snowflake Posted June 21, 2016 Author Posted June 21, 2016 11 minutes ago, JAHS said: Like you just did? Actually, he didn't say we should not worship Jesus. He said that we should not have a close personal relationship with only Jesus to the point that we forget about God the Father, who should be the main focus of our worship. 31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt? 32 And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased. 33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God. Here In Matthew 14, we have another example of the apostles worshipping Jesus. In reading the B.O.M. and the N.T. the apostles most certainly had a close personal relationship with Jesus, to the point that they were Martyred for him and his message. I don't think they got Mr.McConkey's memo.
JAHS Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 17 minutes ago, consiglieri said: 1. We worship the Father and him only and no one else. We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense—the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator. https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r-mcconkie_relationship-lord/ He still said we could worship Jesus but in a different way from God the Father. That's why I said God should be the main focus of our worship. Has any other church authority said the same thing as McConkie? Not sure others would agree with him.
JAHS Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) 30 minutes ago, snowflake said: I don't mean to be getting of topic here, but I was taught that Jesus is the spirit offspring of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.....no? How can Jesus be the Eternal God if he is created? The B.O.M. really sounds like the evangelical view of Jesus on this one. Jesus has always existed as an intelligence. In that way He is eternal, but He is the spirit child of God the Father and Mother. Eternal doesn't have to mean time; it can also refer to the degree of His power and size of the creations that he is Lord over and the fact that He has become an eternal being and will exist forever in the future. Edited June 21, 2016 by JAHS
JLHPROF Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 31 minutes ago, snowflake said: I don't mean to be getting of topic here, but I was taught that Jesus is the spirit offspring of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.....no? How can Jesus be the Eternal God if he is created? The B.O.M. really sounds like the evangelical view of Jesus on this one. 1. Because eternity has two directions. And for all eternity to come Christ will be a God, regardless of whether there was a starting point when he became such. 2. And that's assuming you don't subscribe to Joseph Smith's explanation that there are multiple eternities, and when God speaks of eternity he is really speaking of the temporal (time) existence of this creation. 3. Or we could take the teaching that we are all eternal because as intelligences we were neither made nor could be made but have always existed, Christ included. Three simple explanations from Mormon doctrine for what you incorrectly see as a contradiction in the Book of Mormon.
Popular Post bluebell Posted June 21, 2016 Popular Post Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) McConkie did believe in worshipping Christ. The words to one of the most popular LDS hymns--I Believe in Christ--was written by McConkie. 1. I believe in Christ; he is my King! With all my heart to him I'll sing; I'll raise my voice in praise and joy, In grand amens my tongue employ. I believe in Christ; he is God's Son. On earth to dwell his soul did come. He healed the sick; the dead he raised. Good works were his; his name be praised. 2. I believe in Christ; oh blessed name! As Mary's Son he came to reign 'Mid mortal men, his earthly kin, To save them from the woes of sin. I believe in Christ, who marked the path, Who did gain all his Father hath, Who said to men: "Come, follow me, That ye, my friends, with God may be." 3. I believe in Christ--my Lord, my God! My feet he plants on gospel sod.I'll worship him with all my might; He is the source of truth and light. I believe in Christ; he ransoms me. From Satan's grasp he sets me free, And I shall live with joy and love In his eternal courts above. 4. I believe in Christ; he stands supreme! From him I'll gain my fondest dream; And while I strive through grief and pain, His voice is heard: "Ye shall obtain." I believe in Christ; so come what may, With him I'll stand in that great day When on this earth he comes again To rule among the sons of men. Edited June 21, 2016 by bluebell 5
Storm Rider Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 4 hours ago, snowflake said: Am I to assume that worshiping Jesus with all of my might, mind and strength, my whole soul..........but no prayer? Bow down, the holy one of Israel,........but don't pray to him....just worship? To whome did Jesus teach his disciples to pray? Come on snowflake, don't be so silly. Either read your scriptures or stop asking silly questions. If you are trying to pick a fight go somewhere else; this forum is for discussion not arguments. 2
consiglieri Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 20 minutes ago, JAHS said: He still said we could worship Jesus but in a different way from God the Father. That's why I said God should be the main focus of our worship. Has any other church authority said the same thing as McConkie? Not sure others would agree with him. Whether by my own mouth, or the mouth of my servants, it is the same.
JAHS Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 3 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Whether by my own mouth, or the mouth of my servants, it is the same. You are forgetting another requirement for revelation: "And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation." (D&C 68: 4) Do we know that McConkie was moved upon by the Holy Ghost when he said that? Whatever the case he did not say we could not worship Jesus in some way.
bluebell Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 5 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Whether by my own mouth, or the mouth of my servants, it is the same. McConkie did believe in worshipping Christ (as his words clearly show), just not in the way that a group of members had started to worship Him, which is why he gave that speech. 2
snowflake Posted June 21, 2016 Author Posted June 21, 2016 20 minutes ago, JAHS said: He still said we could worship Jesus but in a different way from God the Father. That's why I said God should be the main focus of our worship. Has any other church authority said the same thing as McConkie? Not sure others would agree with him. Man I love Bruce McConkie! No one gets as fired up as he did and just lay it out there like he used to!! Thanks for the cough......cough......clarification. He clearly states that Jesus is not to be worshipped. 1. We worship the Father and him only and no one else. We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense—the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator. John 9 37: And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. 38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. 39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. Jesus is worshipped as a child, during his 3 year ministry, after his resurrection but before his ascension into heaven, and after his ascension into heaven as well. Plus he is worshipped and prayed to as well in 3 Nephi. I think scripturally I am on pretty solid ground here saying that it is OK to pray to and worship Jesus.
