Bill Reel's Sunstone Presentation and a Path to the Disavowal of D&C 132

[HappyJackWagon]

8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken–HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do.  - Brigham Young

Ok. I'm familiar with that quote but it doesn't answer the question.  If God can place Even with Adam in the garden why not also place his other wives Jane, Martha, Katy, and Delores in the garden to really get the procreation rockin and rollin?

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Ok. I'm familiar with that quote but it doesn't answer the question.  If God can place Even with Adam in the garden why not also place his other wives Jane, Martha, Katy, and Delores in the garden to really get the procreation rockin and rollin?

Exodus 21:10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.

Perhaps there is a principle here.

[HappyJackWagon]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

Exodus 21:10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.

Perhaps there is a principle here.

OK. Still not answering the question. Any theories about why, if polygamy is so important for raising a righteous seed to God, God would give Adam multiple wives to begin with, especially if he already had multiple wives in eternity?

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Are Jesus and Heavenly Father living plural marriage? That's what I want to know. Are we trying to be like Jesus and Heavenly Father or are we trying to be like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young? Or are they all living Celestial polygamy in heaven?

Why does it matter to you?  We don't have to do everything Christ and the Father do to be one with them.  You don't have to be crucified.  I don't have to somehow become male.

We are promised eternal monogamy will lead to exaltation which means we are one with God.  What higher status could plural marriage bring than that?  God's glory, however or whatever that is, he is somehow not only willing to but able to share with us (which leads to more infinite glory in my mind, such selflessness, willing to not only do all for their children, but then give us all that they are as well).

[Calm]

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

OK. Still not answering the question. Any theories about why, if polygamy is so important for raising a righteous seed to God, God would give Adam multiple wives to begin with, especially if he already had multiple wives in eternity?

Polygamy is not important to raising seed unto God, imo.  It is simply one of the tools he uses from time to time.

[HappyJackWagon]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Why does it matter to you?  We don't have to do everything Christ and the Father do to be one with them.  You don't have to be crucified.  I don't have to somehow become male.

We are promised eternal monogamy will lead to exaltation which means we are one with God.  What higher status could plural marriage bring than that?  God's glory, however or whatever that is, he is somehow not only willing to but able to share with us (which leads to more infinite glory in my mind, such selflessness, willing to not only do all for their children, but then give us all that they are as well).

I've never heard it said quite like this before. I certainly agree that it is a standard teaching for husband and wife, sealed, can gain exaltation, but are you aware of any place that states "eternal monogamy will lead to exaltation"?

I ask because I think that is what causes a great deal of the angst. A husband and wife may be sealed but there's always this possibility out there that it won't remain monogamous.

[Gray]

5 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

OK. Still not answering the question. Any theories about why, if polygamy is so important for raising a righteous seed to God, God would give Adam multiple wives to begin with, especially if he already had multiple wives in eternity?

Remember, according to President Young, Adam is our God. Perhaps he started out each world with a different wife. 

Edited August 4, 2016 by Gray

[JLHPROF]

24 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

 but are you aware of any place that states "eternal monogamy will lead to exaltation"?

I ask because I think that is what causes a great deal of the angst. A husband and wife may be sealed but there's always this possibility out there that it won't remain monogamous.

• I attended the school of the prophets. Brother John Holeman made a long speech upon the subject of Poligamy. He Contended that no person Could have a Celestial glory unless He had a plurality of wives. Speeches were made By L. E. Harrington O Pratt Erastus Snow, D Evans J. F. Smith Lorenzo Young. President Young said there would be men saved in the Celestial Kingdom of God with one wife with Many wives & with No wife at all. - Wilford Woodruff Journal

Although this does say salvation, not exaltation.
Angels that are single ministering servants in the lowest degree are saved in the Celestial Kingdom.  But they are not exalted.

[VideoGameJunkie]

What do you have to do to merit the 3 levels of the Celestial Kingdom? This is just my own assumption but it feels good in my heart so here's my list for what you have to do to go where:

Top level or Exaltation: Be sealed to a spouse in the temple. 

