Intelligences Organized

[HappyJackWagon]

4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Yes and without any evidence that there is some other way to create people.

At least we can see what actually works.

You do realize we are still going to be either men or women after we are resurrected... don't you?

How would you go about creating children then?

That's kind of the whole point of this thread, AHAB. I don't know how it works, but I don't think anyone else does either. Believing it MUST work in heaven the same way it works on earth is understandable but not conclusive in any way. I don't know how God created the universe. I don't know how he created humans. I've never seen any revelation that outlines exactly how it works which is why I find it troubling that in an area where there is great uncertainty, that the church would make such dogmatic claims about SSM.

On a thread yesterday there was a discussion about how Elder Oaks admitted he didn't know how his marriages to his wives would work in the next life. If an apostle doesn't know how his marriage will work, why should I think he, or other church leaders, know how other peoples marriages will work in the eternities. The truth is we just don't know. I'm okay not knowing but I'm not okay with pretending like I do.

In an arena with so much uncertainty I think it is foolish to push a dogma that stigmatizes and condemns people for their behaviors that we can't be certain are even wrong.

[rodheadlee]

34 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

MF-yes, you are very confused.

I am making the point that we don't know how spirits are organized from intelligences therefore the assumption that only marriage between man and woman can result in offspring in eternity, is flawed.

IOW- if a hetero couple can have eternal offspring without earthstyle reproduction, then why would we make such a definitive claim that SSM will NEVER result in eternal offspring?

I'm arguing AGAINST the idea that eternal reproduction must work like earthly reproduction.

 

ALL HUMAN BEINGS—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

THE FIRST COMMANDMENT that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God’s commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.

https://www.lds.org/topics/family-proclamation?lang=eng&_r=1

[Jeanne]

32 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

MF-yes, you are very confused.

I am making the point that we don't know how spirits are organized from intelligences therefore the assumption that only marriage between man and woman can result in offspring in eternity, is flawed.

IOW- if a hetero couple can have eternal offspring without earthstyle reproduction, then why would we make such a definitive claim that SSM will NEVER result in eternal offspring?

I'm arguing AGAINST the idea that eternal reproduction must work like earthly reproduction.

 

I was thinking the same thing.  So much to me would make more sense in why God created spirits with the those genes that relate to same sex..I hope you all know what I mean..but maybe ..this sex thing doesn't have a whole lot to do with what we think it does.

[Gray]

7 minutes ago, Ahab said:

You do realize children are reproductions of their parents,  don't you?  

We are him, and his wife, reproducing himself and herself.

We don't just pop into existence from out of nowhere or nothing.  We have always been a part of our parents... going back forever into eternity.

Life doesn't begin.  Life never had a beginning.  Life is perpetuated as each kind of being reproduces itself and we have always been the same kind of being as our parents.

Common sense is trying to tell you this.  Can't you hear it screaming at you right now???

 

If you're referring to the conservation of mass, it's true that the particles that make up our bodies always existed. But our bodies did not.

In any case, the doctrine is that the essence of you always existed, not just as a bunch of particles, but as intelligence and personality. 

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Is this a covert attempt to bring in homosexual creation as seed can refer to male or female and usually refers to male. 😳

 

No, I was hoping you or somebody would make a mental connection to both men and women.

Not all living beings have "seeds" like ours which we commonly refer to as "eggs".  

And by "sperm" I was referring to what we men contribute to the process.

[Ahab]

8 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That's kind of the whole point of this thread, AHAB. I don't know how it works, but I don't think anyone else does either. Believing it MUST work in heaven the same way it works on earth is understandable but not conclusive in any way. I don't know how God created the universe. I don't know how he created humans. I've never seen any revelation that outlines exactly how it works which is why I find it troubling that in an area where there is great uncertainty, that the church would make such dogmatic claims about SSM.

On a thread yesterday there was a discussion about how Elder Oaks admitted he didn't know how his marriages to his wives would work in the next life. If an apostle doesn't know how his marriage will work, why should I think he, or other church leaders, know how other peoples marriages will work in the eternities. The truth is we just don't know. I'm okay not knowing but I'm not okay with pretending like I do.

