Intelligences Organized

[Gray]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Here we go again speculating on celestial test tubes and ignoring the admittedly vague but easily applied scriptures on the subject.

Eternally married heterosexual couples are the only ones promised eternal increase of seed.  There must be a reason for that.
Or how about the fact that we know the earthly pattern is in the image of the heavenly pattern.

And don't get me started on the teachings of Brigham Young, John Taylor and others on the subject.
 

Teachings on celestial procreation seem to have ignored the fact that one of the foundation pieces of LDS theology is that all of us always existed. We are co-eternal with God. 

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, Gray said:

Teachings on celestial procreation seem to have ignored the fact that one of the foundation pieces of LDS theology is that all of us always existed. We are co-eternal with God.

We might, our bodies may not have.  Neither spiritual or physical.

[Gray]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

We might, our bodies may not have.  Neither spiritual or physical.

I'm not sure I follow 

[Bernard Gui]

13 minutes ago, ALarson said:

This is physical creation.  We do not know how spiritual creation or organization of intelligence takes place or if it's even comparable to physically procreating.  I don't believe we are creating an "intelligence" when we have babies, do you?  I believe that the spirit or intelligence was already created prior to this. 

You do not know that organization of intelligence "required the union of two genders".   

 

This is what we know:

Adam, our first progenitor, “the first man,” was, like Christ, a preexistent spirit, and like Christ he took upon him an appropriate body, the body of a man, and so became a “living soul.” The doctrine of the preexistence—revealed so plainly, particularly in latter days—pours a wonderful flood of light upon the otherwise mysterious problem of man’s origin. It shows that man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal body to undergo an experience in mortality. It teaches that all men existed in the spirit before any man existed in the flesh and that all who have inhabited the earth since Adam have taken bodies and become souls in like manner.

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, Gray said:

I'm not sure I follow

We existed as intelligences eternally.
That doesn't in any way preclude Celestial procreation for the formation of our spirit bodies into which our intelligences were placed.
 

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

This is what we know:

Adam, our first progenitor, “the first man,” was, like Christ, a preexistent spirit, and like Christ he took upon him an appropriate body, the body of a man, and so became a “living soul.” The doctrine of the preexistence—revealed so plainly, particularly in latter days—pours a wonderful flood of light upon the otherwise mysterious problem of man’s origin. It shows that man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal body to undergo an experience in mortality. It teaches that all men existed in the spirit before any man existed in the flesh and that all who have inhabited the earth since Adam have taken bodies and become souls in like manner.

Rather than this being what we do knkow, it is what we know was said by leaders of the past.  We have !st Presidency messages of the past that are currently rejected, so we can't rely on that.

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

This is what we know:

No, that is what you believe.  I understand that you believe this was written by a man (or men) who were inspired to write what you quoted.  But again, those are beliefs, not certain knowledge.  We do not  know how spirits are created or how intelligence is organized.

[Bernard Gui]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Rather than this being what we do knkow, it is what we know was said by leaders of the past.  We have !st Presidency messages of the past that are currently rejected, so we can't rely on that.

Has any current leader rejected this proclamation? It was reprinted in the Ensign in 2002. I feel very confident relying on it until further than revelation is given.

[stemelbow]

Just now, Bernard Gui said:

Has any current leader rejected this proclamation? It was reprinted in the Ensign in 2002. I feel very confident relying on it until further than revelation is given.

Sounds good.  rely on it.  But I don't know that it constitutes what we do know on the topic.  Maybe believe. 

[Gray]

10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

We existed as intelligences eternally.
That doesn't in any way preclude Celestial procreation for the formation of our spirit bodies into which our intelligences were placed.
 

It's not totally clear if intelligences are identical to spirits, or if intelligences were a less "organized" (meaning unclear) version of spirits. But I don't know of any doctrine that says that there is a spirit body that is powered by an internal intelligences "soul". That's a new one on me. How far down does our nesting doll nature go?

