bluebell Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 52 minutes ago, snowflake said: In my opinion the LDS put Jesus on a different level with God, like he is God's spiritual offspring...like he is the literal creation by God, thus not equal with the Father and not worthy of praying to. This is accurate. We do put Jesus on a different level than God the Father. We believe that Jesus is subordinate to God the Father. That doesn't mean that He is not worth praying to. The only reason that LDS don't generally pray to Jesus is because we believe Jesus has told us not to, but to pray to God in His name. 2
Tacenda Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 55 minutes ago, snowflake said: Maybe I am just seeing what I want to see, obviously the hymn above is clear worship of the Savior. However, when I read the paper written by Mr.McConkey about not worshipping Jesus.....and I guess I just don't see how they can agree with each other. I guess I don't have the mental gymnastics required to understand how to worship Jesus but not to have a close personal relationship with him as warned about by Mr.McConkey. I know that sometimes as well we use the same language but our definitions and meanings are different, this is very common with LDS/ev dialogue. PaPa has told me that by "When we address him directly, instead of he who me Jesus Christ came to glorify, we dishonor both. A number of Christ's Apostles did, but they knew him personally, something a little different." I would understand your concern if Jesus isn't actually God..it would be considered idol worship, .but Jesus is God. Mosiah 15 clearly states this. 2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son— 3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son— 4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. In my opinion the LDS put Jesus on a different level with God, like he is God's spiritual offspring...like he is the literal creation by God, thus not equal with the Father and not worthy of praying to. I think the struggle here is, that LDS don't believe Jesus and God are one, only in purpose.
Jeanne Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 7 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Do you know how lucky you are to still have a connection with a Father/God in your situation? A lot of ex LDS members find it difficult to believe in anything when their Mormon belief goes. I do. Which is why I am here. Some would like to wring my neck about my differences though..and how I feel about God may be different than trying to separate from the "Mormon God" which is not really explainable..but yes, I have to. My desire to hang on to hope revolves around God..who is still my God and who I believe loves me whether I make all these covenants or not. Thanks Tacenda!
jkwilliams Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 11 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I think the struggle here is, that LDS don't believe Jesus and God are one, only in purpose. My guess is that snowflake may not have a firm grasp on LDS theology. The weird proof texting from LDS scripture strongly suggests that. 3
snowflake Posted June 23, 2016 Author Posted June 23, 2016 13 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: My guess is that snowflake may not have a firm grasp on LDS theology. The weird proof texting from LDS scripture strongly suggests that. And you very may well be correct. I try to understand the theology through the text itself. I don't particularly trust your LDS "prophets", when it comes to understanding theology, their track record isn't very impressive when it comes to standing the test of time. A perfect example would be McConkey and his paper on not having a relationship with Jesus and then you look at his Hymn praising Jesus. Consig said it perfectly. Worship Jesus, but don't worship Him..??...?? 1840 Joseph Smith theology is vastly different than 2016 Salt Lake LDS sect theology.
jkwilliams Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 14 minutes ago, snowflake said: And you very may well be correct. I try to understand the theology through the text itself. I don't particularly trust your LDS "prophets", when it comes to understanding theology, their track record isn't very impressive when it comes to standing the test of time. A perfect example would be McConkey and his paper on not having a relationship with Jesus and then you look at his Hymn praising Jesus. Consig said it perfectly. Worship Jesus, but don't worship Him..??...?? 1840 Joseph Smith theology is vastly different than 2016 Salt Lake LDS sect theology. My prophets? What you might do is read through the Gospel Principles manual for an overview of the basics. I will add a link when I have a minute. I was at BYU when McConkie gave that talk. I thought it was a crummy thing for him to do, and I do not believe anyone considers his views authoritative or binding.
bluebell Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 13 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: My prophets? What you might do is read through the Gospel Principles manual for an overview of the basics. I will add a link when I have a minute. I was at BYU when McConkie gave that talk. I thought it was a crummy thing for him to do, and I do not believe anyone considers his views authoritative or binding. Here it is- The Gospel Principles manual 2
boblloyd91 Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 1 hour ago, snowflake said: Ouch,.... that is not very nice. What have I lied about? Well it's not very nice to authoritatively tell someone that they don't have a relationship with the Savior because they don't agree with your biblical interpretation. As far as what you're lying about it's your assertion that LDS don't worship Jesus 1
Atheist Mormon Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 On 6/21/2016 at 8:52 AM, snowflake said: No you are not bursting my bubble, thank you for the scripture. So it is OK for me to pray directly to Jesus? As a doubter (on my way out of religion) this subject always bothered me; 1# - Why God chooses another intermediary? The answer came easy; because he never could finish the job he started; First He tried to wipe out humanity (minus 10 or so) start a clean sheet, that obviously didn't work, then He wiped out whole city Sodom&Gomorrah and I have no idea how he came up with sacrificing His Son Jesus.....If we worship Jesus the way we worship God then the result is bad; It equals to polytheism where Christians abhor.
jkwilliams Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 42 minutes ago, bluebell said: Here it is- The Gospel Principles manual Thank you.