Calm Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 5 hours ago, RBoylan said: I rarely post here.... Which is very unfortunate...
bluebell Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 8 minutes ago, snowflake said: Man I love Bruce McConkie! No one gets as fired up as he did and just lay it out there like he used to!! Thanks for the cough......cough......clarification. He clearly states that Jesus is not to be worshipped. 1. We worship the Father and him only and no one else. We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense—the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator. John 9 37: And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. 38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. 39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. Jesus is worshipped as a child, during his 3 year ministry, after his resurrection but before his ascension into heaven, and after his ascension into heaven as well. Plus he is worshipped and prayed to as well in 3 Nephi. I think scripturally I am on pretty solid ground here saying that it is OK to pray to and worship Jesus. McConkie believed in worshipping Christ as well. He wrote it specifically into a hymn. See my earlier post where i quoted the lyrics. 2
Calm Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 https://www.lds.org/church/news/worship-jesus-by-emulating-him-elder-rasband-teaches?lang=eng "“How will we worship Him this season?” ElderRonald A. Rasband of the Presidency of the Seventy asked during the Christmas Devotional held in the Conference Center on December 8" https://www.lds.org/new-era/1998/05/are-mormons-christians?lang=eng Can't copy this text on my ipad, but it references fact we worship Christ. "“Mormons do participate in Christmas and worship Christ.”" https://www.lds.org/church/news/mormonorg-christmas-initiative-launches-online-and-in-nyc?lang=eng&country=ca https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1998/10/what-are-people-asking-about-us?lang=eng "We believe in Christ. We worship Christ." If these are not enough, feel free to site search lds.org for all the "worship" "Christ" remarks you can find until you are convinced. 1
consiglieri Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 22 minutes ago, bluebell said: McConkie did believe in worshipping Christ (as his words clearly show), just not in the way that a group of members had started to worship Him, which is why he gave that speech. So it's okay to worship Jesus; just not to worship Jesus. Got it!
bluebell Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 3 minutes ago, consiglieri said: So it's okay to worship Jesus; just not to worship Jesus. Got it! Exactly.
JAHS Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 20 minutes ago, snowflake said: I think scripturally I am on pretty solid ground here saying that it is OK to pray to and worship Jesus. Worship, Yes. Pray to. No, unless you are not a latter-day saint.
RevTestament Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 1 hour ago, snowflake said: I don't mean to be getting of topic here, but I was taught that Jesus is the spirit offspring of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.....no? How can Jesus be the Eternal God if he is created? The B.O.M. really sounds like the evangelical view of Jesus on this one. So you believe His body was not created?
snowflake Posted June 21, 2016 Author Posted June 21, 2016 4 minutes ago, RevTestament said: So you believe His body was not created? 5 minutes ago, RevTestament said: So you believe His body was not created? 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us
Calm Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 6 minutes ago, snowflake said: 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us Is that a yes? If so, then that is somewhat like us, as we believe the spirit is created for a prior experience, essentially the Word was made spirit and dwelt among us other spirits before we all who accepted him in the role as our Redeemer moved on to the mortal experience. I believe that which makes Christ uniquely him and that which allows him to take on the role as our Creator and Redeemer, as the Word are attributes of his intelligence that has always existed and will always exist, thus he is the Eternal God even if some aspects of his eternal life had a start in time, such as his mortal role. 2
stemelbow Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 31 minutes ago, JAHS said: Worship, Yes. Pray to. No, unless you are not a latter-day saint. It's ok for everyone else to pray to Jesus except us? That sucks. Why can't we do as those from the scriptures have done?
Jeanne Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) Guess what? I always talked to him anyway and I have great conversations with my heavenly mother. I talk to my brothers here on earth and whthen I need my big brother in the heavens, I talk to him too. Gees..this is just so fundamental! Edited June 21, 2016 by Jeanne 1
Calm Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, stemelbow said: It's ok for everyone else to pray to Jesus except us? That sucks. Why can't we do as those from the scriptures have done? I don't think it is an issue to pray to Jesus myself as long as we are not using him to replace the Father in either our words or heart. The problem becomes when we diminish the Father's roles in our lives and instead give glory more to those he works through, whether Christ, prophets or scientists, etc. Recognizing all of these for what they do, their love and sacrifice and even attempting to communicate with them is not a bad thing as long as trying to establish that connection doesn't interfere with our efforts to seek out God the Father. Edited June 21, 2016 by Calm 4
stemelbow Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 1 minute ago, Calm said: I don't think it is an issue to pray to Jesus myself as long as we are not using him to replace the Father in either our words or heart. That's understandable, I'd say.
Popular Post Calm Posted June 21, 2016 Popular Post Posted June 21, 2016 I think ignoring Christ's instructions on how to pray to the Father is a form of refusing to worship Christ, btw. Thus I do not think it is appropriate to pray in the same way and just substitute the Son for the Father, but I think through study and more so seeking the Spirit and constantly worshipping the Father, we can find the path the Lord wishes us to take in seeking him as well as the Father. 5
snowflake Posted June 21, 2016 Author Posted June 21, 2016 9 minutes ago, Calm said: Is that a yes? If so, then that is somewhat like us, as we believe the spirit is created for a prior experience, essentially the Word was made spirit and dwelt among us other spirits before we all who accepted him in the role as our Redeemer moved on to the mortal experience. I believe that which makes Christ uniquely him and that which allows him to take on the role as our Creator and Redeemer, as the Word are attributes of his intelligence that has always existed and will always exist, thus he is the Eternal God even if some aspects of his eternal life had a start in time, such as his mortal role. Except it never says the Word was made spirit. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Another scripture that describes it is Philippians 2:7-10 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. I'm not sure if this answers your question of is Jesus' body was "created" or not. But we are told he took on flesh, in the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men. Have you bowed your knee to Jesus and confessed that Jesus is Lord? I sure hope you would!
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