In an arena with so much uncertainty I think it is foolish to push a dogma that stigmatizes and condemns people for their behaviors that we can't be certain are even wrong.

No, seriously, how would you go about creating or at least TRYING to create children when you and your wife are resurrected (supposing you are (still?) married then)?

Would you seriously need to go and ask our Father how he does it before you even tried or would you and your wife at least try to do it the way you think might actually work, again, based on previous "experiments" and a little common sense?

[Eek!]

1 minute ago, Ahab said:

No, seriously, how would you go about creating or at least TRYING to create children when you and your wife are resurrected (supposing you are (still?) married then)?

Would you seriously need to go and ask our Father how he does it before you even tried or would you and your wife at least try to do it the way you think might actually work, again, based on previous "experiments" and a little common sense?

I'd go to the library and check out a book using a fake ID card. 

[Ahab]

17 minutes ago, Gray said:

If you're referring to the conservation of mass, it's true that the particles that make up our bodies always existed. But our bodies did not.

In any case, the doctrine is that the essence of you always existed, not just as a bunch of particles, but as intelligence and personality. 

The essence of us, yes. Our intelligence, or our kind of intelligence, residing in our parents before they reproduced themselves as us with our own distinct spirit bodies.

To understand how it all works I suggest that you start with the realization that people/ personalities don't just spring into existence from out of nowhere or nothing.

People come from other people.

Always have, and always will.

[Gray]

1 minute ago, Ahab said:

The essence of us, yes. Our intelligence, or our kind of intelligence, residing in our parents before they reproduced themselves as us with our own distinct spirit bodies.

Except that our intelligence didn't reside in our parents before we were conceived. 

1 minute ago, Ahab said:

To understand how it all works I suggest that you start with the realization that people/ personalities don't just spring into existence from out of nowhere or nothing.

People come from other people.

Always have, and always will.

Our personalities are certainly influenced by the DNA that resides in our parents, but until that all comes together into new life, it's not intelligence or personality, just raw potential.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

MF-yes, you are very confused.

I am making the point that we don't know how spirits are organized from intelligences therefore the assumption that only marriage between man and woman can result in offspring in eternity, is flawed.

IOW- if a hetero couple can have eternal offspring without earthstyle reproduction, then why would we make such a definitive claim that SSM will NEVER result in eternal offspring?

I'm arguing AGAINST the idea that eternal reproduction must work like earthly reproduction.

 

Ah yes, you are right- my mistake.  I read this too fast:

Quote

 

In most discussions surrounding SSM, it is often taught/suggested that it is impossible for SSM to be an eternal union because clearly two individuals of the same gender would not be able to procreate. This, of course, presumes that creation of spirits in the next world will be similar to creation of human bodies in this world.

 

I interpreted the "this" to mean that you  saying that SSM requires that the creation of spirits in the next world to be similar to creation of human bodies, here.  I hooked the "this" to the wrong horse.  Apologies.  If there is ambiguity, I will find it, sometimes to my detriment.   I drive my poor wife crazy demanding "complete sentences" without "this" or "that" or "he" or "she" in cases where there are multiple thises and thats and hes and shes, because these words can mean anything remotely around what the discussion is about.  "Ah! so it was SALLY who told WAYNE.... yada yada"  

But MY point earlier was ultimately that SSM was wrong in ARGUING AGAINST those who think that bodies are created in both worlds the same way, because that argument is a red herring.

The fact that we don't know how celestial reproduction works means that there could be a zillion ways it happens, all of which are impossible to comprehend.  Yes theoretically asexual reproduction is one of the zillions of possibilities so technically that SSM argument works in a very narrow field of arguments against SSM becoming gospel doctrine

What I see is a key to all this is the Hebrew word "yada"- (no jokes about "yada yada"- now ) which speaks of intimate relationships as "KNOWING" one another and what it means to "know" a wife.  There are contexts here that clearly have nothing to do with sex:

From Strong's:

Quote

יָדַע yâdaʻ, yaw-dah'; a primitive root; to know (properly, to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively, instruction, designation, punishment, etc.):—acknowledge, acquaintance(-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, (un-) awares, can(-not), certainly, comprehend, consider, × could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be (ig-) norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have (knowledge), (be, make, make to be, make self) known, be learned, lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, ×prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have (understanding), × will be, wist, wit, wot.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H3045&t=KJV

And there's a lot more as well there- "to understand" and even to "know the Lord"- but it always seems to refer to knowing a person, including to "know I am the Lord your God".

