Patrick Mason at FairMormon

[Daniel2]

Surprised there's so much condemnation of DBMormon.  How many of us regularly verify copyright ownership before sharing YouTube links on FB and the internet?

Sounds like it was an honest mistake.  And he's paid for it now.  And Juliann has expressed appreciation for his donation. 

Can't we move on from it and move to the exploring the issues as they become available, instead of further personal attacks, which are below the scope of this board...?

[Storm Rider]

Just an aside, the problems experienced by Utah Mormon culture are not necessarily the problems being experienced by LDS the world over.  I get really tired of people who think that Utah Mormon culture is universal Mormon culture.  They are different worlds with different problems. 

[DBMormon]

Does FairMormon want to move towards an approach more similar to that of Patrick Mason's?  or would Fair leadership say they disagree with Patrick's perspective.

[Storm Rider]

1 minute ago, Daniel2 said:

Surprised there's so much condemnation of DBMormon.  How many of us regularly verify copyright ownership before sharing YouTube links on FB and the internet?

Sounds like it was an honest mistake.  And he's paid for it now.  And Juliann has expressed appreciation for his donation. 

Can't we move on from it and move to the exploring the issues as they become available, instead of further personal attacks, which are below the scope of this board...?

I think the issue is that DB is someone who knows - it is like having an expert acting as if they they actually ignorant of the topic in which they are supposed to be an expert.  It is a real, distinct clash in expectations.  He should have been chastised and he should have lead the charge.  However, he has done all he could do to make amends and we need to move on. 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

Does FairMormon want to move towards an approach more similar to that of Patrick Mason's?  or would Fair leadership say they disagree with Patrick's perspective.

I'm not part of FairMormon, but my impression is that Mason and FairMormon take a similar approach.  Certainly, Calm (who is often here on this board) is an excellent example of the breadth and depth of approach which FairMormon takes -- she is part of that organization.  Your blatant mischaracterization of what Mason said leaves me doubting that your point is well taken.  Once again, you need to get real, Bill.

[Buckeye]

3 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Sorry, Bill, but your summary of what Prof Mason said is a typical example of spin-doctoring, and has no relationship to what you have been saying.  Moreover, you need to provide the actual website where his lecture is available, even if it costs money, so that people can verify what you are claiming.  Here is my correct summary of his presentation, which I already presented at 

 

 

To be clear, are you claiming that Mason did not say any of the things that DB Mormon attributes to him? Your summary doesn't seem to refute any of the points that DB Mormon claims. If you were there, it would be helpful to know which of the points you are challenging as being misrepresentations. 

[Scott Lloyd]

9 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Sorry, Bill, but your summary of what Prof Mason said is a typical example of spin-doctoring, and has no relationship to what you have been saying.  Moreover, you need to provide the actual website where his lecture is available, even if it costs money, so that people can verify what you are claiming.  Here is my correct summary of his presentation, which I already presented at http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/67797-fairmormon-conference/

 

 

This is a more faithful summary than Bill's.

[smac97]

12 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Surprised there's so much condemnation of DBMormon.  How many of us regularly verify copyright ownership before sharing YouTube links on FB and the internet?

Sounds like it was an honest mistake.  And he's paid for it now.  And Juliann has expressed appreciation for his donation. 

Can't we move on from it and move to the exploring the issues as they become available, instead of further personal attacks, which are below the scope of this board...?

Agreed.  Let's move past this one, folks.  

[Buckeye]

9 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

Does FairMormon want to move towards an approach more similar to that of Patrick Mason's?  or would Fair leadership say they disagree with Patrick's perspective.

I have no insight into FAIR's mindset. They invited Mason. But they also invited Hancock. My guess is that, just as with the church or any organization, there are people within FAIR who would like the approach to be more like Mason. And there are some who maybe wish for the approach of the old guard at FARMS. 

[Scott Lloyd]

10 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Just an aside, the problems experienced by Utah Mormon culture are not necessarily the problems being experienced by LDS the world over.  I get really tired of people who think that Utah Mormon culture is universal Mormon culture.  They are different worlds with different problems. 

Nah, not all that different.

[Calm]

44 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Surprised there's so much condemnation of DBMormon.  How many of us regularly verify copyright ownership before sharing YouTube links on FB and the internet?

