JLHPROF Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 16 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Guess what? I always talked to him anyway and I have great conversations with my heavenly mother. I talk to my brothers here on earth and whthen I need my big brother in the heavens, I talk to him too. Gees..this is just so fundamental! Kind of agree with you. I think there is no harm in talking to ANYONE on the other side. But prayer, especially prayer containing requests for intervention in our lives I think should be reserved for the Father. It is he who gives the blessings, cursings, and directions for our lives. Any prayer to the Savior or Heavenly Mother I think is more appropriately a prayer of request for mediation to the Father. Kind of like asking the first counselor to make your case to the Bishop. 4
Jeanne Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 33 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Kind of agree with you. I think there is no harm in talking to ANYONE on the other side. But prayer, especially prayer containing requests for intervention in our lives I think should be reserved for the Father. It is he who gives the blessings, cursings, and directions for our lives. Any prayer to the Savior or Heavenly Mother I think is more appropriately a prayer of request for mediation to the Father. Kind of like asking the first counselor to make your case to the Bishop. Each one of us have our own take on this. I a glad you kind of agree with me. Sometimes there is a spirit about it..our own connection. This does not mean i forget the Father..and I believe he knows my heart and my thoughts Thank you.
JAHS Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 59 minutes ago, stemelbow said: It's ok for everyone else to pray to Jesus except us? That sucks. Why can't we do as those from the scriptures have done? A couple of instances where people talked to Jesus: Alma: "And it came to pass that as I was thus racked with torment, while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold, I remembered also to have heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world. Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death." (Alma 36:17-18) Stephen 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast [him] out of the city, and stoned [him]: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (Acts 7: 55-60) I wouldn't call these typical prayers, but I don't think it is really a sin to talk to Jesus, if one feels so inclined; it's just that we have been taught by Jesus Himself that we should pray to our Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ. The entire Godhead is involved in the answers to our prayers in some way any way.
snowflake Posted June 21, 2016 Author Posted June 21, 2016 On 6/13/2016 at 1:54 PM, thesometimesaint said: 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: It's ok for everyone else to pray to Jesus except us? That sucks. Why can't we do as those from the scriptures have done? You can do as those from the scriptures have done. In fact if you don't you are not honoring the father. Why throughout the NT and BOM does Jesus accept worship (like in 3 Nephi 19: 17,18), and not rebuke it? according to John 5. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
RevTestament Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 "Made in the likeness of men" Sure sounds like "created " to me. Maybe that creed should be amended. BTW I don't believe my spirit was created either. In that sense I am like Jesus.
snowflake Posted June 21, 2016 Author Posted June 21, 2016 Quote In John 5 22-23. Notice that we have God the Father and God the Son. The Son, judges the world, so that everyone will honor the Son the same way they honor the Father. One of the ways we honor the Father is through worship. Jesus says we have to honor the Son in the same way. If we are not worshiping the Son, we are not worshiping the Father. 1
Guest Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 6 hours ago, snowflake said: 31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt? 32 And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased. 33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God. Here In Matthew 14, we have another example of the apostles worshipping Jesus. In reading the B.O.M. and the N.T. the apostles most certainly had a close personal relationship with Jesus, to the point that they were Martyred for him and his message. I don't think they got Mr.McConkey's memo. Of course they had a close personal relationship with Jesus. In Mosiah 5:7, we become his sons and his daughters because he hath Spiritually begotten us. We are the sons and daughters of God the Father when formed, we become the sons and daughters of Christ when reborn, or reformed. What is the point you are trying to make apart from this?
