Worshiping Jesus.

[Kenngo1969]

On 6/23/2016 at 10:46 AM, snowflake said:

Maybe I am just seeing what I want to see ...

No "maybe" about it.  And that's the key to the whole thread right there.

[jkwilliams]

12 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Avatar, I'm sure you know the Savior very well and you worship him when you take the sacrament.  Do you pray to him? Do you worship him as Lord and King?   My point is that when I observe LDS and their relationship with Jesus they rarely call him Jesus, they seem to recognize him but the relationships always seem distant.  Terms like "the Savior" are always used, "his atonement"...."what he did for us"......In my opinion, because LDS don't pray directly to Jesus, they don't truly have a personal relationship with him. How can you truly worship him without prayer?  

It may be difficult for you to understand how someone could develop a relationship with Jesus while praying to the Father in Jesus' name, but that doesn't mean millions of people can't do just that. I don't know which Mormons you've talked to, but I don't know any who would agree with your belief that they have a "distant" relationship with Him. What exactly is a close relationship supposed to look and sound like? Are people supposed to get weepy and emotional when they mention Jesus (of course, a lot of Mormons and other Christians do this)? Are we supposed to be keeping a count of how many times we use "Savior" instead of "Jesus"? 

It just seems to me that you're projecting something onto Mormons, for whatever reason. I have mentioned before that my wife is quite possibly the most Christian person I know, in that she loves the Savior (for her that's not a mark of distance) and is the most compassionate and selfless person I know. She lives the gospel every day. But I have been told numerous times by self-proclaimed Christians that my wife is going to hell because she worships "the wrong Jesus" (i.e., the Mormon Jesus). Thankfully, you're not saying that, but for some reason you want to lump all Mormons together as not having as personal a relationship with Jesus as they should. Again, how would you know? And what are the signs of an acceptable relationship with Jesus? 

[snowflake]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

It may be difficult for you to understand how someone could develop a relationship with Jesus while praying to the Father in Jesus' name, but that doesn't mean millions of people can't do just that. I don't know which Mormons you've talked to, but I don't know any who would agree with your belief that they have a "distant" relationship with Him. What exactly is a close relationship supposed to look and sound like? Are people supposed to get weepy and emotional when they mention Jesus (of course, a lot of Mormons and other Christians do this)? Are we supposed to be keeping a count of how many times we use "Savior" instead of "Jesus"? 

It just seems to me that you're projecting something onto Mormons, for whatever reason. I have mentioned before that my wife is quite possibly the most Christian person I know, in that she loves the Savior (for her that's not a mark of distance) and is the most compassionate and selfless person I know. She lives the gospel every day. But I have been told numerous times by self-proclaimed Christians that my wife is going to hell because she worships "the wrong Jesus" (i.e., the Mormon Jesus). Thankfully, you're not saying that, but for some reason you want to lump all Mormons together as not having as personal a relationship with Jesus as they should. Again, how would you know? And what are the signs of an acceptable relationship with Jesus? 

Jesus should be the priority of a Christian's life, he trumps spouse, children, parents, job, "church", house, country...everything. He is worthy of praise, worship and prayer.  These are the signs of an acceptable relationship with Jesus. Jesus is Before/above all things.

 

¹⁶ For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

¹⁷ And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, snowflake said:

Jesus should be the priority of a Christian's life, he trumps spouse, children, parents, job, "church", house, country...everything. He is worthy of praise, worship and prayer.  These are the signs of an acceptable relationship with Jesus. Jesus is Before/above all things.

¹⁶ For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

¹⁷ And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

I see. You seem to believe that Mormons place "church" (why the scare quotes") ahead of Jesus. Again, I think you're projecting, though I'm not sure why.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

Jesus should be the priority of a Christian's life, he trumps spouse, children, parents, job, "church", house, country...everything. He is worthy of praise, worship and prayer.  These are the signs of an acceptable relationship with Jesus. Jesus is Before/above all things.

 

Is there some place in the Bible that teaches the 'signs of an acceptable relationship with Jesus' or did you come up with these on your own?

[Jeanne]

3 hours ago, snowflake said:

Jesus should be the priority of a Christian's life, he trumps spouse, children, parents, job, "church", house, country...everything. He is worthy of praise, worship and prayer.  These are the signs of an acceptable relationship with Jesus. Jesus is Before/above all things.

 

¹⁶ For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

¹⁷ And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

I don't even think Jesus would accept this.  Our devotion to all other areas and people in our lives is part of his teachings. 

[Kenngo1969]

5 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

... Are we supposed to be keeping a count of how many times we use "Savior" instead of "Jesus"? 

