thesometimesaint Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 If you love me keep my commandments. Parable of the sheep and the goats.
thesometimesaint Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 (edited) Snowflake: I too have a hard time believing you were ever a member of the Church. You sound exactly like any number of evangelical critics pretending to know what they neither possess or have a desire to know. Edited June 29, 2016 by thesometimesaint 1
Kenngo1969 Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 This thread brought to mind an article written for First Things by Stephen Webb during the heat of the 2012 presidential campaign (and that makes me want to post a Mitt Romney "Miss Me Yet?" meme): http://www.firstthings.com/article/2012/02/mormonism-obsessed-with-christ Snowflake: "So? Just because someone says Mormonism is obsessed with Christ doesn't mean Mormons worship Him!" 2
Kenngo1969 Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 (edited) 12 hours ago, snowflake said: I don't know of a specific scripture that says "and it came to pass that Jesus said if you don't pray directly to me you cannot have an acceptable relationship with me". ... You know, smiley-smiley emoticons aside, it's really hard to not question your motives (afer all, you just feel such luuuuuuuuurve fer us Marmins) when you can't resist throwing in an "and it came to pass" dig at something we consider to be holy writ. Just sayin'! Edited June 29, 2016 by Kenngo1969
snowflake Posted June 29, 2016 Author Posted June 29, 2016 9 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: Snowflake: I too have a hard time believing you were ever a member of the Church. You sound exactly like any number of evangelical critics pretending to know what they neither possess or have a desire to know. Yes it's true I was a member of the LDS church, I'm sure most of you are out there thinking I must have had some egregious sin, or been offended by someone to leave the church. I mean, that is the only way anyone could ever leave the one true church of Christ, right?
bluebell Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 10 minutes ago, snowflake said: Yes it's true I was a member of the LDS church, I'm sure most of you are out there thinking I must have had some egregious sin, or been offended by someone to leave the church. I mean, that is the only way anyone could ever leave the one true church of Christ, right? Maybe you should just stop making assumptions all together. They are never correct. People leave the church for all sorts of reasons. I have trouble believing that you were an active member of the church for 20 years because you keep getting basic things about being LDS wrong. For example, you stated that your friend never sings of Jesus at church. Anyone who was a member for 20 years (and attended church) would know that singing at least one song about Jesus is mandatory for LDS sacrament meetings. That's a really really odd thing for an ex-mormon not to know. I can't figure out how it would even be possible to go to church for 20 years and not know that. Can you clarify? Are you counting you church membership years from birth to age 20 but you never actually went much? I'm trying to figure this out... 4
snowflake Posted June 29, 2016 Author Posted June 29, 2016 12 hours ago, Avatar4321 said: And once again ignoring what I'm saying and provincial my point that you have no clue what you are talking about. I worship Jesus by serving Him and keeping His commandments. After all that's how He told us to get to know Him. How does a man know a master he never serves? He can't. One way we serve Him is by praying as He instructed. To the Father in His name. Come to church on Sunday for testimony meeting. You will obviously be shocked how much we talk of Christ and prophecy of Christ in those meetings. Ok, first of all I've been to many testimony meetings, what did I miss, I sat there, I know the drill, I know the LDS testimony by heart. Second, I've never said that praying to the father in Jesus' name was wrong or incorrect. Thirdly, how did you do last week when you promised to keep his commandments? I agree that we should do our best to follow his word, but did you keep your promise and keep all his commandments, or did you screw up?
Popular Post jkwilliams Posted June 29, 2016 Popular Post Posted June 29, 2016 1 minute ago, snowflake said: Ok, first of all I've been to many testimony meetings, what did I miss, I sat there, I know the drill, I know the LDS testimony by heart. Second, I've never said that praying to the father in Jesus' name was wrong or incorrect. Thirdly, how did you do last week when you promised to keep his commandments? I agree that we should do our best to follow his word, but did you keep your promise and keep all his commandments, or did you screw up? Are you suggesting now that Mormons don't believe in repentance? The sacrament is a weekly renewal of the baptismal covenant, by which one is cleansed of their sins by the atonement (hence the body and blood imagery). I know I shouldn't care about this stuff as an apostate, but I have always bristled at "Christians" who dare to criticize others for doing their Christianity "wrong." Get a life, worship your Savior, and do good--grousing about what other people are doing wrong is silly and more than a bit arrogant. 5
stemelbow Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 7 minutes ago, snowflake said: Ok, first of all I've been to many testimony meetings, what did I miss, I sat there, I know the drill, I know the LDS testimony by heart. Second, I've never said that praying to the father in Jesus' name was wrong or incorrect. Thirdly, how did you do last week when you promised to keep his commandments? I agree that we should do our best to follow his word, but did you keep your promise and keep all his commandments, or did you screw up? I will say, it's good to see someone convert to evangelicalism from Mormonism when that person who so converts never seemed to get what being a Mormon was about. It makes ya feel a little bit of, "ahah....no wonder..." Maybe you'll realize the weakness of your own position and come back. Or maybe not. Either way, I'm sure there's plenty for you in Evangelicalism just as there is for millions of people. 3
thesometimesaint Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 1 hour ago, snowflake said: Yes it's true I was a member of the LDS church, I'm sure most of you are out there thinking I must have had some egregious sin, or been offended by someone to leave the church. I mean, that is the only way anyone could ever leave the one true church of Christ, right? I've said nothing about any sin of yours, or being offended by anyone in the Church. That is between you and your God. Again I don't believe you were ever a member of the Church by what you post about the Church.