Vance Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 How is the worship of God, the Eternal Father, different from the worship of the Son, Jesus Christ?
snowflake Posted June 22, 2016 Author Posted June 22, 2016 12 hours ago, Pa Pa said: Of course they had a close personal relationship with Jesus. In Mosiah 5:7, we become his sons and his daughters because he hath Spiritually begotten us. We are the sons and daughters of God the Father when formed, we become the sons and daughters of Christ when reborn, or reformed. What is the point you are trying to make apart from this? McConkey indicates that we are not to have a close personal relationship with Jesus, or not to worship him. I disagree with McConkey, an intimate personal relationship with Jesus is what the apostles had and what we can have as well. Colossians 2:9 tells us that For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form. And it is OK to worship and pray to Jesus.
snowflake Posted June 22, 2016 Author Posted June 22, 2016 11 hours ago, Vance said: How is the worship of God, the Eternal Father, different from the worship of the Son, Jesus Christ? Well, what I've been told so far on this thread is that we are not to pray directly to Jesus, that is one way. McConkey has told us that we are not to have a personal relationship with Jesus either. Most evangelicals pray to Jesus, sing songs to him, tell him that they love him, speak with him daily, He is God become flesh so he is truly worthy of all praise and adoration, completely worthy of worship equal with worship of the Father. I would say that I love Jesus, and to love someone you must have an intimate and close relationship with them.
MiserereNobis Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 18 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Any prayer to the Savior or Heavenly Mother I think is more appropriately a prayer of request for mediation to the Father. Kind of like asking the first counselor to make your case to the Bishop. This is rather Catholic of you It's the intercession of the saints and one of the major roles of Mary. 2
Guest Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 1 hour ago, snowflake said: McConkey indicates that we are not to have a close personal relationship with Jesus, or not to worship him. I disagree with McConkey, an intimate personal relationship with Jesus is what the apostles had and what we can have as well. Colossians 2:9 tells us that For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form. And it is OK to worship and pray to Jesus. I think McConkie, was speaking to the idea of prayer not worship. When we pray as Christ taught us to pray we worship and pray correctly. When we address him directly, instead of he who me Jesus Christ came to glorify, we dishonor both. A number of Christ's Apostles did, but they knew him personally, something a little different. Many who,profess a "close,personal relationship" (never understood that term) pray unto Christ and believe him to be the Father in every sense of the word. Doing this not only dis honors but also disregards entirely God the Father...Elohiem.
snowflake Posted June 22, 2016 Author Posted June 22, 2016 1 hour ago, Pa Pa said: I think McConkie, was speaking to the idea of prayer not worship. When we pray as Christ taught us to pray we worship and pray correctly. When we address him directly, instead of he who me Jesus Christ came to glorify, we dishonor both. A number of Christ's Apostles did, but they knew him personally, something a little different. Many who,profess a "close,personal relationship" (never understood that term) pray unto Christ and believe him to be the Father in every sense of the word. Doing this not only dis honors but also disregards entirely God the Father...Elohiem. I disagree, In 3 Nephi 19, Christ does not correct the apostles for "dishonoring and disregarding God the father". He accepts the worship and prayer, you are not basing your assumption on the standard works. My LDS friends always refer to Jesus as "the Savior", like he is distant, far off and alienated. They seem to understand what he has done but they never sing of him, adore him, or worship him. PaPa, respectfully, I don't think you understand the term because you haven't invited him into your life as LORD and King. When you speak to a true believing Christian, Jesus becomes the most important thing in their life, He becomes more important than spouse and children. Clearly this is not the case with you.....again this does not come as a personal attack, just an observation. Respectfully and with love, Snowflake.
