snowflake Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 There are several places in the New Testament where the apostles, children and women all "worship" Jesus. He is worshiped before the resurrection and after. My question is, is it appropriate for faithful LDS members to "worship" Jesus? Example: Matthew 28: 7-9 7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you. 8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word. 9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
Bobbieaware Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) 28 minutes ago, snowflake said: There are several places in the New Testament where the apostles, children and women all "worship" Jesus. He is worshiped before the resurrection and after. My question is, is it appropriate for faithful LDS members to "worship" Jesus? Example: Matthew 28: 7-9 7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you. 8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word. 9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. 29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, AND WORSHIP HIM with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out. (2 Nephi 25) ... and a second witness from the Book of Mormom: 17 (they all shouted) Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, AND DID WORSHIP HIM. (3 Nephi 11) Edited June 21, 2016 by Bobbieaware 4
RBoylan Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 I rarely post here, but I do have a few posts addressing the issue of "worship" and other topics; for instance: "Joseph Smith Worship?" http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2016/01/joseph-smith-worship-responding-to.html (there is a discussion of the nature of "worship" in 1 Chron 29:20 and other pertinent texts) "Is Jesus given λατρευω?" (URL: http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2014/08/is-jesus-given.html A good book on the issue would be James D.G. Dunn, Did the early Christians Worship Jesus? (2010). Just fwiw. 4
Avatar4321 Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 I think the verses in the Book of Mormon cited already answer the question. I would invite you to read the Book of Mormon for yourself. That way you can investigate an learn for yourself
rchorse Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 Yes, we worship Jesus. The only caveat to that is that we don't pray directly to Jesus. Rather, we pray to our Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus. 3
JLHPROF Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 Depends on your definition of worship. Of course Mormons worship Jesus. He is a member of the Godhead after all not to mention our personal Savior.
snowflake Posted June 21, 2016 Author Posted June 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said: 29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, AND WORSHIP HIM with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out. (2 Nephi 25) ... and a second witness from the Book of Mormom: 17 (they all shouted) Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, AND DID WORSHIP HIM. (3 Nephi 11) Am I to assume that worshiping Jesus with all of my might, mind and strength, my whole soul..........but no prayer? Bow down, the holy one of Israel,........but don't pray to him....just worship?
snowflake Posted June 21, 2016 Author Posted June 21, 2016 14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Depends on your definition of worship. Of course Mormons worship Jesus. He is a member of the Godhead after all not to mention our personal Savior. Please explain your definition of worship. How do the LDS worship Jesus?
Bobbieaware Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 6 minutes ago, snowflake said: Am I to assume that worshiping Jesus with all of my might, mind and strength, my whole soul..........but no prayer? Bow down, the holy one of Israel,........but don't pray to him....just worship? Sorry to burst your bubble, but according to the Book of Mormon there ARE sacred occasions when It is right for believers to pray directly to Christ... 23 And now Father, I pray unto thee for them, and also for all those who shall believe on their words, that they may believe in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one. 24 And it came to pass that when Jesus had thus prayed unto the Father, he came unto his disciples, and behold, they did still continue, without ceasing, to pray unto him; and they did not multiply many words, for it was given unto them what they should pray, and they were filled with desire. 25 And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him; and his countenance did smile upon them, and the light of his countenance did shine upon them, and behold they were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness, yea, even there could be nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof. (3 Nephi 19)
snowflake Posted June 21, 2016 Author Posted June 21, 2016 11 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: Sorry to burst your bubble, but according to the Book of Mormon there ARE sacred occasions when It is right for believers to pray directly to Christ... 23 And now Father, I pray unto thee for them, and also for all those who shall believe on their words, that they may believe in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one. 24 And it came to pass that when Jesus had thus prayed unto the Father, he came unto his disciples, and behold, they did still continue, without ceasing, to pray unto him; and they did not multiply many words, for it was given unto them what they should pray, and they were filled with desire. 25 And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him; and his countenance did smile upon them, and the light of his countenance did shine upon them, and behold they were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness, yea, even there could be nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof. (3 Nephi 19) No you are not bursting my bubble, thank you for the scripture. So it is OK for me to pray directly to Jesus?