snowflake Posted June 29, 2016 Author Posted June 29, 2016 13 minutes ago, bluebell said: Maybe you should just stop making assumptions all together. They are never correct. People leave the church for all sorts of reasons. I have trouble believing that you were an active member of the church for 20 years because you keep getting basic things about being LDS wrong. For example, you stated that your friend never sings of Jesus at church. Anyone who was a member for 20 years (and attended church) would know that singing at least one song about Jesus is mandatory for LDS sacrament meetings. That's a really really odd thing for an ex-mormon not to know. I can't figure out how it would even be possible to go to church for 20 years and not know that. Can you clarify? Are you counting you church membership years from birth to age 20 but you never actually went much? I'm trying to figure this out... Well I went to church for all those years and was taught that Joseph never practiced polygamy or polyandry either, guess that slipped under the radar? When I finally brought this up to church leadership I was told that those were anti-mormon lies. The truth is that we all have different experiences in the church. I felt loved and respected at church the majority of the time I attended. Does my church attendance matter in this discussion?
jkwilliams Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 1 minute ago, thesometimesaint said: I've said nothing about any sin of yours, or being offended by anyone in the Church. That is between you and your God. Again I don't believe you were ever a member of the Church by what you post about the Church. Well, if he says he was a member for 20 years, that may mean that he drifted into inactivity as a teen before obtaining a good grasp on doctrine and practice in the church. I shouldn't have expressed doubt, as I have to take his word for it. I just find his lack of knowledge a little strange and his criticism a bit wrong-headed.
bluebell Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 4 minutes ago, snowflake said: Well I went to church for all those years and was taught that Joseph never practiced polygamy or polyandry either, guess that slipped under the radar? When I finally brought this up to church leadership I was told that those were anti-mormon lies. The truth is that we all have different experiences in the church. I felt loved and respected at church the majority of the time I attended. Does my church attendance matter in this discussion? I agree we all have different experiences at church, but we're not talking about historical issues (which are not always taught in church, though i was taught about JS's wives in seminary), we're talking about basic lds doctrines and practices which ARE taught and done in church regularly, if not every Sunday. And you were the one who brought up being a member of the church so i'm assuming you believed it was relevant to the discussion. 2
Gray Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 On 6/21/2016 at 6:52 AM, snowflake said: There are several places in the New Testament where the apostles, children and women all "worship" Jesus. He is worshiped before the resurrection and after. My question is, is it appropriate for faithful LDS members to "worship" Jesus? Example: Matthew 28: 7-9 7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you. 8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word. 9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. As I understand it, in the original Greek the word used here (proskuneo) can be rendered to mean that they simply bowed to him, as one would act towards a king.
jkwilliams Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 1 minute ago, Gray said: As I understand it, in the original Greek the word used here (proskuneo) can be rendered to mean that they simply bowed to him, as one would act towards a king. Either way, worshiping Christ is not only acceptable but commanded in the LDS church. 3
Gray Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 10 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Either way, worshiping Christ is not only acceptable but commanded in the LDS church. Yes, of course.
