Patrick Mason at FairMormon

[DBMormon]

Patrick Mason recently spoke at FairMormon and gave a very progressive Mormon speech.  I thought it would be good to have a dialogue about the actual points he raises.  the video and audio is behinds Fairmormon's paywall so you will have to take my word for it.  But here is a list of things he says.

1.)  He flatly says we have defined Prophets incorrectly.

2.)  That there is valid reason to doubt.

3.)  That belief is "plausible" (his words) 

4.)  That We made up much of our theology and have put way more in the truth cart then belongs there.

5.) That we should not blame the doubters and that we would be better looking at ourselves for our problems rather than secularists, feminists, intellectuals, and even Satan

6.) That the CES letter was an inevitable response to the false dominant narrative we have taught.  And that said narrative is not his mormonism nor the Mormonism that can flourish in the future.

7.)  He expressed that we must do better to support gender equality and our LGBT brothers and sisters.   He says we aren't loving or inclusive enough

8.)  He says our culture and leadership have sadly adopted a non-apologizing posture towards its mistakes

9.)    He says we need to repent as a church and apologize for our serious errors.

10.)  He says we need to Incorporate more diversity into our church ( race, gender, economic status. sexual orientation, and other differences)

 10.)  He concludes that he is scared of a immature faith never growing up and giving space for nuance and complexity and he fears a fundamentalist takeover

All this at Fairmormon and strangely this is the very same stuff I say and get blasted for.  I also have it on good account that FairMormon's leadership has said behind the scenes this kind of Mormonism and perspective is where they want to head.  Any comments from FairMormon would be appreciated on whether you liked and agreed with Patrick perspective.

 

Edited August 17, 2016 by DBMormon

[Calm]

"I thought it would be good to have a dialogue about the actual points he raises.  the video and audio is behinds Fairmormon's paywall so you will have to take my word for it.  But here is a list of things he says."

And yet you apparently posted a stolen video link for the presentation on your facebook page.  Of course you know you would get dinged, maybe even banned for posting pirated material here.

Note:  I have been rightly called out for coming across as if I meant that DB was pirating the material himself.  I meant in my accusations that he was using stolen material, not stealing it himself.  At first I assumed that he was doing it knowingly, he explained otherwise.  I still am totally against making use of stolen (by oneself or by others) materials and believe people should rectify their use of such by paying for the use or dumping all material that came from original stolen material that might bring any sort of benefit to one if not given permission to use it (because this justifies the pirating to a certain extent).

Edited August 16, 2016 by Calm

[DBMormon]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

"I thought it would be good to have a dialogue about the actual points he raises.  the video and audio is behinds Fairmormon's paywall so you will have to take my word for it.  But here is a list of things he says."

And yet you apparently posted a stolen video link for the presentation on your facebook page.  Of course you know you would get dinged, maybe even banned for posting pirated material here.

someone shared with me and I was unaware it was protected content.  but don't let the facts get in the way.

[DBMormon]

Since we got that out of the way, Lets discuss the substance of what Patrick has stated.

 

Edited August 16, 2016 by DBMormon

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

someone shared with me and I was unaware it was protected content.  but don't let the facts get in the way.

Talk about not letting the facts get in the way.  How eager were you to be in on the passing around of it among the exmormons that you didn't care enough to check the facts about its source?

You were a member of Fairmormon and you don't know how we treat videos from conferences, that it is a part of how we pay for them?  Did you even bother to check?  Notice it wasn't the Fairmormon youtube channel?  

Would you appreciate people treating your premium service with the same lack of respect?

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

Since we got that out of the way, Lets discuss the substance of what Patrick has stated.

 

You are aware enough now that the video is supposed to be only available behind FM's paywall to mention it here.  Dehlin shares the video and you are not the least bit suspicious that it was a leak?  Right.

 

[stemelbow]

29 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

Patrick Mason recently spoke at FairMormon and gave a very progressive Mormon speech.  I thought it would be good to have a dialogue about the actual points he raises.  the video and audio is behinds Fairmormon's paywall so you will have to take my word for it.  But here is a list of things he says.

1.)  He flatly says we have defined Prophets incorrectly.

2.)  That there is valid reason to doubt.

3.)  That belief is "plausible" (his words) 

4.)  That We made up much of our theology and have put way more in the truth cart then belongs there.

4.) That we should not blame the doubters and that we would be better looking at ourselves for our problems rather than secularists, feminists, intellectuals, and even Satan

5.) That the CES letter was an inevitable response to the false dominant narrative we have taught.  And that said narrative is not his mormonism nor the Mormonism that can flourish in the future.

6.)  He expressed that we must do better to support gender equality and our LGBT brothers and sisters.   He says we aren't loving or inclusive enough

7.)  He says our culture and leadership have sadly adopted a non-apologizing posture towards its mistakes

8.)    He says we need to repent as a church and apologize for our serious errors.