Middle level: Get endowed in the temple

Lower level: Get baptized and receive Holy Ghost

Is that how it looks in your mind? I feel pretty confident it's this way.

 

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

What do you have to do to merit the 3 levels of the Celestial Kingdom? This is just my own assumption but it feels good in my heart so here's my list for what you have to do to go where:

Top level or Exaltation: Be sealed to a spouse in the temple. 

Middle level: Get endowed in the temple

Lower level: Get baptized and receive Holy Ghost

Is that how it looks in your mind? I feel pretty confident it's this way.

 

In my mind, I picture one heaven, that way no one is separate. Families can be together, my foot.

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

In my mind, I picture one heaven, that way no one is separate. Families can be together, my foot.

Is there any Christian religion that teaches that you get to be with your family even if you don't do what Christ says you have to do to be with them?  

[JLHPROF]

12 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

What do you have to do to merit the 3 levels of the Celestial Kingdom? This is just my own assumption but it feels good in my heart so here's my list for what you have to do to go where:

Top level or Exaltation: Be sealed to a spouse in the temple. 

Middle level: Get endowed in the temple

Lower level: Get baptized and receive Holy Ghost

Is that how it looks in your mind? I feel pretty confident it's this way.

Something like that, allowing for the fact that we have until the final judgment and resurrection to choose our course.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

If God can place Eve in the garden to be his wife, why not also place Jane, Martha, Katy, and Delores as well to really kick things off quickly? I think that's what he meant.

 

Maybe because both Adam and Eve lived for so long that it was unnecessary?  I have no idea.

[Tacenda]

35 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Is there any Christian religion that teaches that you get to be with your family even if you don't do what Christ says you have to do to be with them?  

I'm not a non LDS Christian, so it has nothing to do with my feelings. But I know that they believe they'll be with their loved ones on the other side. I like the idea that we're all children, or angels. And not busy having spirit children, when I already have my family.  And dollars to donuts, they believe in a merciful God, who won't send them to hell. I believe hell is a man made belief any way. And maybe I'll go to hell for believing it. 

Just watching movies like "Miracles from Heaven", and reading NDE's, tells me this is so. ETA: I like this discussion on the LDS.Net forum about it.

http://lds.net/forums/topic/32905-christian-view-of-eternal-families/

Edited August 4, 2016 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

Just now, Tacenda said:

I'm not a non LDS Christian, so it has nothing to do with my feelings. But do know they do believe they'll be with their loved ones on the other side. I like the idea that we're all children, or angels. And not busy having spirit children, when I already have one.  And dollars to donuts, they believe in a merciful God also who won't send them to hell. I believe hell is a man made belief.

Interesting. 

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Interesting. 

I added more to my post. I think it may even help people like VGJ. Hope so at least. Since marriage isn't a prerequisite, of living with God. 

[VideoGameJunkie]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I added more to my post. I think it may even help people like VGJ. Hope so at least. Since marriage isn't a prerequisite, of living with God. 

Thanks but I wanna be the very best like no man ever was. To catch them is my real test, to train them is my cause. Pokémon!

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken–HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do.  - Brigham Young

Doesn't those who run the church view this as false doctrine and heresy and preaching it can get you ex'd. 

[JLHPROF]

14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'm not a non LDS Christian

Are you sure about that?
Just kidding you Tacenda -

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I know that they believe they'll be with their loved ones on the other side. I like the idea that we're all children, or angels. And not busy having spirit children, when I already have my family.  And dollars to donuts, they believe in a merciful God, who won't send them to hell. I believe hell is a man made belief any way. And maybe I'll go to hell for believing it.

Joseph Smith was a lot closer to this, even with the theology of multiple heavens and kingdoms, than we may think.
I'm not convinced that the Telestial/Terrestrial/Celestial are all separate locations at all.
I do think there will be some separation based on the laws obeyed and the choices made.  I also think there will be restrictions placed on those who were/are unwilling to abide the laws needed for the blessings.

