The conensus on if the BoM is directly from God.

[Tacenda]

Today I found out that the word Atonement was made up by someone in the 1600's. How come it is in the BoM then? Is this just another anachronism that has been shuffled off as maybe Joseph Smith switching a word to help the reader understand? 

And did JS really read word for word on the Seerstone coming from God. If so, how did this word get in the BoM. I'm sure many of you have an answer and this is probably a non-issue. 

https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng

"According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat, pressed his face into the hat to block out extraneous light, and read aloud the English words that appeared on the instrument."

 

 

Edited September 26, 2016 by Tacenda

[Duncan]

15 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Today I found out that the word Atonement was made up by someone in the 1600's. How come it is in the BoM then? Is this just another anachronism that has been shuffled off as maybe Joseph Smith switching a word to help the reader understand? 

And did JS really read word for word on the Seerstone coming from God. If so, how did this word get in the BoM. I'm sure many of you have an answer and this is probably a non-issue. 

https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng

"According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat, pressed his face into the hat to block out extraneous light, and read aloud the English words that appeared on the instrument."

 

 

I am by no means an expert but in english that words exists but in other languages it doesn't always so I think other words that are used are reconciliation and similar words. So maybe Joseph knew that word and whatever word was in the plates translated into atonement but the word atonement may not have been on the plates but the concept was

Edited September 26, 2016 by Duncan

[Jeanne]

This is a courageous question..upfront and a good question.  Not having any answers for you but I hope someone can point out something that will resonate with you.

Hugs to you on your journey here!! 

[Gray]

I think ancient Hebrews would definitely have understood the concept of atonement, whatever the origins are of the English word. 

Edited September 26, 2016 by Gray

[rongo]

What word should have been used instead? Your concern seems to be that if the BoM was really ancient, then its translation into 1820s English shouldn't contain words that didn't exist until the 1600s. Is that an accurate summary? 

Translations have to make sense and be relevant to the target audience. As Elder B. H. Roberts wrote, "To speak of literal translation is to talk of literal nonsense." If you translated anything literally, it would be a very poor translation because it wouldn't capture the meaning in a relevant way to the target audience. I do a "fun with Google Translate" activity the first day with my German 1 students to show them just how awful Google Translate is in any language (it doesn't give "true" translations because it is mechanical and computer based. There is no substitute for or lazy way to get around actually knowing a language). 

That Joseph Smith made use of a word like "atonement" to get a point across and transmit ideas is the very essence of translation.

Does that help, Tacenda?

Edited September 26, 2016 by rongo

[notHagoth7]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Today I found out that the word Atonement was made up by someone in the 1600's. How come it is in the BoM then? Is this just another anachronism...

Hi Tacenda,

I don't quite follow the logic in your initial question.

The problem with your premise, at least as I see it, is that not a single English word existed in the days of Lehi, Nephi, Daniel, Jeremiah or Nebuchadnezzar. As such, I would not be justified in discarding Nephite, Old Testament, or even Babylonian testimony simply because modern English translators use modern English words.  Likewise, not a single English word supposedly existed in the days of Captain Moroni, Julius Caesar, and Cicero. etc., etc.

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Is this just another anachronism that has been shuffled off as maybe Joseph Smith switching a word to help the reader understand? 

Yep, the latter. To help the reader understand. *Every* word in the English translation of the Nephite record is/was to help the reader understand.

Or as Nephi basically said: "For my soul delighteth in plainness; for after this manner doth the Lord God work among the children of men. For the Lord God giveth light unto the understanding; for he speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding."

Edited September 26, 2016 by notHagoth7

[thesometimesaint]

59 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Today I found out that the word Atonement was made up by someone in the 1600's. How come it is in the BoM then? Is this just another anachronism that has been shuffled off as maybe Joseph Smith switching a word to help the reader understand? 

And did JS really read word for word on the Seerstone coming from God. If so, how did this word get in the BoM. I'm sure many of you have an answer and this is probably a non-issue. 

https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng

"According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat, pressed his face into the hat to block out extraneous light, and read aloud the English words that appeared on the instrument."

There were no English or French words on the plates.