JAHS Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 7 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: Sorry to burst your bubble, but according to the Book of Mormon there ARE sacred occasions when It is right for believers to pray directly to Christ... 23 And now Father, I pray unto thee for them, and also for all those who shall believe on their words, that they may believe in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one. 24 And it came to pass that when Jesus had thus prayed unto the Father, he came unto his disciples, and behold, they did still continue, without ceasing, to pray unto him; and they did not multiply many words, for it was given unto them what they should pray, and they were filled with desire. 25 And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him; and his countenance did smile upon them, and the light of his countenance did shine upon them, and behold they were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness, yea, even there could be nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof. (3 Nephi 19) Here are the scriptures in question: 16 And it came to pass that he spake unto the multitude, and commanded them that they should kneel down again upon the earth, and also that his disciples should kneel down upon the earth. 17 And it came to pass that when they had all knelt down upon the earth, he commanded his disciples that they should pray. 18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God. 19 And it came to pass that Jesus departed out of the midst of them, and went a little way off from them and bowed himself to the earth, and he said: 20 Father, I thank thee that thou hast given the Holy Ghost unto these whom I have chosen; and it is because of their belief in me that I have chosen them out of the world. 21 Father, I pray thee that thou wilt give the Holy Ghost unto all them that shall believe in their words. 22 Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in me; and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them. 23 And now Father, I apray unto thee for them, and also for all those who shall believe on their words, that they may believe in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one. 24 And it came to pass that when Jesus had thus prayed unto the Father, he came unto his disciples, and behold, they did still continue, without ceasing, to pray unto him; and they did not multiply many words, for it was given unto them what they should pray, and they were filled with desire." 25 And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him; and his countenance did smile upon them, and the light of his countenance did shine upon them, and behold they were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness, yea, even there could be nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof.(3 Nephi Chapter 19:16-24) You will notice that Jesus did not tell them to pray to Him, only that they should kneel and pray. It was their own idea to pray to Jesus. To them Jesus is also God and as He explained in His prayer to the Father, "they pray unto me because I am with them"(verse 22). So since He is their "Lord and God" and was right there with them, they assumed that they should pray to Him. I think Jesus refrained from correcting them because He probably saw it as a way for the disciples to worship Him. Earlier in verses 7-9 they did pray to the Father, demonstrating that they were aware of the proper way to pray, as they had been taught earlier(3 Ne. 13: 7-9). Normally, we pray to God the Father because this is what Jesus told us to do as He instructed His apostles: "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name." (Matt. 6:9, Luke 11:2) 1
RevTestament Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 43 minutes ago, snowflake said: No you are not bursting my bubble, thank you for the scripture. So it is OK for me to pray directly to Jesus? I would say that depends on what you are praying for. If you are praying for scriptural understanding through the Holy Spirit, I would say that would not be effective since the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. Jesus can bless us directly in several ways - His presence can also bring scriptural understanding. I have heard Christians who say they pray to the Holy Spirit - there is as yet no scriptural precedent for that. Most I have read say they got no results.
bluebell Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 1 hour ago, snowflake said: Am I to assume that worshiping Jesus with all of my might, mind and strength, my whole soul..........but no prayer? Bow down, the holy one of Israel,........but don't pray to him....just worship? We pray to God the Father because that is how Jesus says to pray. 2
JLHPROF Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 2 hours ago, snowflake said: Please explain your definition of worship. How do the LDS worship Jesus? The definition of worship - from the Old English weorþscipe, meaning worship, honour shown to an object, which has been etymologised as "worthiness or worth-ship"—to give, at its simplest, worth to something. We give honor and attribute all worthiness to Christ. We accept him as Lord and acknowledge our nothingness without his sacrifice. That is worship. And that is in spite of what even Christ himself said "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. " 1
snowflake Posted June 21, 2016 Author Posted June 21, 2016 28 minutes ago, bluebell said: We pray to God the Father because that is how Jesus says to pray. The OP states "is it appropriate for LDS to worship Jesus". So in 3 Nephi chapter 19 we have all 12 apostles bowing down, and praying to Jesus calling him Lord and God. 18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God. If you read the entire chapter, the apostles continually pray directly to Jesus. It seems to me like they are "worshiping Jesus".
