the sacrament prayer.

It seems sort of redundant for someone to sign the sacrament prayer and then have someone read it.

Edited October 10, 2016 by ksfisher

[ttribe]

23 minutes ago, Duncan said:

We have in our ward two men who are ASL. They sometimes pass the sacrament. We have members of the ward who sign for them and it's a thrill to be able to help them and be helped by them. The question came up if they could bless the sacrament. The discussion never went beyond that really. But has anyone seen that before? and what were the logistics of it? Apparently the sacrament prayer in ASL isn't word for word but could they sign to someone who would then read the sacrament prayer word for word or how would that all happen?

Yes, it can be done and there is official guidance on it.  In fact, I've done it myself at a Deaf Branch.

[Duncan]

6 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Yes, it can be done and there is official guidance on it.  In fact, I've done it myself at a Deaf Branch.

do you remember how you did it?

[cdowis]

I participated in an ASL baptism which would be the same issue.  The person doing the ordinance used the ASL "language", while the speaker gave the scriptural language.  

ASL is nothing  more than a language, like Spanish and any other language.  And those languages do not give the literal wording of the prayer, but use the adoptive words and phases. As with other languages, ASL has standard signing for the ordinances.

I would assume the bishop would simply make sure that the speaker of the "translation" is correct or designate someone to check out the ASL.

 

Edited October 10, 2016 by cdowis

[Buckeye]

I grew up in a ward that had many deaf members because the state school for the deaf was located in our town. I'm not sure what current practice is, but in the mid-90s our bishop had all the priests memorize the sacrament prayers in sign language. We didn't use ASL - which I understand includes a lot of ways to cut off unnecessary words - but instead signed every word of the prayer. The instruction we were given at the time was that the signed prayer was the "official" one and the second priest would speak the prayers shortly after each line as an interpretation for those who did not understand. In other words, those who could hear but not understand sign language were "deemed" to be in the "minority." This was really cool because the everyone was supposed to watch the prayer be signed rather than close their eyes. 

I'm not sure if that's still church policy. Your bishop should be able to quickly find someone at the church office who can confirm current policy. If not, PM me and I'll put you in contact with the ward I grew up in and your bishop could ask the current bishop how they run things today.

FWIW, I found that learning to sign the prayer gave a unique perspective on the words of the prayer, much like happens with any second language. From time to time I'll teach the youth the signs as a means to better understand the ordinance. As one example, when I learned the prayers, there was no sign for "sanctify" so the sign we used was (i) form the letter "S" and (i) then sign the words for "make" and "clean." 

[cdowis]

Have you seen the story of David and Goliath in sign language?  Amazing, especially when Goliath falls down.

[JAHS]

46 minutes ago, cdowis said:

 

I participated in an ASL baptism which would be the same issue.

 

I have seen baptisms performed for the dead in the temple using sign language. I guess they arrange a special session for it.

I can see where it could work for the sacrament if everyone were deaf, but it seems that those who do not know ASL would need to hear it spoken. I think It could be done simultaneously without much difficulty.

 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

We have in our ward two men who are ASL. They sometimes pass the sacrament. We have members of the ward who sign for them and it's a thrill to be able to help them and be helped by them. The question came up if they could bless the sacrament. The discussion never went beyond that really. But has anyone seen that before? and what were the logistics of it? Apparently the sacrament prayer in ASL isn't word for word but could they sign to someone who would then read the sacrament prayer word for word or how would that all happen?

Do YOU HAVE a bishop?

Why are you asking this here??

[Duncan]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Do YOU HAVE a bishop?

Why are you asking this here??

I do have a Bishop! he wasn't involved in the discussion, we had a combined EQ and HP class. Where the bishopric was I have no idea

[Ginger Snaps]

I'm in a designated deaf ward (most of the ward is hearing, but deaf members from my stake and the neighboring stake attend and interpreters are provided). The sacrament prayers are interpreted into ASL anytime we have deaf members present. We have a deaf male member who signs it (while someone else says it) if he's there and if he's not, several of the men and young men have learned to sign it and do so. All of the interpreters are female, but will sign the prayer if there isn't a priesthood holder to do so. Our deacons and teachers have been trained to watch the interpreter and make sure he's finished signing before they stand and take the trays. 

I've never seen the reverse done where the deaf member is saying the Sacrament prayer, but it makes sense to me that it would be spoken for the hearing just as is done when one of our deaf members gives a talk or prayer.  I do know when our missionaries were prepping to baptize a new deaf member they had to learn to sign the baptismal prayer for him. 

There are a lot of resources for deaf accommodations on LDS.org. My MIL is an interpreter and temple worker and coordinates deaf sessions for the temple. She's got some neat stories about how the temple accommodates all kinds of issues and how doing ASL sessions has given her different insights into things.  