[CV75]

50 minutes ago, ALarson said:

This is physical creation.  We do not know how spiritual creation or organization of intelligence takes place or if it's even comparable to physically procreating.  I don't believe we are creating an "intelligence" when we have babies, do you?  I believe that the spirit or intelligence was already created prior to this. 

You do not know that organization of intelligence "required the union of two genders".   

 

Oh yes I do (to repeat something you may have missed):

Intelligence is organized in many stages. What we call procreation is merely the organization of our world’s mortal element with “separably connected” spirit, which is intelligence. As mortal beings we engage in an aspect and phase of organizing intelligences. Every organized intelligence is invited to receive further organization, and for this purpose we come to earth, receive covenants, are resurrected, etc.

However intelligences are organized in the various estates (we see it as physical procreation in this world, the “continuation of the seeds” in the next), the process requires a partner of each gender (husband and wife) as set forth in D&C 132. “The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife [mortally and eternally]” which roles are tied to their respective gender, “an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.” Our premortal estate is a product of our Heavenly Parents’ continuation of the seeds and this pattern of marriage continues.

Where “God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation [the sacred powers of organizing intelligences] are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife,” only the D&C 132 type of marriage will do.

The D&C 132 type of marriage is one incorporating the two genders and yielding the continuation of the seeds (organizing intelligence in the exalted sphere, bringing them into the pre-mortal estate, and ministering to them through the mortal and resurrected estates to be reunited in the exalted state: it is one process).

[Ahab]

5 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Are there any good sources that describe the godly process of organizing intelligences? Is there reason to believe sexual procreation would be required for organization? If there is, I'd like to hear them.

Organizing = creating.

Intelligences = living beings with intelligence. 

Organizing intelligences = creating living beings with intelligence.

Good sources that describe the godly process of organizing intelligences = records which God has inspired to be written that describe how God did it.

The scriptures that describe God's creation mention God saying "let there be" various kinds of living things while he also said "let them" reproduce their own kinds by the "seeds" that each kind has within them.  

For example,  for our kind of being to reproduce on this planet there had to be a source with our kind of "seed" within it,  which is why God said to some other person who was with him: "let us" go down and form "man" in our image.  Otherwise his kind, which we refer to as mankind, would not have been reproduced on this planet. 

Sexual procreation = procreation of sexes.

Procreation = mingling of "seed" with "sperm" (to reproduce our kind of being)

[HappyJackWagon]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Organizing = creating.

Intelligences = living beings with intelligence. 

Organizing intelligences = creating living beings with intelligence.

Good sources that describe the godly process of organizing intelligences = records which God has inspired to be written that describe how God did it.

The scriptures that describe God's creation mention God saying "let there be" various kinds of living things while he also said "let them" reproduce their own kinds by the "seeds" that each kind has within them.  

For example,  for our kind of being to reproduce on this planet there had to be a source with our kind of "seed" within it,  which is why God said to some other person who was with him: "let us" go down and form "man" in our image.  Otherwise his kind, which we refer to as mankind, would not have been reproduced on this planet. 

Sexual procreation = procreation of sexes.

Procreation = mingling of "seed" with "sperm" (to reproduce our kind of being)

So much to comment on but I'll limit my response to just one thing.

According to your arithmetic God is creating living beings with intelligence from living beings with intelligence.

Intelligence is eternal so that would mean there are living, eternal beings with intelligence.

God then creates living beings from those living beings? Please try again.

[Bernard Gui]

56 minutes ago, ALarson said:

No, that is what you believe.  I understand that you believe this was written by a man (or men) who were inspired to write what you quoted.  But again, those are beliefs, not certain knowledge.  We do not  know how spirits are created or how intelligence is organized.

Quote

Man, by searching, cannot find out God. Never, unaided, will he discover the truth about the beginning of human life. The Lord must reveal Himself or remain unrevealed; and the same is true of the facts relating to the origin of Adam’s race—God alone can reveal them. Some of these facts, however, are already known, and what has been made known it is our duty to receive and retain.