I totally get that I am the one who has been driving the criticism of him so I probably should offer up my own explanation as he has done.  I wouldn't have said much more besides pointing out there was a problem with it if he hadn't been involved in FM himself as well as putting out a premium channel.  It was shocking to me that he did so because of his background and it never occurred to me to begin with that he wasn't aware of what he was doing (since the first thing that occurred to me was to see where it came from just in case it was one of the rare videos that we have posted earlier; my memory says it was only the Eubank and Otterson ones and that took me just a few seconds to do so and I am not tech savvy at all when it comes to youtube because the tech I mostly use doesn't have it for some reason).  When he said he wasn't aware of it, it took me awhile to figure out how he could not be aware of it (see how tech savvy I am!) and honestly, I was so ticked off by it after the shock wore off that I wanted to make sure his explanation matched the facts as from what I had read it didn't (both descriptions of the removal didn't use specific information and one was 'just got taken off' while he had said it was taken off quite some time ago).

I appreciate him taking the time to explain rather than just reporting me to the mods.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Calm

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

I have no insight into FAIR's mindset. They invited Mason. But they also invited Hancock. My guess is that, just as with the church or any organization, there are people within FAIR who would like the approach to be more like Mason. And there are some who maybe wish for the approach of the old guard at FARMS. 

Well the broader Fairmormon is willing to consider, in terms of thought, the better. 

[Buckeye]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Nah, not all that different.

Well, here in the Ohio we don't worry about inversions. Or who is going to join the BIG 12. Oh, wait. (http://www.cincinnati.com/story/opinion/editorials/2016/08/12/uc-should-slam-dunk-big-12/88484584/)

[Scott Lloyd]

17 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

Does FairMormon want to move towards an approach more similar to that of Patrick Mason's?  or would Fair leadership say they disagree with Patrick's perspective.

I can't speak for FairMormon. I am only an observer, admirer and occasional donor.

But I have heard FairMormon leadership express on more than one occasion that the only official positions they take on anything are the official positions that the Church itself takes.

So asking if FairMormon is going to endorse or disavow Patrick Mason's "perspective" would be like asking if the Church is going to endorse or disavow his perspective. I would doubt it.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[juliann]

8 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

Absolutely. That's why I'm even more interested in seeing the transcript. For now, my gut says that its more likely that the DN cut out the more controversial statements than that DB Mormon made them up wholecloth. 

What you are seeing is the familiar fire hose approach. Create sensational talking points rather than quotes from the speaker's mouth, put them all in a bullet list one after another. Omit all context and any reference to how those topics were framed. This is the very approach Hardy and Mason condemn. They are asking for communication, accurate representation. 

Again, they both got standing ovations (not a standing ovation, Scott is right as usual.)  However, I have not seen so many people standing after so many speakers as I did this year. So, if a FM audience had that response (including long and loud clapping) do you think what they heard is being fairly represented by this summary here? I'm going by memory but it was a positive yet frank talk. The kind that leaves you excited and exhilarated. Hardly the feeling this fire hose list generates.

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Nah, not all that different.

I have to agree, Scott. Growing up in So. California, I heard "Utah Mormon" used as a term of mild derision, and people suggested that Utah culture existed in some sort of bubble that prevented people from understanding "the real world" (where we lived, natch). Having lived off and on in Utah for many years, I discovered that Mormons in Utah are pretty much like Mormons everywhere else, though fewer are converts. About the only thing I ever saw with any consistency was people from Utah who would move into our ward in Texas and say how excited they were to be in the "mission field" and help us survive its challenges; too often, the suggestion was unmistakable that we didn't know how to manage a ward, but they were there to show us the right way.

Other than that, no, there wasn't a noticeable cultural difference among members, other than the use of "y'all" more frequently.

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

Just dropped a donation in the FairMormon bucket.

Thank you for doing so.  I wasn't particularly gracious in my poking.

PS:  I have no need to verify, but if it is reassuring you should know it is going to happen anyway since I go through all the invoices that come through to me still in order to keep track of membership fees paid...even though I am no longer the membership clerk of FM, I have in the back of my head I might volunteer again and my obsession for having complete records of my own has led me to not suggest they remove me from that mailing and I still file the stuff away just in case.  Maybe this will help me cut the cord...

[Robert F. Smith]

18 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

To be clear, are you claiming that Mason did not say any of the things that DB Mormon attributes to him? Your summary doesn't seem to refute any of the points that DB Mormon claims. If you were there, it would be helpful to know which of the points you are challenging as being misrepresentations. 

I recommend that you listen to Mason for yourself, then see which of our summaries is most accurate.  Compare our statements and see which agrees or disagrees, and to what extent.  I take pretty good notes.  Got me a 3.9 gpa in my years at UCLA (100 hours of tough courses).  I placed my summary on this board immediately following the FairMormon conference.  Bill would have been well advised to compare his notes with those of others (including the DN summary), before going off half-cocked.  I think that his agenda got the better of him, which would be true to form.