Edited October 10, 2016 by Ginger Snaps

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, Ginger Snaps said:

I'm in a designated deaf ward (most of the ward is hearing, but deaf members from my stake and the neighboring stake attend and interpreters are provided). The sacrament prayers are interpreted into ASL anytime we have deaf members present. We have a deaf male member who signs it if he's there and if he's not, several of the men and young men have learned to sign it and do so. All of the interpreters are female, but will sign the prayer if there isn't a priesthood holder to do so. I've never seen the reverse done where the deaf member is saying the Sacrament prayer, but it makes sense to me that it would be spoken for the hearing just as is fine when one of our deaf members gives a talk or prayer.  I do know when our missionaries were prepping to baptize a new deaf member they had to learn to sign the baptismal prayer for him. 

There are a lot of resources for deaf accommodations on LDS.org. My MIL is an interpreter and temple worker and coordinates deaf sessions for the temple. She's got some neat stories about how the temple accommodates all kinds of issues and how doing ASL sessions has given her different insights into things.  

From one who is more deaf than not...I think this is wonderful and I have never heard of this before. 

[Ginger Snaps]

1 minute ago, Jeanne said:

From one who is more deaf than not...I think this is wonderful and I have never heard of this before. 

Yeah it's been a neat experience. There's always a bit of a struggle to fully integrate them in the ward, but we try! One of my favorite things: we can't seem to ever get a regular ward choir together, so our music chairperson regularly calls for an "impromptu ward choir" where they invite anyone who wants to come up and join in singing a hymn from the book. Our deaf members get up and sign the hymn. Our primary also always signs at least one song for the primary program. One of the interpreters is also the primary chorister so she's got the kids signing all the time. My kids have picked up a fair amount between her and my MIL  

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

I do have a Bishop! he wasn't involved in the discussion, we had a combined EQ and HP class. Where the bishopric was I have no idea

Oh one of those.

He should have sent out for the Danites to keep an eye on you guys then   ASL is a language.  Whoever "speaks" the blessing has to be worthy and have the priesthood.  No more strange than if it had been blessed in German.  Every language is ambiguous, some more than others and translations are simply enshrined ambiguity.   There is no such thing as a perfect translation of anything.

Edited October 10, 2016 by mfbukowski

[juliann]

We had a deaf boy who had some oral language that wasn't very intelligible. His parents would hand out a copy of his talk and he would go to the podium and speak it. It was wonderful. Another autistic boy struggled through talks and by the time he was out of high school was able to recite a very intelligible short talk. The church provides a stage for these children like no other. 

[Jane_Doe]

6 hours ago, Duncan said:

We have in our ward two men who are ASL. They sometimes pass the sacrament. We have members of the ward who sign for them and it's a thrill to be able to help them and be helped by them. The question came up if they could bless the sacrament. The discussion never went beyond that really. But has anyone seen that before? and what were the logistics of it? Apparently the sacrament prayer in ASL isn't word for word but could they sign to someone who would then read the sacrament prayer word for word or how would that all happen?

Yep, I used to belong to a partially deaf ward.  The official ASL translation of the prayers are here https://www.lds.org/manual/blessing-on-the-bread?lang=eng&clang=ase&_r=1 and here https://www.lds.org/manual/blessing-on-the-water?lang=eng&clang=ase&_r=1

If you wanted these individuals to bless the sacrament (which they have equal responsibility to) they simply sign the prayers (speaking in their language) and the translator will speak the English prayer.  It's really no different than if you were in a English/Spanish ward or any other bilingual combo.  

 

[Jeanne]

47 minutes ago, Ginger Snaps said:

Yeah it's been a neat experience. There's always a bit of a struggle to fully integrate them in the ward, but we try! One of my favorite things: we can't seem to ever get a regular ward choir together, so our music chairperson regularly calls for an "impromptu ward choir" where they invite anyone who wants to come up and join in singing a hymn from the book. Our deaf members get up and sign the hymn. Our primary also always signs at least one song for the primary program. One of the interpreters is also the primary chorister so she's got the kids signing all the time. My kids have picked up a fair amount between her and my MIL  

This is so cool!!! 

[ttribe]

On 10/10/2016 at 9:37 AM, Duncan said:

do you remember how you did it?

It's been a long time, but if I remember correctly, if someone is actually blessing the sacrament using sign language, they are to use Signed English (which is different than ASL) to sign each word exactly as it is written out.  I believe interpreters were allowed to use ASL for the benefit of deaf congregants if the prayer was offered verbally.

[HappyJackWagon]

Interesting topic, Duncan.

It seems to me like it would be beneficial to have an interpreter for those who don't know ASL. It would be interesting to see a female interpreter voice the interpretation of the ordinance.