It just seems to me that you're projecting something onto Mormons, for whatever reason. I have mentioned before that my wife is quite possibly the most Christian person I know, in that she loves the Savior (for her that's not a mark of distance) 

You don't understand, John: Latter-day Saints are going to get beaten up, regardless; it's simply a matter of picking which stick we think will hurt less to be beaten up with.  If we use the term "Savior," that means our relationship with Him is too distant.  (And besides, everybody but Mormons knows that Mormons haven't been "saved" anyway, right?)  And if we say, "Jesus," well, sheesh!  The guy's the Lord of the Universe, for cryin' out loud!  Do we have some sort of a problem recognizing that?  

[snowflake]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Is there some place in the Bible that teaches the 'signs of an acceptable relationship with Jesus' or did you come up with these on your own?

Gospel of Matthew 19:16–30, the Gospel of Mark 10:17–31 and the Gospel of Luke 18:18–30.

[jkwilliams]

7 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

You don't understand, John: Latter-day Saints are going to get beaten up, regardless; it's simply a matter of picking which stick we think will hurt less to be beaten up with.  If we use the term "Savior," that means our relationship with Him is too distant.  (And besides, everybody but Mormons knows that Mormons haven't been "saved" anyway, right?)  And if we say, "Jesus," well, sheesh!  The guy's the Lord of the Universe, for cryin' out loud!  Do we have some sort of a problem recognizing that?  

I readily acknowledge that I don't understand this line of argument from snowflake, but then I often miss things.

[thesometimesaint]

4 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Gospel of Matthew 19:16–30, the Gospel of Mark 10:17–31 and the Gospel of Luke 18:18–30.

Gospel of Matthew 19:16–30, The LDS have dedicated themselvess to following the Commandments, and their time, means, talents, abilities, and everything the Lord has blessed us or will bless us with to building up his kingdom.

See Above

See Above.

 

 

[bluebell]

17 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Gospel of Matthew 19:16–30, the Gospel of Mark 10:17–31 and the Gospel of Luke 18:18–30.

Thank you for those references.  LDS believe the same thing (in fact, we make covenants to do just as those verses teach).  I'm not seeing anything in those verses that says that one must pray to Jesus in order to have an acceptable relationship with Him though.  Does the bible teach that, or is that an extra biblical belief that you personally hold?

[snowflake]

20 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Thank you for those references.  LDS believe the same thing (in fact, we make covenants to do just as those verses teach).  I'm not seeing anything in those verses that says that one must pray to Jesus in order to have an acceptable relationship with Him though.  Does the bible teach that, or is that an extra biblical belief that you personally hold?

I think you entirely misunderstand the parable based on your response. Let me quickly explain.  In this parable, Jesus is after the man's heart. And Jesus reveals that the man is in complete violation of the 1st commandment....no other Gods before me.  The rich man's god, is his stuff, it was his idol, his wealth, this man loved his possessions. So Jesus shows the rich man his error...and instead of giving up his stuff and putting God first, he goes away sad. The man went down the list saying yes, I keep all those commandments, I honor my mother and father, no murder, no stealing.... but not the 1st commandment. Jesus points out that the man had another god.  Jesus asks him to put all of this stuff aside and follow him.  (Make Jesus the most important thing in his life).  God is more important than any possession we can have, and God gives us all of this other stuff anyway!, it's his stuff!  (job, spouse, kids, house etc.) Jesus asks this rich man to give up his god, (money) and follow Him, to put Jesus as the most important thing in his life. This rich man knew that his heart wasn't right.

So when I say Jesus is to be the most important thing in your life, I use this parable as an example. Bluebell, please read the parable again with this in mind.

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, snowflake said:

I think you entirely misunderstand the parable based on your response. Let me quickly explain.  In this parable, Jesus is after the man's heart. And Jesus reveals that the man is in complete violation of the 1st commandment....no other Gods before me.  The rich man's god, is his stuff, it was his idol, his wealth, this man loved his possessions. So Jesus shows the rich man his error...and instead of giving up his stuff and putting God first, he goes away sad. The man went down the list saying yes, I keep all those commandments, I honor my mother and father, no murder, no stealing.... but not the 1st commandment. Jesus points out that the man had another god.  Jesus asks him to put all of this stuff aside and follow him.  (Make Jesus the most important thing in his life).  God is more important than any possession we can have, and God gives us all of this other stuff anyway!, it's his stuff!  (job, spouse, kids, house etc.) Jesus asks this rich man to give up his god, (money) and follow Him, to put Jesus as the most important thing in his life. This rich man knew that his heart wasn't right.

So when I say Jesus is to be the most important thing in your life, I use this parable as an example. Bluebell, please read the parable again with this in mind.

I think most Mormons would say following Christ is the most important thing in their lives. I'm still unclear as to why you think otherwise or feel qualified to judge others' relationships with Christ. 

Again, maybe I'm missing something. 