bluebell Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 54 minutes ago, snowflake said: I disagree, In 3 Nephi 19, Christ does not correct the apostles for "dishonoring and disregarding God the father". He accepts the worship and prayer, you are not basing your assumption on the standard works. My LDS friends always refer to Jesus as "the Savior", like he is distant, far off and alienated. They seem to understand what he has done but they never sing of him, adore him, or worship him. PaPa, respectfully, I don't think you understand the term because you haven't invited him into your life as LORD and King. When you speak to a true believing Christian, Jesus becomes the most important thing in their life, He becomes more important than spouse and children. Clearly this is not the case with you.....again this does not come as a personal attack, just an observation. Respectfully and with love, Snowflake. If your LDS friend goes to church every week, then he sings about Jesus every single week. I don't think you know as much about how LDS view the Savior as you think you do. 2
Guest Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 57 minutes ago, snowflake said: I disagree, In 3 Nephi 19, Christ does not correct the apostles for "dishonoring and disregarding God the father". He accepts the worship and prayer, you are not basing your assumption on the standard works. My LDS friends always refer to Jesus as "the Savior", like he is distant, far off and alienated. They seem to understand what he has done but they never sing of him, adore him, or worship him. PaPa, respectfully, I don't think you understand the term because you haven't invited him into your life as LORD and King. When you speak to a true believing Christian, Jesus becomes the most important thing in their life, He becomes more important than spouse and children. Clearly this is not the case with you.....again this does not come as a personal attack, just an observation. Respectfully and with love, Snowflake. Maybe a re-read would help, I conceded that point to you and to scripture.
Guest Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 2 minutes ago, bluebell said: If your LDS friend goes to church every week, then he sings about Jesus every single week. I don't think you know as much about how LDS view the Savior as you think you do. Also as Joseph pointed out the hymns of Zion are prayers unto God. We pray weekly per him more to Jesus Christ than the Father. We verbally pray to the Father always in the name of Jesus Christ.
thesometimesaint Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 On 6/21/2016 at 4:52 AM, snowflake said: There are several places in the New Testament where the apostles, children and women all "worship" Jesus. He is worshiped before the resurrection and after. My question is, is it appropriate for faithful LDS members to "worship" Jesus? Example: Matthew 28: 7-9 7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you. 8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word. 9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. I don't. I worship God the Father, through God the Son, by the power of God the Holy Ghost. Others may do as they wish. 1
snowflake Posted June 23, 2016 Author Posted June 23, 2016 18 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: I don't. I worship God the Father, through God the Son, by the power of God the Holy Ghost. Others may do as they wish. Would you "give glory to Jesus" as the multitudes and apostles do in 3 Nephi 20? 7 But he truly gave unto them bread to eat, and also wine to drink. 8 And he said unto them: He that eateth this bread eateth of my body to his soul; and he that drinketh of this wine drinketh of my blood to his soul; and his soul shall never hunger nor thirst, but shall be filled. 9 Now, when the multitude had all eaten and drunk, behold, they were filled with the Spirit; and they did cry out with one voice, and gave glory to Jesus, whom they both saw and heard. 10 And it came to pass that when they had all given glory unto Jesus, he said unto them: Behold now I finish the commandment which the Father hath commanded me concerning this people, who are a remnant of the house of Israel.
Guest Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 56 minutes ago, snowflake said: Would you "give glory to Jesus" as the multitudes and apostles do in 3 Nephi 20? 7 But he truly gave unto them bread to eat, and also wine to drink. 8 And he said unto them: He that eateth this bread eateth of my body to his soul; and he that drinketh of this wine drinketh of my blood to his soul; and his soul shall never hunger nor thirst, but shall be filled. 9 Now, when the multitude had all eaten and drunk, behold, they were filled with the Spirit; and they did cry out with one voice, and gave glory to Jesus, whom they both saw and heard. 10 And it came to pass that when they had all given glory unto Jesus, he said unto them: Behold now I finish the commandment which the Father hath commanded me concerning this people, who are a remnant of the house of Israel. You just keep marching without reading or listening. Why do you seem so hung up on these scriptures? Do you wish a true dialog?