9.)  He says we need to Incorporate more diversity into our church ( race, gender, economic status. sexual orientation, and other differences)

 10.)  He concludes that he is scared of a immature faith never growing up and giving space for nuance and complexity and he fears a fundamentalist takeover

All this at Fairmormon and strangely this is the very same stuff I say and get blasted for.  I also have it on good account that FairMormon's leadership has said behind the scenes this kind of Mormonism and perspective is where they want to head.  Any comments from FairMormon would be appreciated on whether you liked and agreed with Patrick perspective.

 

Those 10 points sounds absolutely awesome to me.  Can't wait to be able to hear or read it myself. 

[stemelbow]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

Talk about not letting the facts get in the way.  How eager were you to be in on the passing around of it among the exmormons that you didn't care enough to check the facts about its source?

You were a member of Fairmormon and you don't know how we treat videos from conferences, that it is a part of how we pay for them?  Did you even bother to check?  Notice it wasn't the Fairmormon youtube channel?  

Would you appreciate people treating your premium service with the same lack of respect?

Do you think he was trying to hurt Fairmormon? 

[Calm]

Using stolen property doesn't have to mean one is trying to hurt someone, it does show disrespect and lack of caring though.  And issues of integrity.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Calm

[juliann]

4 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Do you think he was trying to hurt Fairmormon? 

He was violating copyright law. Do you think he would be on a message board wanting to talk about the content of his own subscription podcast?

[smac97]

30 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

someone shared with me and I was unaware it was protected content.  but don't let the facts get in the way.

And yet you are aware of it being protected content now, yet you still have the link up at your page.  How 'bout we settle the matter by you removing the link?  Wouldn't that be the best way to go?

Thanks,

-Smac

EDIT TO ADD: It looks like YouTube took it down.

Edited August 16, 2016 by smac97

[DBMormon]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

Talk about not letting the facts get in the way.  How eager were you to be in on the passing around of it among the exmormons that you didn't care enough to check the facts about its source?

You were a member of Fairmormon and you don't know how we treat videos from conferences, that it is a part of how we pay for them?  Did you even bother to check?  Notice it wasn't the Fairmormon youtube channel?  

Would you appreciate people treating your premium service with the same lack of respect?

I didn't know the video was copyrighted and the link was from a non Fair Source.  Sadly I didn't do my homework on it.  I am sorry for not investigating further before sharing a link shared with me.  I assumed it was a fairmormon youtube video and sadly didn't ensure that was the case.  Now can we move on or is there something more you want?  I agree that sharing someone's personal work when they don't want it shared and it is copyrighted would be bad.  Sadly sometimes we assume it is safe and only discover such when a link gets shut down.  Do you need a further apology?  Also I would love someone to explain to me where one's right to discuss copyrighted material ends when it is news worthy and being discussed.  But please message me privately so as not to further distract this thread.

http://mediashift.org/2013/06/helping-journalists-use-copyright-law/  <------ my layman mind can not discern.  Please PM me as I would like to know going forward what makes use of copyrighted material on the up and up and which uses are a violation.  there seems to be journalistic room when reporting on and discussing such.

And again.  I did not create the link and don't even know who did.  Someone shared it with me (I have 4000 facebook friends.... 98% i do not directly know) and I reshared it.  Again sorry.

 

 

 

 

[juliann]

30 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

someone shared with me and I was unaware it was protected content.  but don't let the facts get in the way.

You, who also put out protected media, are not aware. Don't let the facts get in the way indeed. I'll believe you when you give all of us access to your newest subscription podcast so we can discuss it.  You can then give this explanation to your own subscribers.

[Storm Rider]

Just looking over your list you cited and without seeing the actual talk, my knee-jerk response:

• It has a screeching tone to it that turns me off, yet...
• I don't have a problem with some of the things mentioned.  I use to teach my children that humans create their own hell.  I recognize that members of the church and its leaders do the same thing.  Those who expect perfection out of their leaders - much less of themselves - will be overwhelming unimpressed with some of the poor choices leaders make.
• The Church is not a stand alone entity - it is individuals in at all levels.
• You find what you look for - if one is focused on the faults in others don't be surprised when you find faults.  Of course, if you actually choose to look for the good in others you will find it.  That goes for leaders as well as ourselves.
• God is not, never has been, and never will be inclusive of sin.  What God offers is to forgive our sins - each and every one of them - if we choose, if we are willing to follow him.  It is a non-starter to begin demanding that we need to accept certain sins while still trying to define all those other sins as bad.  Beginning with dishonesty already is building in destruction and failure.  Gosh, who do you think would inspire people to do that?  Oh, I forgot, we need to minimize that Satan is real, viable, and committed to our personal destruction as well as the destruction of the Church of Jesus Christ.
• I agree that the leaders of the Church - the President and the Twelve - need to acknowledge where error has been committed, repent of of it and move on.  The steps of repentance are real and they are required of each of us.  If authority has been abused then repent of it and move on.
• I fear a neo-faithfulness that creates its own pseudo religion that is thought to be superior, more sophisticated,  and yet having nothing in common with the gospel of Jesus Christ that has been around for some two thousand years.  Creating a new tradition out of whole cloth should be recognized for what it is - a new, man-created religion. 