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, snowflake said:

I think you entirely misunderstand the parable based on your response. Let me quickly explain.  In this parable, Jesus is after the man's heart. And Jesus reveals that the man is in complete violation of the 1st commandment....no other Gods before me.  The rich man's god, is his stuff, it was his idol, his wealth, this man loved his possessions. So Jesus shows the rich man his error...and instead of giving up his stuff and putting God first, he goes away sad. The man went down the list saying yes, I keep all those commandments, I honor my mother and father, no murder, no stealing.... but not the 1st commandment. Jesus points out that the man had another god.  Jesus asks him to put all of this stuff aside and follow him.  (Make Jesus the most important thing in his life).  God is more important than any possession we can have, and God gives us all of this other stuff anyway!, it's his stuff!  (job, spouse, kids, house etc.) Jesus asks this rich man to give up his god, (money) and follow Him, to put Jesus as the most important thing in his life. This rich man knew that his heart wasn't right.

So when I say Jesus is to be the most important thing in your life, I use this parable as an example. Bluebell, please read the parable again with this in mind.

No, i understand the parable.  It's a great one and is discussed often in church.  And it's usually taught the same way you have just described it.  (As an aside, you need to stop assuming that LDS don't know the bible.  We study it two out of every four years in Sunday school (we study the Book of Mormon once every four years).  I've read the entire bible, and the NT in it's entirety many times--though i've only read the OT all the way thru once-it can be tough--and i'm not unique.)

You didn't answer my question though.  Where in the bible does it teach that one must pray to Jesus in order to have an acceptable relationship with Him?

[snowflake]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

No, i understand the parable.  It's a great one and is discussed often in church.  And it's usually taught the same way you have just described it.  (As an aside, you need to stop assuming that LDS don't know the bible.  We study it two out of every four years in Sunday school (we study the Book of Mormon once every four years).  I've read the entire bible, and the NT in it's entirety many times--though i've only read the OT all the way thru once-it can be tough--and i'm not unique.)

You didn't answer my question though.  Where in the bible does it teach that one must pray to Jesus in order to have an acceptable relationship with Him?

Scripture is clear that praying to Jesus is acceptable. We are commanded to pray to Jesus: Jn 14:14; James 1:1-7; 1 Cor 1:2; Eph 5:19; Acts 8:22 We have apostolic examples of praying to Jesus: Rev 22:20, 2 Cor 12:7-9, Acts 7:54-60; Acts 8:24 We have necessary inferences of pray to Jesus: 1 Jn 5:11-15, Acts 1:24; Heb 7:25.

There are also examples in the B.O.M.

[snowflake]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

I think most Mormons would say following Christ is the most important thing in their lives. I'm still unclear as to why you think otherwise or feel qualified to judge others' relationships with Christ. 

Again, maybe I'm missing something. 

Listen to the testimonies at your next testimony meeting and see if Jesus is the most important aspect in the LDS life, I was LDS for almost 20 years and can assure you from experience that he is not.  In fact I never even noticed it until someone pointed it out to me, so take some mental notes and the only mention of Jesus you will hear is an occasional   "Jesus is the Christ"  and at the very end,  "in Jesus' name amen".  No one will praise his name, worship him, or glorify him.

I don't feel qualified to judge others, I am simply making observations.  Ask you LDS friends what is the most important thing to them in their life and you will almost  always get the same answer.

[jkwilliams]

24 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Listen to the testimonies at your next testimony meeting and see if Jesus is the most important aspect in the LDS life, I was LDS for almost 20 years and can assure you from experience that he is not.  In fact I never even noticed it until someone pointed it out to me, so take some mental notes and the only mention of Jesus you will hear is an occasional   "Jesus is the Christ"  and at the very end,  "in Jesus' name amen".  No one will praise his name, worship him, or glorify him.

I don't feel qualified to judge others, I am simply making observations.  Ask you LDS friends what is the most important thing to them in their life and you will almost  always get the same answer.

I haven't been to a testimony meeting in quite a while, but unless things have changed in the last year or so, church meetings have usually been focused on the gospel of Jesus Christ. I have to say I'm skeptical that you were LDS for 20 years, as you seem to have a pretty poor grasp on LDS theology, but I could be wrong. I was active in the church for 40 years, so I'm up on you by 100%.

What you seem to be describing is a personal preference for outward exclamations like "Praise, Jesus!" which is more of a cultural thing in that Mormons tend not to do such things. But the lack of hallelujahs and such does not indicate lack of worship of Christ.

[bluebell]

28 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Scripture is clear that praying to Jesus is acceptable. We are commanded to pray to Jesus: Jn 14:14; James 1:1-7; 1 Cor 1:2; Eph 5:19; Acts 8:22 We have apostolic examples of praying to Jesus: Rev 22:20, 2 Cor 12:7-9, Acts 7:54-60; Acts 8:24 We have necessary inferences of pray to Jesus: 1 Jn 5:11-15, Acts 1:24; Heb 7:25.