snowflake Posted June 23, 2016 Author Posted June 23, 2016 1 hour ago, jkwilliams said: My prophets? What you might do is read through the Gospel Principles manual for an overview of the basics. I will add a link when I have a minute. I was at BYU when McConkie gave that talk. I thought it was a crummy thing for him to do, and I do not believe anyone considers his views authoritative or binding. Thanks for the link, but who wrote these? are they authorative? How should I rank them as compared to the Bible, BOM, and other standard works, and what if they don't agree with what the modern day prophets taught? Everything in Mormonism can change and does change.....I have been encouraged to read the BOM and have been doing just that, but when I read something out of the BOM and the heading says "How Christ is both the Father and the Son", I get confused because that sounds like the trinity to me. I get Mosiah 15, I think it more clearly explains the trinity than in the N.T.
jkwilliams Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 30 minutes ago, snowflake said: Thanks for the link, but who wrote these? are they authorative? How should I rank them as compared to the Bible, BOM, and other standard works, and what if they don't agree with what the modern day prophets taught? Everything in Mormonism can change and does change.....I have been encouraged to read the BOM and have been doing just that, but when I read something out of the BOM and the heading says "How Christ is both the Father and the Son", I get confused because that sounds like the trinity to me. I get Mosiah 15, I think it more clearly explains the trinity than in the N.T. What is authoritative is that which has been through the correlation process. This manual bears the IRI copyright, which means it's been correlated.
Vance Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 On 6/22/2016 at 6:31 AM, snowflake said: Well, what I've been told so far on this thread is that we are not to pray directly to Jesus, that is one way. McConkey has told us that we are not to have a personal relationship with Jesus either. And yet Jesus disciples prayed to him (while he was in their presences). Still, I don't see that either the Father or the Son are negatively effected by prayers directed to one or the other. And McConkie was a very smart man, but what difference is their between having a personal relationship with the Father versus the Son? I suspect, that since the main way either communicates to us is through the Holy Spirit, there is absolutely NO difference. So, is there really any difference between worshiping the Father versus worshiping the Son? I suggest that there is no difference. 1
Vance Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 4 hours ago, snowflake said: Everything in Mormonism can change and does change..... Not so! The foundation of "Mormonism" is revelation from God. That can't change and hasn't changed.
thesometimesaint Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 22 hours ago, snowflake said: And you very may well be correct. I try to understand the theology through the text itself. I don't particularly trust your LDS "prophets", when it comes to understanding theology, their track record isn't very impressive when it comes to standing the test of time. A perfect example would be McConkey and his paper on not having a relationship with Jesus and then you look at his Hymn praising Jesus. Consig said it perfectly. Worship Jesus, but don't worship Him..??...?? 1840 Joseph Smith theology is vastly different than 2016 Salt Lake LDS sect theology. Whatever Brother McConkies' ideas he alone is responsible for them.
thesometimesaint Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 20 hours ago, snowflake said: Thanks for the link, but who wrote these? are they authorative? How should I rank them as compared to the Bible, BOM, and other standard works, and what if they don't agree with what the modern day prophets taught? Everything in Mormonism can change and does change.....I have been encouraged to read the BOM and have been doing just that, but when I read something out of the BOM and the heading says "How Christ is both the Father and the Son", I get confused because that sounds like the trinity to me. I get Mosiah 15, I think it more clearly explains the trinity than in the N.T. The Scriptures are clear We are the offspring of God the Father. We become offspring of Christ by our faith.
Avatar4321 Posted June 26, 2016 Posted June 26, 2016 On 6/21/2016 at 11:05 AM, snowflake said: I'm confused, we have first century Christians praying to Jesus, worshiping him and calling him God, in the B.O.M. and in the N.T. Maybe they thought he was God? he is God... Not sure what's so difficult to figure out about that. 1
Avatar4321 Posted June 26, 2016 Posted June 26, 2016 On 6/22/2016 at 11:15 AM, snowflake said: I disagree, In 3 Nephi 19, Christ does not correct the apostles for "dishonoring and disregarding God the father". He accepts the worship and prayer, you are not basing your assumption on the standard works. My LDS friends always refer to Jesus as "the Savior", like he is distant, far off and alienated. They seem to understand what he has done but they never sing of him, adore him, or worship him. PaPa, respectfully, I don't think you understand the term because you haven't invited him into your life as LORD and King. When you speak to a true believing Christian, Jesus becomes the most important thing in their life, He becomes more important than spouse and children. Clearly this is not the case with you.....again this does not come as a personal attack, just an observation. Respectfully and with love, Snowflake. that is pure nonsense. No latter day saint can get through church without singing about Jesus Christ, praising him, or remembering him. The sacrament is centered on doing exactly that. I invite you to come to church and see for yourself 1
Avatar4321 Posted June 26, 2016 Posted June 26, 2016 On 6/23/2016 at 1:19 PM, snowflake said: And you very may well be correct. I try to understand the theology through the text itself. I don't particularly trust your LDS "prophets", when it comes to understanding theology, their track record isn't very impressive when it comes to standing the test of time. A perfect example would be McConkey and his paper on not having a relationship with Jesus and then you look at his Hymn praising Jesus. Consig said it perfectly. Worship Jesus, but don't worship Him..??...?? 1840 Joseph Smith theology is vastly different than 2016 Salt Lake LDS sect theology. so we are supposed to ignore our years of study and accept that you, someone who clearly isn't familiar with the Book of Mormon or the basic sacrament meetings has the knowledge to conclude that the theology Joseph taught is vastly different than current theology? forgive me but ill take my own studies over that claim any day 1
snowflake Posted June 27, 2016 Author Posted June 27, 2016 15 hours ago, Avatar4321 said: so we are supposed to ignore our years of study and accept that you, someone who clearly isn't familiar with the Book of Mormon or the basic sacrament meetings has the knowledge to conclude that the theology Joseph taught is vastly different than current theology? forgive me but ill take my own studies over that claim any day In your years of study of the BOM and the Bible did you notice that Jesus commands to use wine to represent his blood during the sacrament? (In the BOM and Bible) Why has your church changed such an important element. If Joseph "restored" the church to be the same as in the first century churches (Old world and in the new world) where is the restoration of the wine? Am I missing something basic here about your sacrament? Look up the word "restore".