Speaking as a Latter-day Saint, I choose to receive and retain what is known. I understand you are free to believe otherwise. 

Edited June 8, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

Happy Jack said:

So you are assuming we are created in the image of HM & HF and therefore concluding that eternal reproduction must also work like earthly reproduction.  Lots of assuming going on around here

 

Ok so the assumption is that Eternal reproduction must work like earthly reproduction.  That seems to be a "bad assumption"

Yet in the OP he said

Quote

In most discussions surrounding SSM, it is often taught/suggested that it is impossible for SSM to be an eternal union because clearly two individuals of the same gender would not be able to procreate. This, of course, presumes that creation of spirits in the next world will be similar to creation of human bodies in this world.

Yet here he is saying that SSM REQUIRES Eternal reproduction to work like earthly reproduction.

So which is it?

Clearly SSM CANNOT REQUIRE CELESTIAL REPRODUCTION to be like earthly reproduction because here the same sexes cannot create a baby naturally.

The position seems totally confused.

It is clear to me this is not about reproduction at all in an earthly sense, but something else we do not understand at all about the organization of spirit bodies.

 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Teachings on celestial procreation seem to have ignored the fact that one of the foundation pieces of LDS theology is that all of us always existed. We are co-eternal with God. 

Here are some official teachings on celestial procreation:

Quote

So also life is eternal, and not created; but life, or the vital force, may be infused into organized matter, though the details of the process have not been revealed unto man. (For illustrative instances see Gen. 2:7; Moses 3:7; Abr. 5:7.) Each of these scriptures states that God breathed into the body of man the breath of life. See further Moses 3:19 for the statement that God breathed the breath of life into the bodies of the beasts and birds. God showed unto Abraham “the intelligences that were organized before the world was”; and by “intelligences” we are to understand personal “spirits” (see Abr. 3:22–23); nevertheless, we are expressly told that “Intelligence,” that is, “the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be” (D&C 93:29).

Quote

Jesus Christ is not the Father of the spirits who have taken or yet shall take bodies upon this earth, for He is one of them. He is The Son, as they are sons or daughters of Elohim. So far as the stages of eternal progression and attainment have been made known through divine revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring. Only such exalted souls have reached maturity in the appointed course of eternal life; and the spirits born to them in the eternal worlds will pass in due sequence through the several stages or estates by which the glorified parents have attained exaltation.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/04/the-father-and-the-son?lang=eng

[Ahab]

23 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

So much to comment on but I'll limit my response to just one thing.

According to your arithmetic God is creating living beings with intelligence from living beings with intelligence.

Intelligence is eternal so that would mean there are living, eternal beings with intelligence.

God then creates living beings from those living beings? Please try again.

Yes, that's right.

How many more times would you like me to try that again?

[Bernard Gui]

56 minutes ago, Gray said:

It's not totally clear if intelligences are identical to spirits, or if intelligences were a less "organized" (meaning unclear) version of spirits. But I don't know of any doctrine that says that there is a spirit body that is powered by an internal intelligences "soul". That's a new one on me. How far down does our nesting doll nature go?

Quote

So also life is eternal, and not created; but life, or the vital force, may be infused into organized matter, though the details of the process have not been revealed unto man. (For illustrative instances see Gen. 2:7; Moses 3:7; Abr. 5:7.) Each of these scriptures states that God breathed into the body of man the breath of life. See further Moses 3:19 for the statement that God breathed the breath of life into the bodies of the beasts and birds. God showed unto Abraham “the intelligences that were organized before the world was”; and by “intelligences” we are to understand personal “spirits” (see Abr. 3:22–23); nevertheless, we are expressly told that “Intelligence,” that is, “the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be” (D&C 93:29).

From The Origin of Man, First Presidency Declaration.

[HappyJackWagon]

12 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Ok so the assumption is that Eternal reproduction must work like earthly reproduction.  That seems to be a "bad assumption"

Yet in the OP he said

Yet here he is saying that SSM REQUIRES Eternal reproduction to work like earthly reproduction.