SEE http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms/Language/"Adieu"

[ksfisher]

"Prophet" entered the English language somewhere around 1200.  "Throne" as well.

"Marvelous" and "redemption" around 1300.

"Messiah" somewhere in the 1300's.

"Abridgment" 1400.

The word "civilization" didn't come into English until 1765 or 1775 (according to dictionary.com).

One would expect to find words that entered into English before 1830 to be found in a document that purports to be translated at that time.

Now, if one could find the word computer, or internet, or email (I, Mormon, did receive and email from the king of the Lamanites...).

 

 

[Tacenda]

Thanks guys, guess I need to learn not to be quick in my topic posting. Consensus was spelled wrong. 

And anti-Mormons certainly shouldn't use the topic as a reason to think it's all false either.

[cdowis]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Today I found out that the word Atonement was made up by someone in the 1600's. How come it is in the BoM then? Is this just another anachronism that has been shuffled off as maybe Joseph Smith switching a word to help the reader understand? 

And did JS really read word for word on the Seerstone coming from God. If so, how did this word get in the BoM. I'm sure many of you have an answer and this is probably a non-issue. 

https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng

"According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat, pressed his face into the hat to block out extraneous light, and read aloud the English words that appeared on the instrument."

 

 

I guess the Bible has the same problem.  Here is a search for "atonement" in the Bible.  So, if that word did not exist, were did it get into the Bible??

  Just another pathetic antiMormon argument, like "adieu" (French), "Christ" (Greek), born "at Jerusalem".

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=simple&format=Long&q1=atonement&restrict=All&size=First+100

Edited September 26, 2016 by cdowis

[notHagoth7]

2 hours ago, notHagoth7 said:

....not a single English word existed in the days of Lehi, Nephi, Daniel, Jeremiah or Nebuchadnezzar....Likewise, not a single English word supposedly existed in the days of Captain Moroni, Julius Caesar, and Cicero. etc., etc.

I'll reiterate this with the emphasis I should have granted it first time through.

 

Rather than distract from this thread, I might expand upon things implied here a bit more some day in a separate thread. [Basically the extensive overlap between Germanic (of which English is a branch) and New World language elements might one day raise an eyebrow or two.]

Edited September 27, 2016 by notHagoth7

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Today I found out that the word Atonement was made up by someone in the 1600's. How come it is in the BoM then? Is this just another anachronism that has been shuffled off as maybe Joseph Smith switching a word to help the reader understand? 

And did JS really read word for word on the Seerstone coming from God. If so, how did this word get in the BoM. I'm sure many of you have an answer and this is probably a non-issue. 

https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng

"According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat, pressed his face into the hat to block out extraneous light, and read aloud the English words that appeared on the instrument."

Actually, since Joseph was merely reading the Engish words from the stone, we do not in fact know who did the translation into English -- although scholars now suggest that the translation bears all the earmarks of Early Modern English style and syntax in the 16th century.

The English word atonement “unity, onement,” is the source for the verb atone “to make amends for, expiate, make reparation.”  Atonement is the doctrine of the reconciliation of God and man, especially through the life, suffering, and death of Jesus Christ (Webster’s New Universal Unabridged Dictionary).  It is merely used to translate Hebrew, Greek, and other ancient terms in both Bible and Book of Mormon (Exodus 29:33,36, Romans 5:11; 2 Nephi 2:10, Alma 36:17).

The Jewish “Day of Atonement,” for example, comes from Hebrew yom kippur, the most holy day of the Jewish year.

Compare the Ugaritic sacrificial term np, npy “atonement, expurgation, purification, expiation,”[1] or Ugaritic tšlm “redemption/ payment, atonement.”[2]

---

[1] G. del Olmo Lete, Canaanite Religion according to the Liturgical Texts of Ugarit, 2^nd ed. (Ugarit-Verlag, 2014), 16-17,123; KTU 1.40:1,19,36.

[2]G. del Olmo Lete, Canaanite Religion According to the Liturgical Texts of Ugarit, 2^nd ed., 165 and n. 106; KTU 1.111:22-23; G. del Olmo Lete & J. Sanmartin, Dictionary of the Ugaritic Language, 2^nd ed., 197, 419.