Popular Post jkwilliams Posted June 23, 2016 Popular Post Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) 20 hours ago, snowflake said: I disagree, In 3 Nephi 19, Christ does not correct the apostles for "dishonoring and disregarding God the father". He accepts the worship and prayer, you are not basing your assumption on the standard works. My LDS friends always refer to Jesus as "the Savior", like he is distant, far off and alienated. They seem to understand what he has done but they never sing of him, adore him, or worship him. PaPa, respectfully, I don't think you understand the term because you haven't invited him into your life as LORD and King. When you speak to a true believing Christian, Jesus becomes the most important thing in their life, He becomes more important than spouse and children. Clearly this is not the case with you.....again this does not come as a personal attack, just an observation. Respectfully and with love, Snowflake. You must not know many Mormons, as this is just plain wrong. To quote Nephi, "And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins" (2 Nephi 25:26). From a young age we were taught to worship Jesus in word, deed, and song. I remember being a young boy moved to tears when my older brother sang solo in sacrament meeting, "I Wonder When He Comes Again." One of my earliest memories, from when I was about 5 or 6 years old was walking outside the Westchester California stake center as the choir rehearsed "I Know that My Redeemer Lives," I felt something deep inside, and I just knew. We sang, "Oh, it is wonderful that He should care for me enough to die for me!" at my baptism, and it still stirs love and gratitude for the Savior (who knew that referring to Him as the Savior reflects distance and alienation?). Does this sound distant, far off, or alienated? 1. I believe in Christ; he is my King! With all my heart to him I'll sing; I'll raise my voice in praise and joy, In grand amens my tongue employ. I believe in Christ; he is God's Son. On earth to dwell his soul did come. He healed the sick; the dead he raised. Good works were his; his name be praised. 2. I believe in Christ; oh blessed name! As Mary's Son he came to reign 'Mid mortal men, his earthly kin, To save them from the woes of sin. I believe in Christ, who marked the path, Who did gain all his Father hath, Who said to men: "Come, follow me, That ye, my friends, with God may be." 3. I believe in Christ--my Lord, my God! My feet he plants on gospel sod. I'll worship him with all my might; He is the source of truth and light. I believe in Christ; he ransoms me. From Satan's grasp he sets me free, And I shall live with joy and love In his eternal courts above. 4. I believe in Christ; he stands supreme! From him I'll gain my fondest dream; And while I strive through grief and pain, His voice is heard: "Ye shall obtain." I believe in Christ; so come what may, With him I'll stand in that great day When on this earth he comes again To rule among the sons of men. I think perhaps you just see what you want to see. I may not be an active Mormon anymore, but I categorically reject your characterization of LDS church members as not loving and worshiping Jesus. You should be ashamed of yourself. Edited June 23, 2016 by jkwilliams 6
jkwilliams Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 20 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: I don't. I worship God the Father, through God the Son, by the power of God the Holy Ghost. Others may do as they wish. Maybe Elder McConkie was off the rails when he wrote of Christ, "I'll worship Him with all my might." As I understood it, we don't pray to Jesus but to the Father. But we certainly are supposed to worship Jesus. I honestly don't know where the idea comes from that we aren't supposed to worship the Savior, as that runs counter to everything I have ever been taught in the church. 1
boblloyd91 Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 21 hours ago, snowflake said: I disagree, In 3 Nephi 19, Christ does not correct the apostles for "dishonoring and disregarding God the father". He accepts the worship and prayer, you are not basing your assumption on the standard works. My LDS friends always refer to Jesus as "the Savior", like he is distant, far off and alienated. They seem to understand what he has done but they never sing of him, adore him, or worship him. PaPa, respectfully, I don't think you understand the term because you haven't invited him into your life as LORD and King. When you speak to a true believing Christian, Jesus becomes the most important thing in their life, He becomes more important than spouse and children. Clearly this is not the case with you.....again this does not come as a personal attack, just an observation. Respectfully and with love, Snowflake. Ah yes the trademarked "true Christian" where someone who doesn't believe as you do therefore doesn't love Jesus. Then you have the audacity to say that insult "respectfully and with love". Having been around LDS my entire life and being LDS myself I'm going to to tell you right now you are bearing false witness. I have heard countless testimonies of LDS people who trust and believe Jesus with their whole being. Of course knowing your past statements you probably think they were deceived, are demon possessed and therefore going to hell. You ought to be ashamed of yourself for your lies and hatred. 3