JAHS Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 Perhaps it is more proper to just say we worship God; meaning both God the Father and Jesus collectively. People may call us polytheists for worshiping both of them; however we do recognize that God the Father is the supreme being of the Godhead, and that is why it is to Him our prayers are directed. We believe that they act together as one God; one in purpose. So in essence when we say we worship God, we are actually worshiping both of them as the scriptures say we should do. (D&C 20:29, 2 Nephi 25:29)
snowflake Posted June 21, 2016 Author Posted June 21, 2016 2 hours ago, JAHS said: Here are the scriptures in question: 16 And it came to pass that he spake unto the multitude, and commanded them that they should kneel down again upon the earth, and also that his disciples should kneel down upon the earth. 17 And it came to pass that when they had all knelt down upon the earth, he commanded his disciples that they should pray. 18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God. 19 And it came to pass that Jesus departed out of the midst of them, and went a little way off from them and bowed himself to the earth, and he said: 20 Father, I thank thee that thou hast given the Holy Ghost unto these whom I have chosen; and it is because of their belief in me that I have chosen them out of the world. 21 Father, I pray thee that thou wilt give the Holy Ghost unto all them that shall believe in their words. 22 Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in me; and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them. 23 And now Father, I apray unto thee for them, and also for all those who shall believe on their words, that they may believe in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one. 24 And it came to pass that when Jesus had thus prayed unto the Father, he came unto his disciples, and behold, they did still continue, without ceasing, to pray unto him; and they did not multiply many words, for it was given unto them what they should pray, and they were filled with desire." 25 And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him; and his countenance did smile upon them, and the light of his countenance did shine upon them, and behold they were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness, yea, even there could be nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof.(3 Nephi Chapter 19:16-24) You will notice that Jesus did not tell them to pray to Him, only that they should kneel and pray. It was their own idea to pray to Jesus. To them Jesus is also God and as He explained in His prayer to the Father, "they pray unto me because I am with them"(verse 22). So since He is their "Lord and God" and was right there with them, they assumed that they should pray to Him. I think Jesus refrained from correcting them because He probably saw it as a way for the disciples to worship Him. Earlier in verses 7-9 they did pray to the Father, demonstrating that they were aware of the proper way to pray, as they had been taught earlier(3 Ne. 13: 7-9). Normally, we pray to God the Father because this is what Jesus told us to do as He instructed His apostles: "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name." (Matt. 6:9, Luke 11:2) I'm confused, we have first century Christians praying to Jesus, worshiping him and calling him God, in the B.O.M. and in the N.T. Maybe they thought he was God?
bluebell Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 23 minutes ago, snowflake said: The OP states "is it appropriate for LDS to worship Jesus". So in 3 Nephi chapter 19 we have all 12 apostles bowing down, and praying to Jesus calling him Lord and God. 18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God. If you read the entire chapter, the apostles continually pray directly to Jesus. It seems to me like they are "worshiping Jesus". Yes they are worshipping Him. I've read the entire Book of Mormon more than a dozen times and these chapters are my favorites. I was addressing your specific question on why LDS don't typically pray to Jesus. 1
RevTestament Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 2 hours ago, snowflake said: No you are not bursting my bubble, thank you for the scripture. So it is OK for me to pray directly to Jesus? I respectfully submit that you do not yet understand understand the Godhead. Until you fully understand the godhead, and to whom you pray, it would be advisable for you to pray to the Father in the name of Joshua as directed in the Bible.
JAHS Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 43 minutes ago, snowflake said: I'm confused, we have first century Christians praying to Jesus, worshiping him and calling him God, in the B.O.M. and in the N.T. Maybe they thought he was God? They didn't think He was God; they knew He was God. All the way back in 2 Nephi 26:12 Nephi said: " And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;" The Father is God and Jesus is God.
consiglieri Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 How much longer can this discussion continue before someone remarks that Elder Bruce R. McConkie, as an apostle of the Lord, declared Latter-day Saints are NOT to worship Jesus. . . ?
JAHS Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 4 minutes ago, consiglieri said: How much longer can this discussion continue before someone remarks that Elder Bruce R. McConkie, as an apostle of the Lord, declared Latter-day Saints are NOT to worship Jesus. . . ? Like you just did? Actually, he didn't say we should not worship Jesus. He said that we should not have a close personal relationship with only Jesus to the point that we forget about God the Father, who should be the main focus of our worship. 4
consiglieri Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 4 minutes ago, JAHS said: Like you just did? Actually, he didn't say we should not worship Jesus. He said that we should not have a close personal relationship with only Jesus to the point that we forget about God the Father, who should be the main focus of our worship. 1. We worship the Father and him only and no one else. We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense—the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator. https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r-mcconkie_relationship-lord/
snowflake Posted June 21, 2016 Author Posted June 21, 2016 26 minutes ago, JAHS said: They didn't think He was God; they knew He was God. All the way back in 2 Nephi 26:12 Nephi said: " And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;" The Father is God and Jesus is God. I don't mean to be getting of topic here, but I was taught that Jesus is the spirit offspring of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.....no? How can Jesus be the Eternal God if he is created? The B.O.M. really sounds like the evangelical view of Jesus on this one.
stemelbow Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 My mind gets boggled considering why we care and get so adamant about such technicalities about who we worship and who we pray to. Worship in some sense can mean having reverence for, Pray can mean appealing to. Who cares what words you put to it, we can pray to Jesus and probably ought to as scripture has numerous examples of such. I can't imagine McConkie being any more wrong about something than he was about not worshipping Jesus--well, ok there are competing examples.
Recommended Posts