Bill Reel's Sunstone Presentation and a Path to the Disavowal of D&C 132

[ALarson]

8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So will a loving family be together in each others presence in eternity?  I think so.
But will they be permitted to function as a family without obeying the laws related to eternal families?  Perhaps not.
 

Honest question...

So what do you believe functioning "as a family" will mean?  How will those families that are "permitted to function as a family" be different from those families who are "together in each others presence for eternity"?

 

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Honest question...

So what do you believe functioning "as a family" will mean?  How will those families that are "permitted to function as a family" be different from those families who are "together in each others presence for eternity"?

 

You know what I mean.
I do not believe that husbands and wives will live together as married couples (and all that entails) unless sealed as such for eternity AND are willing to abide the conditions of such an eternal marriage.   Or that parents will have any claim on their unsealed children as a family kingdom, heirs, or posterity.
All blessings are conditional on obedience to the laws attached.

I am not convinced that separation will be the case.  But I do think many blessings will be withheld from those who refuse to abide.
If there are angels in the CK who remain separately and singly for all eternity (or at least for 1 eternity) and they are living among those who are exalted eternal families, I should think what I am saying is pretty clear.
 

Edited August 4, 2016 by JLHPROF

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You know what I mean.
I do not believe that husbands and wives will live together as married couples (and all that entails) unless sealed as such for eternity AND are willing to abide the conditions of such an eternal marriage.
All blessings are conditional on obedience to the laws attached.

No, I really didn't know what you believed.  Thanks for the answer.

I'm assuming you believe that procreation will be accomplished the same there as it is here (or why would it matter if you lived together as husband and wife vs, just being together)?

Edited August 5, 2016 by ALarson

[VideoGameJunkie]

38 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Well...no wonder you have such big questions and searching so hard for answers.  My PB said a part of this too..no mention of plural marriage...but I would come forth to take my place in the Celestial Kingdom of God.  If you believe in your PB...let it be..it will happen...sounds like you are ever ready and ever worthy so enjoy life and see what happens.  It is okay to be happy in this life.

 

Well I shared this much I'll go ahead and share what it says. It says I'll come forth in the Morning of the First Resurrection with power, with glory, and with a renewed sense of purpose that I will be able to yet accomplish additional things that I wasn't able to accomplish during my earth life.

[Teancum]

55 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Yep!
 - but that's ok.  As long as I end up wherever Joseph, Brigham, John, Wilford, Lorenzo, Joseph F, Heber C. Kimball, the Pratt bros, Hyrum etc end up I will be very happy with my lot.  I know they will end up with our Father (and they may yet be proven far more correct than those who disavow or prevaricate).

Heh.  You might end up in Hell then.  ;-).   And no you don't really know where they are. 

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Well I shared this much I'll go ahead and share what it says. It says I'll come forth in the Morning of the First Resurrection with power, with glory, and with a renewed sense of purpose that I will be able to yet accomplish additional things that I wasn't able to accomplish during my earth life.

It sounds to me that it is speaking of eternal progression and being able to move forward in terms of personal growth.  I don't read anything that hints of plural marriage myself though it could mean marriage if you die unmarried; we are all promised that chance btw.

I am assuming there is much in your life you desire to accomplish besides marriage and if so, if you are unable to accomplish these things you can do so in resurrection.  Are you desiring plural marriage as well?

[jkwilliams]

13 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Heh.  You might end up in Hell then.  ;-).   And no you don't really know where they are. 

Well, it's a safe bet you and I are going to hell. Don't know who else will join us.

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, Tacenda said:

What, no letter to his daughters?

Check the title of the book. Perhaps there is a book waiting for you to edit.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

55 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I'm assuming you believe that procreation will be accomplished the same there as it is here (or why would it matter if you lived together as husband and wife vs, just being together)?

Of course not. Everyone knows those particular body parts drop off in the resurrection.

[VideoGameJunkie]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

It sounds to me that it is speaking of eternal progression and being able to move forward in terms of personal growth.  I don't read anything that hints of plural marriage myself though it could mean marriage if you die unmarried; we are all promised that chance btw.

I am assuming there is much in your life you desire to accomplish besides marriage and if so, if you are unable to accomplish these things you can do so in resurrection.  Are you desiring plural marriage as well?

I am not desiring plural marriage. I am desiring personal revelation for an answer on if it's going to be a part of my life in the eternities. I desire a personal revelation to solve my mind worry once and for all.