snowflake Posted June 23, 2016 Author Posted June 23, 2016 1 hour ago, jkwilliams said: You must not know many Mormons, as this is just plain wrong. To quote Nephi, "And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins" (2 Nephi 25:26). From a young age we were taught to worship Jesus in word, deed, and song. I remember being a young boy moved to tears when my older brother sang solo in sacrament meeting, "I Wonder When He Comes Again." One of my earliest memories, from when I was about 5 or 6 years old was walking outside the Westchester California stake center as the choir rehearsed "I Know that My Redeemer Lives," I felt something deep inside, and I just knew. We sang, "Oh, it is wonderful that He should care for me enough to die for me!" at my baptism, and it still stirs love and gratitude for the Savior (who knew that referring to Him as the Savior reflects distance and alienation?). Does this sound distant, far off, or alienated? 1. I believe in Christ; he is my King! With all my heart to him I'll sing; I'll raise my voice in praise and joy, In grand amens my tongue employ. I believe in Christ; he is God's Son. On earth to dwell his soul did come. He healed the sick; the dead he raised. Good works were his; his name be praised. 2. I believe in Christ; oh blessed name! As Mary's Son he came to reign 'Mid mortal men, his earthly kin, To save them from the woes of sin. I believe in Christ, who marked the path, Who did gain all his Father hath, Who said to men: "Come, follow me, That ye, my friends, with God may be." 3. I believe in Christ--my Lord, my God! My feet he plants on gospel sod. I'll worship him with all my might; He is the source of truth and light. I believe in Christ; he ransoms me. From Satan's grasp he sets me free, And I shall live with joy and love In his eternal courts above. 4. I believe in Christ; he stands supreme! From him I'll gain my fondest dream; And while I strive through grief and pain, His voice is heard: "Ye shall obtain." I believe in Christ; so come what may, With him I'll stand in that great day When on this earth he comes again To rule among the sons of men. I think perhaps you just see what you want to see. I may not be an active Mormon anymore, but I categorically reject your characterization of LDS church members as not loving and worshiping Jesus. You should be ashamed of yourself. Maybe I am just seeing what I want to see, obviously the hymn above is clear worship of the Savior. However, when I read the paper written by Mr.McConkey about not worshipping Jesus.....and I guess I just don't see how they can agree with each other. I guess I don't have the mental gymnastics required to understand how to worship Jesus but not to have a close personal relationship with him as warned about by Mr.McConkey. I know that sometimes as well we use the same language but our definitions and meanings are different, this is very common with LDS/ev dialogue. PaPa has told me that by "When we address him directly, instead of he who me Jesus Christ came to glorify, we dishonor both. A number of Christ's Apostles did, but they knew him personally, something a little different." I would understand your concern if Jesus isn't actually God..it would be considered idol worship, .but Jesus is God. Mosiah 15 clearly states this. 2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son— 3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son— 4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. In my opinion the LDS put Jesus on a different level with God, like he is God's spiritual offspring...like he is the literal creation by God, thus not equal with the Father and not worthy of praying to.
snowflake Posted June 23, 2016 Author Posted June 23, 2016 3 hours ago, boblloyd91 said: Ah yes the trademarked "true Christian" where someone who doesn't believe as you do therefore doesn't love Jesus. Then you have the audacity to say that insult "respectfully and with love". Having been around LDS my entire life and being LDS myself I'm going to to tell you right now you are bearing false witness. I have heard countless testimonies of LDS people who trust and believe Jesus with their whole being. Of course knowing your past statements you probably think they were deceived, are demon possessed and therefore going to hell. You ought to be ashamed of yourself for your lies and hatred. Ouch,.... that is not very nice. What have I lied about?
Tacenda Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 On 6/21/2016 at 2:01 PM, Jeanne said: Each one of us have our own take on this. I a glad you kind of agree with me. Sometimes there is a spirit about it..our own connection. This does not mean i forget the Father..and I believe he knows my heart and my thoughts Thank you. Do you know how lucky you are to still have a connection with a Father/God in your situation? A lot of ex LDS members find it difficult to believe in anything when their Mormon belief goes.
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