[Scott Lloyd]

47 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

Absolutely. That's why I'm even more interested in seeing the transcript. For now, my gut says that its more likely that the DN cut out the more controversial statements than that DB Mormon made them up wholecloth. 

"Made them up wholecloth"? You've set the bar pretty low for him, haven't you? You can do a lot of misrepresenting without actually making things up "wholecloth".

Edited August 16, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I can't speak for FairMormon. I am only an observer, admirer and occasional donor.

But I have heard FairMormon leadership express on more than one occasion that the only official positions they take on anything are the official positions that the Church itself takes.

So asking if FairMormon is going to endorse or disavow Patrick Mason's "perspective" would be like asking if the Church is going to endorse or disavow his perspective. I would doubt it.

As far as I am aware, we have never officially endorsed or disavowed a talk  (save the latter perhaps by removing it from our site and that would only be for extreme reasons where we believed posting it would conflict with our mission).  There has never any intent to represent the Conference speakers as completely aligned with Fairmormon's position (hard to do when we have such a varied community) and disclaimers are all over the place in my experience about speakers and even volunteers not representing FM or the Church, but themselves in their writings.

[Calm]

52 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Is there a link to where we can pay the appropriate price to legally access the talk behind whatever firewall is in place....?  If so, can someone share it?

Daniel

Extra bonus points for asking.

[Tacenda]

52 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

 

 

Like I said, DB. You're not going to win, even by overpaying. Better to take the approach of Elder Oaks.

I think DB did Fair a favor, now everyone will want to buy the rights to watch the streaming video. That will bring in some money. 

[Tacenda]

44 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Just an aside, the problems experienced by Utah Mormon culture are not necessarily the problems being experienced by LDS the world over.  I get really tired of people who think that Utah Mormon culture is universal Mormon culture.  They are different worlds with different problems. 

 

I think your right Storm, I just read this comment from Deseret News and it hit a nerve with me. When I suffered my faith crisis, the bishop knew about it. And nothing happened, no support of any kind. Maybe it would have been different somewhere other than Utah.

Batcat1975

Coppell, TX

Most of my 59 years of life have been lived as an active member, but outside of Utah. When articles and statements like this appear, I often find the church and people they describe foreign and apart from my own personal experience. Is it possible that the defensiveness ascribed to Mormons generally may apply more aptly to those who reside in Utah? I rarely encounter and see such attitudes among members in other parts of the country where I've lived (Tennessee, Michigan, Virginia, Florida, Texas, Arizona). 

Members with doubts of one form or another are certainly not limited to Utah, but in my experience I've never once seen a member expressing sincere doubts who hasn't been embraced, encouraged, supported, and loved by fellow saints and priesthood leaders. Perhaps such things do occur from time to time, and I certainly would find those instances regrettable, but a generalized call for members to be more inclusive and respectful towards those who struggle seems inappropriate and sends the wrong message to those who don't know any better.

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I think DB did Fair a favor, now everyone will want to buy the rights to watch the streaming video. That will bring in some money. 

[Robert F. Smith]

19 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I have to agree, Scott. Growing up in So. California, I heard "Utah Mormon" used as a term of mild derision, and people suggested that Utah culture existed in some sort of bubble that prevented people from understanding "the real world" (where we lived, natch). Having lived off and on in Utah for many years, I discovered that Mormons in Utah are pretty much like Mormons everywhere else, though fewer are converts. About the only thing I ever saw with any consistency was people from Utah who would move into our ward in Texas and say how excited they were to be in the "mission field" and help us survive its challenges; too often, the suggestion was unmistakable that we didn't know how to manage a ward, but they were there to show us the right way.

Other than that, no, there wasn't a noticeable cultural difference among members, other than the use of "y'all" more frequently.

Actually, John, careful research has shown that, within the United States, Utahns (both Mormon and non-Mormon) have more cultural attributes in common than Utah Mormons have with Mormons outside Utah.  I don't know whether we should speak of this as a kind of intermountain west cultural (or socio-political) mentality, but it is certainly there, and I see it all the time on many levels now that I live in Utah Valley.  I recall visiting a ward in Utah Valley back in the 1980s on a Fast Sunday.  One very perceptive woman got up and told those of us who did not come from Utah:  "Please don't let us drive you out of the Church."  I smiled broadly, because it was so true.

I also recall the huge mistake made by the Dialogue board in bringing the journal to SLC for a number of years.  I did my best to remonstrate with the board not to do that, but they ignored my (and others') pleadings, and it very nearly destroyed the journal.  Why?  Due to the overwhelming bipolar disorder characteristic of the State.  The editors lost any sense of perspective and forgot what true Dialogue is all about.  I never subscribed again.