There are also examples in the B.O.M.

I think you've misunderstood what i'm asking.  I'm not asking if it's ever o.k. to pray to Jesus or if the scripture shows that anyone ever has.  

I'm asking where in the bible it teaches that if you don't pray to Jesus that means you don't have an acceptable relationship with the Savior.  Where does the bible say that you MUST pray to Jesus (not just God, but Jesus specifically)? You have asserted that specific thing and so you should have some specific references to back up that statement of fact.

 

[snowflake]

25 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think you've misunderstood what i'm asking.  I'm not asking if it's ever o.k. to pray to Jesus or if the scripture shows that anyone ever has.  

I'm asking where in the bible it teaches that if you don't pray to Jesus that means you don't have an acceptable relationship with the Savior.  Where does the bible say that you MUST pray to Jesus (not just God, but Jesus specifically)? You have asserted that specific thing and so you should have some specific references to back up that statement of fact.

 

I don't know of a specific scripture that says "and it came to pass that Jesus said if you don't pray directly to me you cannot have an acceptable relationship with me".    I am saying that praying to him is Biblical, and speaking with him directly on a daily basis will greatly improve your relationship with him, try it!

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, snowflake said:

I don't know of a specific scripture that says "and it came to pass that Jesus said if you don't pray directly to me you cannot have an acceptable relationship with me".    I am saying that praying to him is Biblical, and speaking with him directly on a daily basis will greatly improve your relationship with him, try it!

I'll continue to pray to God the Father, as Jesus taught.

[Avatar4321]

13 hours ago, snowflake said:

Avatar, I'm sure you know the Savior very well and you worship him when you take the sacrament.  Do you pray to him? Do you worship him as Lord and King?   My point is that when I observe LDS and their relationship with Jesus they rarely call him Jesus, they seem to recognize him but the relationships always seem distant.  Terms like "the Savior" are always used, "his atonement"...."what he did for us"......In my opinion, because LDS don't pray directly to Jesus, they don't truly have a personal relationship with him. How can you truly worship him without prayer?  

And once again ignoring what I'm saying and provincial my point that you have no clue what you are talking about.

I worship Jesus by serving Him and keeping His commandments. After all that's how He told us to get to know Him. How does a man know a master he never serves? He can't.

One way we serve Him is by praying as He instructed. To the Father in His name.

Come to church on Sunday for testimony meeting. You will obviously be shocked how much we talk of Christ and prophecy of Christ in those meetings.

[Avatar4321]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'll continue to pray to God the Father, as Jesus taught.

Better to obey than not.

[Avatar4321]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think you've misunderstood what i'm asking.  I'm not asking if it's ever o.k. to pray to Jesus or if the scripture shows that anyone ever has.  

I'm asking where in the bible it teaches that if you don't pray to Jesus that means you don't have an acceptable relationship with the Savior.  Where does the bible say that you MUST pray to Jesus (not just God, but Jesus specifically)? You have asserted that specific thing and so you should have some specific references to back up that statement of fact.

 

The Bible doesn't even mention having relationships at all.

[Avatar4321]

5 hours ago, snowflake said:

Listen to the testimonies at your next testimony meeting and see if Jesus is the most important aspect in the LDS life, I was LDS for almost 20 years and can assure you from experience that he is not.  In fact I never even noticed it until someone pointed it out to me, so take some mental notes and the only mention of Jesus you will hear is an occasional   "Jesus is the Christ"  and at the very end,  "in Jesus' name amen".  No one will praise his name, worship him, or glorify him.

I don't feel qualified to judge others, I am simply making observations.  Ask you LDS friends what is the most important thing to them in their life and you will almost  always get the same answer.

You realize that partaking his sacrament is worshipping him, right? And singing songs to Him. And testifying of Him. And teaching His words. And obeying His commandments. And serving others.

There isn't a Sunday in the Church where Jesus isn't worshipped. And there is no way I believe you were in the church 20 years and don't see that worshiping the Lord is center to what we do every week. Nor do I believe that you managed to never study the Book of Mormon or D&C if you were in the Church 

[Vance]

11 hours ago, snowflake said:

Jesus should be the priority of a Christian's life, he trumps spouse, children, parents, job, "church", house, country...everything. He is worthy of praise, worship and prayer.  These are the signs of an acceptable relationship with Jesus. Jesus is Before/above all things.

 Would doing what Jesus taught be qualified as worshipping Him?

 

How about praying the way He taught his disciples to pray?  Does that qualify as "worship"?

 

Jesus taught (Matt 6:) 5 ¶ And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

  6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

  7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

  8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

  9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

  10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

  11 Give us this day our daily bread.

  12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

  13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

 

What a shame that people who follow the teachings of Jesus are condemned for not worshipping him properly.