[Tacenda]

56 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Actually, since Joseph was merely reading the Engish words from the stone, we do not in fact know who did the translation into English -- although scholars now suggest that the translation bears all the earmarks of Early Modern English style and syntax in the 16th century.

The English word atonement “unity, onement,” is the source for the verb atone “to make amends for, expiate, make reparation.”  Atonement is the doctrine of the reconciliation of God and man, especially through the life, suffering, and death of Jesus Christ (Webster’s New Universal Unabridged Dictionary).  It is merely used to translate Hebrew, Greek, and other ancient terms in both Bible and Book of Mormon (Exodus 29:33,36, Romans 5:11; 2 Nephi 2:10, Alma 36:17).

 

The Jewish “Day of Atonement,” for example, comes from Hebrew yom kippur, the most holy day of the Jewish year.

 

Compare the Ugaritic sacrificial term np, npy “atonement, expurgation, purification, expiation,”[1] or Ugaritic tšlm “redemption/ payment, atonement.”[2]

 

---

[1] G. del Olmo Lete, Canaanite Religion according to the Liturgical Texts of Ugarit, 2^nd ed. (Ugarit-Verlag, 2014), 16-17,123; KTU 1.40:1,19,36.

 

[2]G. del Olmo Lete, Canaanite Religion According to the Liturgical Texts of Ugarit, 2^nd ed., 165 and n. 106; KTU 1.111:22-23; G. del Olmo Lete & J. Sanmartin, Dictionary of the Ugaritic Language, 2^nd ed., 197, 419.

 

I heard the word atonement came from Tyndale, but according to wiki, it may have been in use before that. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale

Coinage of the word atonement (a concatenation of the words 'At One' to describe Christ's work of restoring a good relationship—a reconciliation—between God and people)^[38] is also sometimes ascribed to Tyndale.^[39][40] However, the word was probably in use by at least 1513, before Tyndale's translation.^[41][42] Similarly, sometimes Tyndale is said to have coined the term mercy seat.^[43] While it is true that Tyndale introduced the word into English, mercy seat is more accurately a translation of Martin Luther's GermanGnadenstuhl.^[44]

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Today I found out that the word Atonement was made up by someone in the 1600's. How come it is in the BoM then? Is this just another anachronism that has been shuffled off as maybe Joseph Smith switching a word to help the reader understand? 

And did JS really read word for word on the Seerstone coming from God. If so, how did this word get in the BoM. I'm sure many of you have an answer and this is probably a non-issue. 

https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng

"According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat, pressed his face into the hat to block out extraneous light, and read aloud the English words that appeared on the instrument."

 

 

How long have you been on this forum?

How many times have we discussed this?

[Tacenda]

8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

How long have you been on this forum?

How many times have we discussed this?

I've forgotten what was discussed. I guess I'd really like to know if each word in the BoM was given through the seerstone, or was it a few or many, or was the majority from inspiration. Do we know any of these things. I guess God could put that word down. So really this is probably a non-issue like I said before. But to anti's it apparently is an issue.

 

[mfbukowski]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I've forgotten what was discussed. I guess I'd really like to know if each word in the BoM was given through the seerstone, or was it a few or many, or was the majority from inspiration. Do we know any of these things. I guess God could put that word down. So really this is probably a non-issue like I said before. But to anti's it apparently is an issue.

 

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V20N01_68.pdf

[carbon dioxide]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I've forgotten what was discussed. I guess I'd really like to know if each word in the BoM was given through the seerstone, or was it a few or many, or was the majority from inspiration. Do we know any of these things. I guess God could put that word down. So really this is probably a non-issue like I said before. But to anti's it apparently is an issue.

 

Everything is an issue to an anti.  I think the Lord is more concerned about us understanding the concepts and teachings rather than the words used to express them. 

[mfbukowski]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I've forgotten what was discussed. 

Sorry!

They can be looked up using the search functions!  Or go to fairmormon

[Kenngo1969]

Is the Book of Mormon directly from God?  It depends on what the meaning of the world "directly" is.  

[Freedom]

7 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Is the Book of Mormon directly from God?  It depends on what the meaning of the world "directly" is.  