So which is it?

Clearly SSM CANNOT REQUIRE CELESTIAL REPRODUCTION to be like earthly reproduction because here the same sexes cannot create a baby naturally.

The position seems totally confused.

It is clear to me this is not about reproduction at all in an earthly sense, but something else we do not understand at all about the organization of spirit bodies.

 

MF-yes, you are very confused.

I am making the point that we don't know how spirits are organized from intelligences therefore the assumption that only marriage between man and woman can result in offspring in eternity, is flawed.

IOW- if a hetero couple can have eternal offspring without earthstyle reproduction, then why would we make such a definitive claim that SSM will NEVER result in eternal offspring?

I'm arguing AGAINST the idea that eternal reproduction must work like earthly reproduction.

 

[Gray]

24 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Here are some official teachings on celestial procreation:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/04/the-father-and-the-son?lang=eng

Right. But teachings about celestial procreation don't seem to fit with the idea that we are co-eternal with God. I don't think there has been any official attempt to harmonize the two teachings. How can we have been "procreated" and yet co-eternal with God?

Edited June 8, 2016 by Gray

[Ahab]

18 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I'm arguing AGAINST the idea that eternal reproduction must work like earthly reproduction.

 

Yes and without any evidence that there is some other way to create people.

At least we can see what actually works.

You do realize we are still going to be either men or women after we are resurrected... don't you?

How would you go about creating children then?

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Procreation = mingling of "seed" with "sperm" (to reproduce our kind of being)

Is this a covert attempt to bring in homosexual creation as seed can refer to male or female and usually refers to male. 😳

 

[Ahab]

15 minutes ago, Gray said:

Right. But teachings about celestial procreation don't seem to fit with the idea that we are co-eternal with God. I don't think there has been any official attempt to harmonize the two teachings. How can we have been "procreated" and yet co-eternal with God?

You do realize children are reproductions of their parents,  don't you?  

We are him, and his wife, reproducing himself and herself.

We don't just pop into existence from out of nowhere or nothing.  We have always been a part of our parents... going back forever into eternity.

Life doesn't begin.  Life never had a beginning.  Life is perpetuated as each kind of being reproduces itself and we have always been the same kind of being as our parents.

Common sense is trying to tell you this.  Can't you hear it screaming at you right now???

 

[Eek!]

11 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I'm not familiar with the "organization" process. Are there any good sources that describe the godly process of organizing intelligences? Is there reason to believe sxual procreation would be required for organization? If there is, I'd like to hear them. Otherwise, I see no reason to believe that a SSM could not be just as valid as a traditional marriage.

I don't know how life and/or the universe all began.

A very interesting theory of how "organization" results in the creation of a more advanced being has been put forward by a writer named JJ Dewey.  He calls it the "Molecular Relationship" or "Molecular Order".  It's based on the idea that there are correspondences between the development of physical-world life and the spiritual-world life that preceded it, such that we can gain insight into the one by examining patterns in the other.  Just as individual units (atoms) can be organized to form a new and greater whole (a molecule), perhaps "intelligences" were organized into "spirits" in a broadly similar pattern.

The theory leaves the door open for same sex couples to be equal participants, but it would take me a while to explain it all.  And this brief description doesn't begin to do justice to the concept.

 

Edited June 9, 2016 by Eek!

[Mystery Meat]

All of this to try and justify SSM. We do not need to grasp at straws folks. We have historical, scriptural and spiritual precedent which establishes God's law here. We also have explicit decries of homosexuality as sin in just about every dispensation. The type of mental gymnastics to explain this away and justify sin makes the mental gymnastics TBMs are accused of look minuscule in comparison. I get that many of you are trying to force the politically correct and worldly philosophies of men (square peg) fit into Christianity, not to mention Mormon Doctrine (round hole). It is incompatible. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you will be able to come more fully unto Christ.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Mystery Meat