[DBMormon]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

You are aware enough now that the video is supposed to be only available behind FM's paywall to mention it here.  Dehlin shares the video and you are not the least bit suspicious that it was a leak?  Right.

 

I got it in a private Facebook message from someone (not John Dehlin) asking me what I thought of what Patrick stated.

[DBMormon]

17 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Those 10 points sounds absolutely awesome to me.  Can't wait to be able to hear or read it myself. 

awesome.  Glad to hear you liked them.  I am curious though of what FairMormon Leadership thought of the talk and whether this is the perspective they wish to move towards?

[hope_for_things]

48 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

Patrick Mason recently spoke at FairMormon and gave a very progressive Mormon speech.  I thought it would be good to have a dialogue about the actual points he raises.  the video and audio is behinds Fairmormon's paywall so you will have to take my word for it.  But here is a list of things he says.

Sounds like an great talk, thanks for sharing this summary, I can get behind this kind of approach personally.

How do you think it was received with the FAIR crowd?  I'm thinking there would be many of the old school apologists that would bristle with Patrick's straightforward evaluations and suggestions.  

[Calm]

DB, You knew it was behind a paywall and did not post a link here.  Yet you had the link still up on your facebook page.  I think that speaks volumes for what you actually knew.

[Scott Lloyd]

47 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

someone shared with me and I was unaware it was protected content.  but don't let the facts get in the way.

 

46 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

Since we got that out of the way, Lets discuss the substance of what Patrick has stated.

 

 

33 minutes ago, Calm said:

Talk about not letting the facts get in the way.  How eager were you to be in on the passing around of it among the exmormons that you didn't care enough to check the facts about its source?

You were a member of Fairmormon and you don't know how we treat videos from conferences, that it is a part of how we pay for them?  Did you even bother to check?  Notice it wasn't the Fairmormon youtube channel?  

Would you appreciate people treating your premium service with the same lack of respect?

 

28 minutes ago, Calm said:

You are aware enough now that the video is supposed to be only available behind FM's paywall to mention it here.  Dehlin shares the video and you are not the least bit suspicious that it was a leak?  Right.

 

 

27 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Do you think he was trying to hurt Fairmormon? 

 

18 minutes ago, juliann said:

He was violating copyright law. Do you think he would be on a message board wanting to talk about the content of his own subscription podcast?

 

17 minutes ago, smac97 said:

And yet you are aware of it being protected content now, yet you still have the link up at your page.  How 'bout we settle the matter by you removing the link?  Wouldn't that be the best way to go?

Thanks,

-Smac

EDIT TO ADD: It looks like YouTube took it down.

People, people!

DBMormon, by his own declaration, lives according to a double standard. He told me on a thread the other day that because I am a journalist and he is a carpet-salesman-turned-pawnbroker, I have to live by ethics that don't apply to him.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

I got it in a private Facebook message from someone (not John Dehlin) asking me what I thought of what Patrick stated.

How does that change anything?  You knew that it was protected on FM.  You did not share it here intentionally because it was to be paid for content.  And now you are claiming you didn't know it was pirated?

[Calm]

DB, do you have any intention on purchasing the video or will you continue to make use of stolen property for your personal benefit?

[DBMormon]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

DB, You knew it was behind a paywall and did not post a link here.  Yet you had the link still up on your facebook page.  I think that speaks volumes for what you actually knew.

the link on my facebook page was dead long before I posted comments here.  The link posted on facebook was last night.  It was dead this morning.  Once I saw it was taken down I messaged the person who shared it and they informed me it had been removed for copyright reasons.  I have not reposted or made an attempt to repost since then.  I get that everyone would like to make it work in their mind to have me doing something sinister.... so please by all means

[DBMormon]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

DB, You knew it was behind a paywall and did not post a link here.  Yet you had the link still up on your facebook page.  I think that speaks volumes for what you actually knew.

would you like me to remove the dead link?  it is already dead?  there is nothing there.  Please let me know if it is important to you that I remove a dead link.  And I will.

 

[Calm]

Yes, you should remove anything that promotes the use of pirated material.

Will you pay for your own use now?

 

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

the link on my facebook page was dead long before I posted comments here.  The link posted on facebook was last night.  It was dead this morning.  Once I saw it was taken down I messaged the person who shared it and they informed me it had been removed for copyright reasons.  I have not reposted or made an attempt to repost since then.  I get that everyone would like to make it work in their mind to have me doing something sinister.... so please by all means

When this morning?