This is an important point. Many christians believe the bible is 'god breathed' which to them means directly from Gods mouth. In fact, the expression that is literally translated as god breathed simply means inspired. God seams to do a lot of teachings principles and letting his prophets govern themselves. He is big on practical experience. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Sorry!

They can be looked up using the search functions!  Or go to fairmormon

Or The Interpreter, it has some good stuff on translation.

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I've forgotten what was discussed. I guess I'd really like to know if each word in the BoM was given through the seerstone, or was it a few or many, or was the majority from inspiration. Do we know any of these things. I guess God could put that word down. So really this is probably a non-issue like I said before. But to anti's it apparently is an issue.

 

That is something that is an ongoing debate. I am afraid that you will find different schools of thought on that in LDS academic circles. There is no consensus. I think that the only consensus that will be found among "orthodox" LDS is that it was translated by the gift and power of God, as Joseph Smith stated. I am afraid that you will have to ask God for the answer, since He is the only person left that was involved in the process with whom we can communicate. As it is, we are all seeing through that glass darkly. (Thanks Paul. That is such an apt phrase.)

Glenn

[Calm]

Tac, this article from the interpreter should be what you want if I understand you correctly:

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/the-spectacles-the-stone-the-hat-and-the-book-a-twenty-first-century-believers-view-of-the-book-of-mormon-translation/

"Abstract: This essay seeks to examine the Book of Mormon translation method from the perspective of a regular, nonscholarly, believing member in the twenty-first century, by taking into account both what is learned in Church and what can be learned from historical records that are now easily available. What do we know? What should we know? How can a believing Latter-day Saint reconcile apparently conflicting accounts of the translation process? An examination of the historical sources is used to provide us with a fuller and more complete understanding of the complexity that exists in the early events of the Restoration. These accounts come from both believing and nonbelieving sources, and some skepticism ought to be employed in choosing to accept some of the interpretations offered by some of these sources as fact. However, an examination of these sources provides a larger picture, and the answers to these questions provide an enlightening look into Church history and the evolution of the translation story. This essay focuses primarily on the methods and instruments used in the translation process and how a faithful Latter-day Saint might view these as further evidence of truthfulness of the restored Gospel."

[Scott Lloyd]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Actually, since Joseph was merely reading the Engish words from the stone, we do not in fact know who did the translation into English -- although scholars now suggest that the translation bears all the earmarks of Early Modern English style and syntax in the 16th century.

The English word atonement “unity, onement,” is the source for the verb atone “to make amends for, expiate, make reparation.”  Atonement is the doctrine of the reconciliation of God and man, especially through the life, suffering, and death of Jesus Christ (Webster’s New Universal Unabridged Dictionary).  It is merely used to translate Hebrew, Greek, and other ancient terms in both Bible and Book of Mormon (Exodus 29:33,36, Romans 5:11; 2 Nephi 2:10, Alma 36:17).

 

The Jewish “Day of Atonement,” for example, comes from Hebrew yom kippur, the most holy day of the Jewish year.

 

Compare the Ugaritic sacrificial term np, npy “atonement, expurgation, purification, expiation,”[1] or Ugaritic tšlm “redemption/ payment, atonement.”[2]

 

---

[1] G. del Olmo Lete, Canaanite Religion according to the Liturgical Texts of Ugarit, 2^nd ed. (Ugarit-Verlag, 2014), 16-17,123; KTU 1.40:1,19,36.

 

[2]G. del Olmo Lete, Canaanite Religion According to the Liturgical Texts of Ugarit, 2^nd ed., 165 and n. 106; KTU 1.111:22-23; G. del Olmo Lete & J. Sanmartin, Dictionary of the Ugaritic Language, 2^nd ed., 197, 419.

 

At the most recent FairMormon Conference, the one held in August of this year, Royal Skousen and Stanford Carmack talked about the evidence of the translation having the earmarks of Early Modern English style and syntax from the 16th century.

I just looked, and the transcription of their presentation is not up yet on the FairMormon website. However, here is a link to my very brief report of it in the Church News.

[Tacenda]

Calm, thanks, looks like it's a mixture of things. Appreciate your help.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Tacenda