So regardless how you look at it there are SO MANY ways of looking at this and "knowing" it, that it becomes pointless to even speculate and clearly for me at least, the whole argument about celestial reproduction- either way-  being based on the earthly, goes nowhere.

As I said, I think it is about "knowing" intimately the other half of humanity, and knowing the "other", not looking in a mirror of myself.

I know myself and what my physical and emotional needs are, I know how to serve myself and what I like.  What I lack is knowledge of the other half of humanity.  THAT is what I need to learn and love ALL of God's children.

I submit that homosexuality leaves out half of humanity to our intimate "knowledge"- in all senses, and THAT is what makes it wrong, and not celestial precisely because one's "knowledge" misses half of humanity

The other arguments just don't work for me.

Edited June 8, 2016 by mfbukowski

[HappyJackWagon]

32 minutes ago, Ahab said:

No, seriously, how would you go about creating or at least TRYING to create children when you and your wife are resurrected (supposing you are (still?) married then)?

Would you seriously need to go and ask our Father how he does it before you even tried or would you and your wife at least try to do it the way you think might actually work, again, based on previous "experiments" and a little common sense?

Ahab, I think you're missing part of the conversation. Again, the point is that "organizing" and "creating" may not be the same thing. You're only assuming it's the same.

If a hill of dirt already exists (like intelligences), I do not need to create the hill of dirt (intelligences). But I may organize it into something more useful or attractive or functional...whatever (like a spirit). I would not necessarily think I need to procreate the hill of dirt via a marital relationship

Instead, I may find a good bulldozer and get to work. If the bulldozer is the process, then gender doesn't really matter much for "organizing" spirits...I mean hills of dirt.

 

Edited June 8, 2016 by HappyJackWagon

[The Nehor]

21 minutes ago, Ahab said:

No, seriously, how would you go about creating or at least TRYING to create children when you and your wife are resurrected (supposing you are (still?) married then)?

Would you seriously need to go and ask our Father how he does it before you even tried or would you and your wife at least try to do it the way you think might actually work, again, based on previous "experiments" and a little common sense?

So if you have sex in the eternities as a resurrected being you create a incorporeal spirit child?

And the process is a randomization of physical DNA just like here?

Yeah, it is an explanation and there is a slight possibility it is true but......nah.

[Ahab]

8 minutes ago, Gray said:

Except that our intelligence didn't reside in our parents before we were conceived. 

I was talking about our "kind" of intelligence, or if the word intelligence is causing you problems think about what it is that makes any kind of being a particular kind of "sentient" being.  

And yes our kind of intelligence did reside in our parents before they conceived us as their children, otherwise we would not be the same kind of sentient being that they are.  

We are simply a reproduction of our parents.  What they are we are, speaking in terms of the kind of being we are.

Our spirit is the spirit or same kind of spirit as is the spirit of God our Father, and his parents too, going back into eternity. 

There was never a first one of us, in the general sense, and yet each one of us requires parents to reproduce themselves as individual spirit entities.  With our spirits being the embodiments of the essence of us, including our kind of intelligence which each of us develops however much we choose to develop it.

[Ahab]

18 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So if you have sex in the eternities as a resurrected being you create a incorporeal spirit child?

And the process is a randomization of physical DNA just like here?

Yeah, it is an explanation and there is a slight possibility it is true but......nah.

Randomization of physical DNA???

You're not thinking our parents could reproduce themselves as something other than the kind of being they are, are you?

And I'll bet they are able to know in advance whether their reproductions of themselves will be a boy spirit or a girl spirit and what color of eyes or hair each of them will have when it is born even better than we can currently know that of our brothers and sisters that we are bringing into this world.

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Randomization of physical DNA???

You're not thinking our parents could reproduce themselves as something other than the kind of being they are, are you?

And I'll bet they are able to know in advance whether their reproductions of themselves will be a boy spirit or a girl spirit and what color of eyes or hair each of them will have when it is born even better than we can currently know that of our brothers and sisters that we are bringing into this world.