[Rain]

9 hours ago, Jeanne said:

This is warped.  I am sorry...but in my opinion..when your genes, hair color and personality comes from your parents..they don't belong to anyone else. 

Please be careful with this.  Some who have adopted children and birth parents who felt it best to have their children adopted may struggle/hurt with what you said. Parenting is not just biology.   

If I felt my children would be much better off by being sealed to JS and Emma I would have done it long ago. I don't feel that way, so it is a moot point, but I would not hesitate if I knew the blessing would be (not saying it is) my child having exhaltation. 

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I'm not a non LDS Christian, so it has nothing to do with my feelings. But I know that they believe they'll be with their loved ones on the other side. 

That's a fairly new concept.  Many I have talked with felt they wouldn't even know their spouse as once having been a spouse let alone be with them. 

1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

What interests me a little is there's a part at the end of my patriarchal blessing talking ...

Is really best to talk about your blessing with Heavenly Father or those closest to you who have an understanding what a blessing is. Others just won't have the Spiritual understanding of them because it isn't their right to have. 

Edited August 5, 2016 by Rain

[Rain]

10 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I am not desiring plural marriage. I am desiring personal revelation for an answer on if it's going to be a part of my life in the eternities. I desire a personal revelation to solve my mind worry once and for all.

Are you ready for that? I can tell you from experience that knowing ahead of when you are ready to know something isn't that great. 

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I am not desiring plural marriage. I am desiring personal revelation for an answer on if it's going to be a part of my life in the eternities. I desire a personal revelation to solve my mind worry once and for all.

Then it sounds like it won't be happening to you in the next life.

[JLHPROF]

50 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

 I desire a personal revelation to solve my mind worry once and for all.

What is there to worry about?  That you might or you might not?  What is the worry about?

[Jeanne]

55 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I am not desiring plural marriage. I am desiring personal revelation for an answer on if it's going to be a part of my life in the eternities. I desire a personal revelation to solve my mind worry once and for all.

 

48 minutes ago, Rain said:

Please be careful with this.  Some who have adopted children and birth parents who felt it best to have their children adopted may struggle/hurt with what you said. Parenting is not just biology.   

If I felt my children would be much better off by being sealed to JS and Emma I would have done it long ago. I don't feel that way, so it is a moot point, but I would not hesitate if I knew the blessing would be (not saying it is) my child having exhaltation. 

That's a fairly new concept.  Many I have talked with felt they wouldn't even know their spouse as once having been a spouse let alone be with them. 

Is really best to talk about your blessing with Heavenly Father or those closest to you who have an understanding what a blessing is. Others just won't have the Spiritual understanding of them because it isn't their right to have. 

Ouch...you are right about what I said  i didn't even think..and of course..families are groups of people who love and care for each other.  My apologies to any and all with adopive families..thanks for calling me out on this Rain.  Please know that it was not my intention.  Husbands/fathers should be with their families..that was all I meant.

[Scott Lloyd]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

No problem.  I don't have a clue how it is all going to work out and given it can take a wonderfully special kind of man to marry a sealed woman knowing in the eyes of the Church there is a general belief that his children will be seen in eternity as the children of another man plus all those who adopt or fostered as their own children of those who have died worthy, I suspect over the years there are many loving, worthy parents who share their children's relationship with other loving, worthy parents, neither of them somehow loving the children more than the other, I see it as quite unlikely that the family structure will end up linear as we currently portray it in sealings.

Iow, I believe your trust is very reasonable and fully deserved.

I agree there is a great deal we don't understand and probably won't for a long time. 

Marion D. Hanks once told me (though I don't know if it originated with him): "To believe in God is to trust that all the rules will be fair and there will be wonderful surprises."

[Rain]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

 

Ouch...you are right about what I said  i didn't even think..and of course..families are groups of people who love and care for each other.  My apologies to any and all with adopive families..thanks for calling me out on this Rain.  Please know that it was not my intention.  Husbands/fathers should be with their families..that was all I meant.

I know it wasn't your intention.  I know you have a love for many people.

I used to feel stronger about children being with parents and then I started to wonder, "Just how is that going to work out?" I have 3 children. If their spouses are all sealed to their parents then suddenly we have 4 sets of parents connected with my children.  Not a big deal, but let's say the other parents all have 10 children who are sealed to spouses who are sealed to their parents.  And let's go further than that.  - up the line with my parents and their 5 children and my husband's parents and their 5 children.  All of the sudden we have a whole lot of people who are going to "be together" in eternity.  Space-wise just with 3 generations that is a whole lot of room we need to be together in.  So I started to realize I probably really have no understanding what it means to be sealed to my children.  There is probably something quite wondrous in how it all works.