bluebell Posted June 27, 2016 Posted June 27, 2016 1 minute ago, snowflake said: In your years of study of the BOM and the Bible did you notice that Jesus commands to use wine to represent his blood during the sacrament? (In the BOM and Bible) Why has your church changed such an important element. If Joseph "restored" the church to be the same as in the first century churches (Old world and in the new world) where is the restoration of the wine? Am I missing something basic here about your sacrament? Look up the word "restore". Has this just become a thread where, when one of your concerns is answered, you just throw something else at us to see if that complaint will actually stick? It's getting a bit odd. As to this newest complaint, the reason we use water instead of wine is because we believe Jesus said it doesn't matter what liquid is used for the sacrament. Doctrine and Covenants 27: 1-4: 1 Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Lord, your God, and your Redeemer, whose word is quick and powerful. 2 For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins. 3 Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, that you shall not purchase wine neither strong drink of your enemies; 4 Wherefore, you shall partake of none except it is made new among you; yea, in this my Father’s kingdom which shall be built up on the earth. 3
Tacenda Posted June 27, 2016 Posted June 27, 2016 1 minute ago, snowflake said: In your years of study of the BOM and the Bible did you notice that Jesus commands to use wine to represent his blood during the sacrament? (In the BOM and Bible) Why has your church changed such an important element. If Joseph "restored" the church to be the same as in the first century churches (Old world and in the new world) where is the restoration of the wine? Am I missing something basic here about your sacrament? Look up the word "restore". This doesn't bother me, I think water as a substitution is just fine. I especially don't like the drinking out of a goblet that has been sipped on by several others. I mean no disrespect though. The thing that bothers me is sitting in Sacrament Meeting yesterday, and listening to a missionary sister who's about to serve a mission and not mention Jesus Christ the whole time. Jesus is totally in the background, but I guess it's because Jesus is a given. It seemed the whole idea of going on a mission was what was being worshiped. But I know she is young and probably really nervous, and hopefully has a great testimony of the Saviour. 1
Avatar4321 Posted June 27, 2016 Posted June 27, 2016 5 hours ago, snowflake said: In your years of study of the BOM and the Bible did you notice that Jesus commands to use wine to represent his blood during the sacrament? (In the BOM and Bible) Why has your church changed such an important element. If Joseph "restored" the church to be the same as in the first century churches (Old world and in the new world) where is the restoration of the wine? Am I missing something basic here about your sacrament? Look up the word "restore". so you're going to ignore every point I made and double down on showing how unfamiliar you are with restoration theology? You are making my point for me.
snowflake Posted June 28, 2016 Author Posted June 28, 2016 14 hours ago, Avatar4321 said: so yu're going to ignore every point I made and double down on showing how unfamiliar you are with restoration theology? You are making my point for me. Avatar, I'm sure you know the Savior very well and you worship him when you take the sacrament. Do you pray to him? Do you worship him as Lord and King? My point is that when I observe LDS and their relationship with Jesus they rarely call him Jesus, they seem to recognize him but the relationships always seem distant. Terms like "the Savior" are always used, "his atonement"...."what he did for us"......In my opinion, because LDS don't pray directly to Jesus, they don't truly have a personal relationship with him. How can you truly worship him without prayer?
snowflake Posted June 28, 2016 Author Posted June 28, 2016 20 hours ago, bluebell said: Has this just become a thread where, when one of your concerns is answered, you just throw something else at us to see if that complaint will actually stick? It's getting a bit odd. As to this newest complaint, the reason we use water instead of wine is because we believe Jesus said it doesn't matter what liquid is used for the sacrament. Doctrine and Covenants 27: 1-4: 1 Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Lord, your God, and your Redeemer, whose word is quick and powerful. 2 For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins. 3 Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, that you shall not purchase wine neither strong drink of your enemies; 4 Wherefore, you shall partake of none except it is made new among you; yea, in this my Father’s kingdom which shall be built up on the earth. Agreed I am getting a bit off base, sorry. This discussion is for another thread, point taken Bluebell.
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