So we are all designer spirit babies? Or random babies but they knew what we would be in advance?

I'm not convinced that reproduction works anything like it does here.

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

So we are all designer spirit babies? Or random babies but they knew what we would be in advance?

I'm not convinced that reproduction works anything like it does here.

Have fun experimenting, but I plan to keep doing what I know will continue to work based on the types of bodies my wife and I will still have.

Meanwhile, the best that any homosexual "couple" will be able to do is pray for some kind of miracle... because their bodies, alone, won't do it.

[The Nehor]

Just now, Ahab said:

Have fun experimenting, but I plan to keep doing what I know will continue to work based on the types of bodies my wife and I will still have.

Meanwhile, the best that any homosexual "couple" will be able to do is pray for some kind of miracle... because their bodies, alone, won't do it.

I think I am going to chat with God about how it works while you are trying to persuade your wife.

I don't doubt sex will still exist and possibly things even better but I do not think it will be the avenue of eternal reproduction.

If I shared my rather shaky pet theory of how spirit beings are created I would probably be called a blasphemer.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Eek! said:

I'd go to the library and check out a book using a fake ID card. 

Hmmmm

A little previous experience with that sort of thing?  

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I think I am going to chat with God about how it works while you are trying to persuade your wife.

Whatever it takes for you to figure out where babies come from.

At least you're probably intelligent enough to realize that pelicans and storks don't have anything to do with delivering babies... or at least not baby people.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Whatever it takes for you to figure out where babies come from.

At least you're probably intelligent enough to realize that pelicans and storks don't have anything to do with delivering babies... or at least not baby people.

I hope one day you can figure out that not everything in earth life is analogous to the eternities and the next life is not exactly like here with just nicer people and bleached robes.

See I can be condescending too!

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

Right. But teachings about celestial procreation don't seem to fit with the idea that we are co-eternal with God. I don't think there has been any official attempt to harmonize the two teachings. How can we have been "procreated" and yet co-eternal with God?

Hence the repeated statements from the prophets that those things have not been revealed, and we cannot know of them unless they are revealed. Trying to reconcile them without revelation is silly.

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

I hope one day you can figure out that not everything in earth life is analogous to the eternities and the next life is not exactly like here with just nicer people and bleached robes.

See I can be condescending too!

Actually,  everything is.  Who told you to believe everything here isn't analogous to everything there?

And the point of everything is to get a clean robe, however you choose to clean it.

Come on up here to where I am right now.

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Just ask the scientists when they create life in the Lab! It's going to happen. 

Exactly, which will be the best demonstration of intelligent design.  Gods know how to do it, and they use natural, if technical means to do it.  Intelligences (whatever they are) are first somehow embodied in spirit bodies (or organized into spirit bodies).  We are not told how that takes place, but it may well be a reproductive activity of some kind, naturally part of being of the genus and species of God.  As for the creation or organization of spirit bodies and physical bodies, Brigham Young said that 

Quote

Adam was not made out of a lump of clay, as we make a brick, nor was Eve taken as a rib--a bone--from his side. They came by generation. But woman, as the wife or mate of man, was a rib of man. She was taken from his side, in their glorified world, and brought by him to earth to be the mother of a race. These were father and mother of a world of spirits who had been born to them in heaven. These spirits had been waiting for the grand period of their probation, when they should have bodies or tabernacles, so that they might become, in the resurrection, like Gods.   Edward Tullidge, Women of Mormondom, 79.

Lorenzo Snow said:

Quote

Our spirit birth gave us godlike capabilities. We were born in the image of God our Father; He begot us like unto Himself. There is the nature of deity in the composition of our spiritual organization; in our spiritual birth our Father transmitted to us the capabilities, powers and faculties which He Himself possessed -- as much so as the child on its mother's bosom possesses, although in an undeveloped state, the faculties, powers, and susceptibilities of its parent. Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, p.4.

 

[TheSkepticChristian]

6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Exactly, which will be the best demonstration of intelligent design.  

However, a creator is not required if the universe is infinite. 

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

However, a creator is not required if the universe is infinite. 

The infinity of the universe (or multiverse) has nothing to do with whether there is a creator (or intelligent designer).  Those are completely separate issues.