Then, years ago my friend said to me, "yes, these are my children, but first and foremost they are Heavenly Father's children. Right now they are a privilege to raise and we have responsibility and joy from it, but they are His children. " I really didn't like that kind of thinking for a long time.  Then I had a child start to slip away.  He will always be dear to my heart.  I will always love him.  I will always have a deep connection to him, but there is great peace in knowing that he has always been Heavenly Father's child and always will be because He understands my son so much better and he has a plan for my son that I cannot begin to comprehend.  So now my biggest desire is not to have him with me in the next life, but to have Heavenly Father have my son in the next life.  And you know what?  If both he and me are with Heavenly Father everything will work out.

[sunstoned]

9 hours ago, bluebell said:

I don't read buyers remorse in those statements.  I read remorse that is unconnected with Henry and all about her and her relationship with God.  Neither is it obvious to me that Zina married Henry just to get JS off her back.  

I think we have to be careful not to embrace specific interpretations of words when the words themselves are ambiguous.  We here know just how incredibly difficult it is to write something so that people understand what we mean to say.  Even after pages of back and forth replies trying to clarify, misunderstandings are still more the norm than not!

What we do know is that JS's practice of polygamy/polyandry was not in keeping with section 132. Zina was not a virgin and he did not have Emma's permission.  His practice was done in secret, behind Emma's back.  If JS held section 132 in such low regard, then why should we feel obligated to support it.

[Hamba Tuhan]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

I suspect over the years there are many loving, worthy parents who share their children's relationship with other loving, worthy parents, neither of them somehow loving the children more than the other, I see it as quite unlikely that the family structure will end up linear as we currently portray it in sealings.

As a never-married male, I would be happy to love and support, teach and encourage children who may have obtained the Abrahamic covenant by means of another man -- because really, that's what the sealing is all about. It doesn't matter through whom children obtain their blessings, just that they have them. In my single state, I have done everything I could to love, teach, and bless other people's children. If the opportunity arose to do that by entering into a pre-existing family, why wouldn't I jump at it? Of all people, we Latter-day Saints should understand how this works.

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I am not desiring plural marriage. I am desiring personal revelation for an answer on if it's going to be a part of my life in the eternities. I desire a personal revelation to solve my mind worry once and for all.

How about a PH blessing until then?

[Calm]

54 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I agree there is a great deal we don't understand and probably won't for a long time. 

Marion D. Hanks once told me (though I don't know if it originated with him): "To believe in God is to trust that all the rules will be fair and there will be wonderful surprises."

Even though my dad never really 'got me' (he was not particularly insightful when it came to what made people tick, as brilliant as he was with the rest of the world; sometimes I wonder what the person he thought I was turned out to be) he proved time and time again he was willing to go all out to save his family.  I can imagine someone who knows me better than I do myself and Dad taught me to trust in my father's infinite love and willingness to sacrifice, so it is very easy for me to trust in my Father's infinte love and wisdom.  It is always painful when I come across people that are not so fortunate and unfortunately there are a lot of them.

I am really looking forward to the surprises.

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

What we do know is that JS's practice of polygamy/polyandry was not in keeping with section 132. Zina was not a virgin and he did not have Emma's permission.  His practice was done in secret, behind Emma's back.  If JS held section 132 in such low regard, then why should we feel obligated to support it.

Give Joseph a break.

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, Rain said:

.  Then I had a child start to slip away.  He will always be dear to my heart.  I will always love him.  I will always have a deep connection to him, but there is great peace in knowing that he has always been Heavenly Father's child and always will be because He understands my son so much better and he has a plan for my son that I cannot begin to comprehend.  So now my biggest desire is not to have him with me in the next life, but to have Heavenly Father have my son in the next life.  And you know what?  If both he and me are with Heavenly Father everything will work out.

That is stunningly beautiful.

[sunstoned]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Give Joseph a break.

Why?

[James Tunney]

37 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

Why?

I have to agree. Why give him a break?  He didn't follow his own revelation.  He didn't always get Emma's approval and didn't limit his appetite to virgins.

Edited August 5, 2016 by James Tunney
punctuation