Avatar4321 Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 29 minutes ago, snowflake said: Well I went to church for all those years and was taught that Joseph never practiced polygamy or polyandry either, guess that slipped under the radar? When I finally brought this up to church leadership I was told that those were anti-mormon lies. The truth is that we all have different experiences in the church. I felt loved and respected at church the majority of the time I attended. Does my church attendance matter in this discussion? Yeah, you are just making yourself more unbelievable. Did you ever actually bother reading the scriptures? Btw you brought up your church attendance. You did so as a rebuttal to us pointing out that you have no clue what you are talking about. So clearly you thought it was a matter. 1
Tacenda Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 (edited) 44 minutes ago, bluebell said: I agree we all have different experiences at church, but we're not talking about historical issues (which are not always taught in church, though i was taught about JS's wives in seminary), we're talking about basic lds doctrines and practices which ARE taught and done in church regularly, if not every Sunday. And you were the one who brought up being a member of the church so i'm assuming you believed it was relevant to the discussion. Sorry to veer off the subject here, but were you taught exactly how JS lived polygamy, or just that he was a polygamist? Edited June 29, 2016 by Tacenda
snowflake Posted June 29, 2016 Author Posted June 29, 2016 1 hour ago, jkwilliams said: Are you suggesting now that Mormons don't believe in repentance? The sacrament is a weekly renewal of the baptismal covenant, by which one is cleansed of their sins by the atonement (hence the body and blood imagery). I know I shouldn't care about this stuff as an apostate, but I have always bristled at "Christians" who dare to criticize others for doing their Christianity "wrong." Get a life, worship your Savior, and do good--grousing about what other people are doing wrong is silly and more than a bit arrogant. I know the LDS believe in repentance. I'm sorry, but the LDS church sends out thousands of missionaries all over the world that claim exactly that, all Christianity is wrong except the 2016 Salt lake version of LDS. Now I agree that they have toned down the language in the last 10 years but when I was younger the church was very critical of the creeds, pastors and particularly the Catholic church as "the church of Satan". So please don't tell me the LDS don't criticize or attack other Christian religions when that has not been the case since the 1840's.
jkwilliams Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 2 minutes ago, snowflake said: I know the LDS believe in repentance. I'm sorry, but the LDS church sends out thousands of missionaries all over the world that claim exactly that, all Christianity is wrong except the 2016 Salt lake version of LDS. Now I agree that they have toned down the language in the last 10 years but when I was younger the church was very critical of the creeds, pastors and particularly the Catholic church as "the church of Satan". So please don't tell me the LDS don't criticize or attack other Christian religions when that has not been the case since the 1840's. I don't recall ever telling someone they were doing Christianity wrong when I was on my mission. Even if I had done that, I would never have presumed to opine on someone else's relationship with God. That's what you are doing here, and even a filthy apostate like me finds it annoying, which is highly ironic. I don't have a problem with people debating doctrines and such, as that happens all the time, but don't pretend you understand people's personal relationships with the divine. 3
thesometimesaint Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 1 hour ago, jkwilliams said: Well, if he says he was a member for 20 years, that may mean that he drifted into inactivity as a teen before obtaining a good grasp on doctrine and practice in the church. I shouldn't have expressed doubt, as I have to take his word for it. I just find his lack of knowledge a little strange and his criticism a bit wrong-headed. I'm not surprised by what people don't know. It is when they broadcast that ignorance that surprises me. Sometimes it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt, 1
stemelbow Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 9 minutes ago, snowflake said: I know the LDS believe in repentance. I'm sorry, but the LDS church sends out thousands of missionaries all over the world that claim exactly that, all Christianity is wrong except the 2016 Salt lake version of LDS. Now I agree that they have toned down the language in the last 10 years but when I was younger the church was very critical of the creeds, pastors and particularly the Catholic church as "the church of Satan". So please don't tell me the LDS don't criticize or attack other Christian religions when that has not been the case since the 1840's. Just a bit of an observation. It feels like part of the problem in this discussion is your misreading. I don't think JkWilliams said anything about whether the LDS Church or its members criticize other religions. When member of the Church or the Church itself offer unfair criticisms of other religion, I get pretty annoyed though. Kind of like you might. I think some are finding your criticisms of the LDS Church and it's members at least a little unfair.
Tacenda Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 1 minute ago, jkwilliams said: I don't recall ever telling someone they were doing Christianity wrong when I was on my mission. Even if I had done that, I would never have presumed to opine on someone else's relationship with God. That's what you are doing here, and even a filthy apostate like me finds it annoying, which is highly ironic. I don't have a problem with people debating doctrines and such, as that happens all the time, but don't pretend you understand people's personal relationships with the divine. I'm totally envious of members or non members, that have this relationship with the Divine.
thesometimesaint Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 9 minutes ago, snowflake said: I know the LDS believe in repentance. I'm sorry, but the LDS church sends out thousands of missionaries all over the world that claim exactly that, all Christianity is wrong except the 2016 Salt lake version of LDS. Now I agree that they have toned down the language in the last 10 years but when I was younger the church was very critical of the creeds, pastors and particularly the Catholic church as "the church of Satan". So please don't tell me the LDS don't criticize or attack other Christian religions when that has not been the case since the 1840's. The Church never claimed claim all Christianity is wrong, except the 2016 Salt lake version of LDS.
Tacenda Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 2 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: The Church never claimed claim all Christianity is wrong, except the 2016 Salt lake version of LDS. ? (I'm slow today)
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