The conensus on if the BoM is directly from God.

[mfbukowski]

21 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

Oh, you're that @cdowis. We've probably run into each other on Mormon hub before. I'll take your advice and drop the question, but these are good questions that demand an answer. I get tired of people calling me anti-Mormon instead of answering my questions. (And thank you to those of you who do answer)

Look them up on fairmormon   http://www.fairmormon.org/

They are so routine and cookie-cutter that they are not worth re-hashing.

You really need to come up with some original material to get noticed around here.

Folks like Kevin are real scholars- there are quite a few like him here, and their material bears reading, not just repeating the question without reading the answers.  I know you think you are the one who has figured out THE "gotcha" question, but we have heard all of them before.

 

Edited October 5, 2016 by mfbukowski

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

They are so routine and cookie-cutter that they are not worth re-hashing.

You really need to come up with some original material to get noticed around here.

Isn't that the truth...
 

[Kevin Christensen]

On 10/5/2016 at 2:20 PM, Larry Cotrell said:

Deuteronomy 18:22

When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

This is where Jehovah's witness fail the test; maybe we could agree on that.

Here's some of Joseph Smith's predictions:

1) President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. . . . it was the will of God that they should be ordained to the ministry and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh - even fifty six years should wind up the scene. (History of the Church, Vol. 2, page 182). 

God hasn't come back yet, and its been 56 years.

2) I prophecy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left for their wickedness in permitting the murder of men, women and children, and the wholesale plunder and extermination of thousands of her citizens to go unpunished (History of the Church, Vol. 5, page 394).

None of the wrongs were redressed

3) While discussing the petition to Congress, I prophesied, by virtue of the holy Priesthood vested in me, and in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that, if Congress will not hear our petition and grant us protection, they shall be broken up as a government, and God shall damn them, and there shall be nothing left of them - not even a grease spot. (Millennial Star, Vol. 22, p. 455. See also History of the Church (HC), vol. 6, p. 116

This didn't happen.

4) D&C 111:1-5

1. I, the Lord your God, am not displeased with your coming this journey, notwithstanding your follies.

2. I have much treasure in this city for you, for the benefit of Zion, and many people in this city, whom I will gather out in due time for the benefit of Zion, through your instrumentality.

3. Therefore, it is expedient that you should form acquaintance with men in this city, as you shall be led, and as it shall be given you.

4. And it shall come to pass in due time that I will give this city into your hands, that you shall have power over it, insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts; and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours.

5. Concern not yourselves about your debts, for I will give you power to pay them.
 

The treasure wasn't found. The Mormons never took Salem.

5) And now I am prepared to say by the authority of Jesus Christ, that not many years shall pass away before the United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the history of our nation; pestilence, hail, famine, and earthquake will sweep the wicked of this generation from off the face of the land, to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north country. The people of the Lord, those who have complied with the requirements of the new covenant, have already commenced gathering together to Zion, which is in the state of Missouri; therefore I declare unto you the warning which the Lord has commanded to declare unto this generation, remembering that the eyes of my Maker are upon me, and that to him I am accountable for every word I say, wishing nothing worse to my fellow-men than their eternal salvation; therefore, "Fear God, and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment is come." Repent ye, repent ye, and embrace the everlasting covenant and flee to Zion, before the overflowing scourge overtake you, for there are those now living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things, which I have spoken, fulfilled (History of the Church, Vol. 1, pp. 315-316).

This didn't happened

6) D&C 84:1-5

 

1. A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high.

2. Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.

3. Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.

4. Verily, this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.

5. For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

This didn't happen either.

Do you see a pattern?

Deuteronomy 13:5

 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

I am not saying that we should stone false prophets, but Mosaic law shows what God thinks of false prophets, and He's not  a fan.

Sigh...

I got interested and located 28 Biblical Tests for True and False Prophets.  I posted this link earlier.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets

Here is an outline of the 28 tests, with lots of references.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Tests

For those disinclined to click, here:

Wherefore, by their fruits shall ye know them.
—Matthew 7:20

Claims a True Prophet must make

Revelation and Vision

Witnesses

Chosen by God

Ordained by prophesy and the laying on of hands by those in authority

Teaching of Christ

Christ ordained by God to judge all men, and

Teaches belief on him for remission of sins

Testifies that Jesus is "come in the flesh"

Apostles and prophets given "till we all come in a unity of the faith"

Accepts the Biblical God

Character of Teaching

Preaches Repentance

Teaches of one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father of all

Teaches by the spirit, so that your faith stands in the power of God

Opens understanding of the scriptures

Teaching consistent with scripture

Provides knowledge of the heavenly council

Provides knowledge of the Lord's covenant

They teach their followers to expect trials in this life

Personal Character

Seeks to please God, not men

Teaches with authority, and not as a scribe

They lead as willing ensamples to the flock, not for filthy lucre

Recognizes and is united with authorized prophets

They admit to being men of passion, like us, liable to sin

Evidences provided

God bears them witness with signs and gifts of the Holy Ghost according to his own will

A prophet may do works none other man did.

Teaches that the investigators must keep his words to learn the truth of them.