So will a loving family be together in each others presence in eternity?  I think so.
But will they be permitted to function as a family without obeying the laws related to eternal families?  Perhaps not.
 

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Doesn't those who run the church view this as false doctrine and heresy and preaching it can get you ex'd.

Yep!
 - but that's ok.  As long as I end up wherever Joseph, Brigham, John, Wilford, Lorenzo, Joseph F, Heber C. Kimball, the Pratt bros, Hyrum etc end up I will be very happy with my lot.  I know they will end up with our Father (and they may yet be proven far more correct than those who disavow or prevaricate).

[Jeanne]

6 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Doesn't those who run the church view this as false doctrine and heresy and preaching it can get you ex'd. 

Yeah..I thought there was some disavowal there on this.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Jeanne

[Jeanne]

24 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'm not a non LDS Christian, so it has nothing to do with my feelings. But I know that they believe they'll be with their loved ones on the other side. I like the idea that we're all children, or angels. And not busy having spirit children, when I already have my family.  And dollars to donuts, they believe in a merciful God, who won't send them to hell. I believe hell is a man made belief any way. And maybe I'll go to hell for believing it. 

Just watching movies like "Miracles from Heaven", and reading NDE's, tells me this is so. ETA: I like this discussion on the LDS.Net forum about it.

http://lds.net/forums/topic/32905-christian-view-of-eternal-families/

Thanks for the link.  I have always thought even as an active LDS woman that having children through all the eternities sounded like extreme boredom.  I just want to visit with people and have an after life where we don't make doughnuts and don't have vote.

[VideoGameJunkie]

What interests me a little is there's a part at the end of my patriarchal blessing talking about after I've come forth in the morning of the first resurrection with power with glory and then goes on to hint that I could be introduced to plural marriage for the Millennium and Celestial world. But that would require me to post more of my patriarchal blessing.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

)I've never heard it said quite like this before. I certainly agree that it is a standard teaching for husband and wife, sealed, can gain exaltation, but are you aware of any place that states "eternal monogamy will lead to exaltation"?

I ask because I think that is what causes a great deal of the angst. A husband and wife may be sealed but there's always this possibility out there that it won't remain monogamous.

You don't think the quotes from Elder Nash's talk provided enough info?

We are taught we are not married after final judgment, I believe.  That the marriage ceremony must be made in mortality, etc. so that we use proxy ceremonies for those who are dead for some reason.  It would seem unlikely that resurrection must wait for all the proxy ordinances to take place given that as far as we know the Saints who were raised at the time of Jesus' death probably wouldn't have been endowed or sealed (though perhaps we just aren't aware of them).  Whatever, it seems all marrying will be done by the end of the Millenium.  

Plus you have the problem unless men and women are all being sealed to multiple partners, requiring men to have plural wives in exaltation at minimum requires 2 women for every man and if more you end up with exaltation being a horde of women with an occasional man.  How would that even work if exalted families are promised all their children will be with them forever, are we really saying that most of our male children won't be married in the CK and unable to have eternal progression?  For those who have sons and daughters, do you see your sons a lesser material than your daughters?  Given the male/female ratio even if one assumes women are more righteous than men (which I don't imo, I believe women are more prone to cultural behaviors we interpret as spiritual but they may have a different cause for many, maybe even most women), we all have access to the Atonement and in the end it will be more about desire and humility and how much we want to be one with God that will lead us to be sanctified and justified by the Lord and therefore prepared to receive the gift of eternal life.

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

What interests me a little is there's a part at the end of my patriarchal blessing talking about after I've come forth in the morning of the first resurrection with power with glory and then goes on to hint that I could be introduced to plural marriage for the Millennium and Celestial world. But that would require me to post more of my patriarchal blessing.

Well...no wonder you have such big questions and searching so hard for answers.  My PB said a part of this too..no mention of plural marriage...but I would come forth to take my place in the Celestial Kingdom of God.  If you believe in your PB...let it be..it will happen...sounds like you are ever ready and ever worthy so enjoy life and see what happens.  It is okay to be happy in this life.

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