Prophecy

Teaches that we must pray

Over time, arguments against a prophet fail, and demonstrate confusion

I did notice that within the Bible one of the most frequency abused tests is that of prophesy, something that seems easy and obvious only if you don't stop to think about problems of 1- interpretation, 2- how much time should pass, 3 Prophesy as conditional, and 4, whether we get to treat the prophet as God's sock puppet, never ever speaking as a man, but always, as God.

I also gathered passages that describe what a person should do to see truth, and noticed that there is a relationship between the arguments that a person uses to reject a Bible prophet, and whether they also follow the advice in those passages.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Seeing_the_truth

And I went ahead and did a preliminary survey of Joseph Smith in light of the tests.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Considering_Joseph_Smith

Dismissing Joseph is easy if you get to pick and choose the means by which you measure him.  But if you take seriously the Biblical tests, I think you also have grounds to take Joseph Smith very seriously.  And it is also very very difficult to find anyone else among modern voices to take as seriously.

Just saying... as an alternative to the stereotyped grooves that such discussions tend to slide into.

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

 

Edited October 7, 2016 by Kevin Christensen

[notHagoth7]

1 hour ago, Larry Cotrell said:

Here's some of Joseph Smith's predictions:

1) President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. . . . it was the will of God that they should be ordained to the ministry and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh - even fifty six years should wind up the scene. (History of the Church, Vol. 2, page 182). 

1) One should/can/might note that the passage says that time "should" wind up the scene. It specifically does *not* say it "will".

2) Also, *which* specific scene was Joseph talking about when that paraphrase was plucked out of its original context?. (We don't know).

3)  We can discuss *why* such was said, if there is interest. (It likely traces to Joseph's extrapolation/ personal interpretation of something specifically revealed to him in another context....) 

4) Also, there are quite a number of people who believe this timeline *was* literally fulfilled. (I'll likely decline to comment further on *that* aspect of things.)

 

Either way, the assertion that what he said was presumptuous assumes that it was prideful. Was it? It also assumes that "should" means "will" (it doesn't). It assumes that we know exactly which scene Joseph was saying would be wound up (which I don't claim to know - do you?). AND that even if all the latter assumptions were in place, it assumes that the time was never fulfilled (which quite a number of people say it *was* with something very specific).

So what is more presumptuous?

1) Joseph using the word "should"? (If you say it should rain tomorrow, does that make you a false prophet?)

2) Someone else asserting (generations later) that a "should" statement somehow makes him a false prophet?

3) Someone asserting that such a thing makes *everything* else they said invalid? (If your weather prediction doesn't pan out, can your children and grandchildren ignore you from here on out?)

(Let each reader choose carefully.)

Edited October 5, 2016 by notHagoth7

[cdowis]

"fifty six years"

For the same reason that Nathan told David  he would build the temple.

[notHagoth7]

25 minutes ago, cdowis said:

"fifty six years"

For the same reason that Nathan told David  he would build the temple.

That's one interpretation.

Here's another that I alluded to above: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/130.15?lang=eng#14

Either?

Both?

[notHagoth7]

3 hours ago, Larry Cotrell said:

...I am not saying that we should stone false prophets, but Mosaic law shows what God thinks of false prophets, and He's not  a fan.

And, are you agreeing that he promised something better?

1) Do you believe Jesus' promise that he would send prophets, wise men, and scribes?

2) Why do you believe some of them would be treated the way he promised they would?

3) How would you recommend we recognize such messengers as being sent by Him?

4) Applying whatever method you happen to choose for discerning friend from foe, which prophets, wise men, and/or scribes can you point to as being *a* fulfillment of Jesus' promise? 

Edited October 5, 2016 by notHagoth7

[notHagoth7]

58 minutes ago, cdowis said:

...For the same reason that Nathan told David  he would build the temple.

? What parallel are you drawing between Joseph, and David?

Please share how you relate that to any 56 years.

[cdowis]

3 hours ago, notHagoth7 said:

That's one interpretation.

Here's another that I alluded to above: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/130.15?lang=eng#14

Either?

Both?

You are exactly correct.  JS was referring to this promise, but it was conditional on his living that long.

[cdowis]

2 hours ago, notHagoth7 said:

? What parallel are you drawing between Joseph, and David?

Please share how you relate that to any 56 years.

See NotHagoth's post.

[hagoth7]

On 10/5/2016 at 0:20 PM, Larry Cotrell said:

...I am not saying that we should stone false prophets...

1) Nor have you said that people shouldn't. Respectfully, your fence-sitting and silence on this matter is notable.

2) Nor have you provided a single example of true prophets, wise men, and scribes that would be sent, as Jesus clearly promised - as a means to validate your proposed approach.

In such a vacuum, what is one to conclude of your proposed methodology for discerning false messengers - with no demonstrated counterbalancing method for discerning the true ones??

 

The ongoing reticence on this issue reminds me a bit of this from several generations ago:

"our persecutions did not cease; our enemies were like the good old Quaker when he turned the dog out of doors: said he, “I won’t kill thee, thou hast got out of my reach; I cannot kill thee, but I will give thee a bad name;” and he hallooed out “bad dog,” and somebody, supposing the dog to be mad [which back then meant having rabies], shot him. So with us...while in the midst of this, the cry of mad dog was raised...." (George A. Smith, JD 1:43-44)

Edited October 7, 2016 by hagoth7