Intelligences Organized

[HappyJackWagon]

10 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

No, sorry, life interrupted. I believe it was Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother that created us. If we were created in their image, it must have been so, otherwise they would have created Adam and Steve, not Adam and Eve. Each kind were created male and female. I know there are anomalies but for the most part it takes 2 of the opposite sex to Tango. If we were created in their image that would also include the reproductive process, IMHO.

It's a reasonable belief but is there any scriptural passage that refers to Heavenly Mother being involved in the creation of Adam and Eve? The temple doesn't mention her.

2 of the opposite gender to tango- Really? All evidence to the contrary. There's lots of tango happening all over the place.

So you are assuming we are created in the image of HM & HF and therefore concluding that eternal reproduction must also work like earthly reproduction.  Lots of assuming going on around here

 

[rodheadlee]

5 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Sure it would.  Just because there may be both male and female creators does not mean that they have to be eternally married to each other in order to create or organize intelligence in their own image.

.

My line of thinking is backed up by the Proclimation of the Family, yours is not. You can find loopholes to drive your truck through but you will be severely disappointed.

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I struggle with this because on one hand I have to acknowledge that there are so many things I don't know (and that the church doesn't claim to know), or even have much of a clue about, yet in the face of such uncertainty there is pervasive dogma presented as if the church has all the answers. It can't be both. Greater humility is needed. The dogma needs to be dialed down. With that, the judgment will naturally be dialed down as well.

Then there is my favorite answer? "We will know when we die".  It is important before any judgement (IMO) that we realize..we don't know and that includes the church.

[ALarson]

Just now, rodheadlee said:

My line of thinking is backed up by the Proclimation of the Family, yours is not. You can find loopholes to drive your truck through but you will be severely disappointed.

Again, it's more speculation and making choices regarding what or who you want to believe.  The truth is we just do not know.  And, you may be the one who is severely disappointed.  

Where in scripture does it state that Heavenly Mother was involved in the creation of Adam & Eve in partnership with Heavenly Father?

[Bernard Gui]

12 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

It's a reasonable belief but is there any scriptural passage that refers to Heavenly Mother being involved in the creation of Adam and Eve? The temple doesn't mention her.

2 of the opposite gender to tango- Really? All evidence to the contrary. There's lots of tango happening all over the place.

So you are assuming we are created in the image of HM & HF and therefore concluding that eternal reproduction must also work like earthly reproduction.  Lots of assuming going on around here

 

Adam, our first progenitor, “the first man,” was, like Christ, a preexistent spirit, and like Christ he took upon him an appropriate body, the body of a man, and so became a “living soul.” The doctrine of the preexistence—revealed so plainly, particularly in latter days—pours a wonderful flood of light upon the otherwise mysterious problem of man’s origin. It shows that man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal body to undergo an experience in mortality. It teaches that all men existed in the spirit before any man existed in the flesh and that all who have inhabited the earth since Adam have taken bodies and become souls in like manner.

It is held by some that Adam was not the first man upon this earth and that the original human being was a development from lower orders of the animal creation. These, however, are the theories of men. The word of the Lord declared that Adam was “the first man of all men” (Moses 1:34), and we are therefore in duty bound to regard him as the primal parent of our race. It was shown to the brother of Jared that all men were created in the beginning after the image of God; whether we take this to mean the spirit or the body, or both, it commits us to the same conclusion: Man began life as a human being, in the likeness of our Heavenly Father.

True it is that the body of man enters upon its career as a tiny germ embryo, which becomes an infant, quickened at a certain stage by the spirit whose tabernacle it is, and the child, after being born, develops into a man. There is nothing in this, however, to indicate that the original man, the first of our race, began life as anything less than a man, or less than the human germ or embryo that becomes a man.

Man, by searching, cannot find out God. Never, unaided, will he discover the truth about the beginning of human life. The Lord must reveal Himself or remain unrevealed; and the same is true of the facts relating to the origin of Adam’s race—God alone can reveal them. Some of these facts, however, are already known, and what has been made known it is our duty to receive and retain.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, basing its belief on divine revelation, ancient and modern, proclaims man to be the direct and lineal offspring of Deity. God Himself is an exalted man, perfected, enthroned, and supreme. By His almighty power He organized the earth and all that it contains, from spirit and element, which exist coeternally with Himself. He formed every plant that grows and every animal that breathes, each after its own kind, spiritually and temporally—“that which is spiritual being in the likeness of that which is temporal, and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual.” He made the tadpole and the ape, the lion and the elephant, but He did not make them in His own image, nor endow them with godlike reason and intelligence. Nevertheless, the whole animal creation will be perfected and perpetuated in the Hereafter, each class in its “distinct order or sphere,” and will enjoy “eternal felicity.” That fact has been made plain in this dispensation (see D&C 77:3).

Man is the child of God, formed in the divine image and endowed with divine attributes, and even as the infant son of an earthly father and mother is capable in due time of becoming a man, so the undeveloped offspring of celestial parentage is capable, by experience through ages and aeons, of evolving into a God.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

In most discussions surrounding SSM, it is often taught/suggested that it is impossible for SSM to be an eternal union because clearly two individuals of the same gender would not be able to procreate. This, of course, presumes that creation of spirits in the next world will be similar to creation of human bodies in this world.

Yet, in Abraham we learn that intelligences are eternal and that God "organized" the intelligences

I'm not familiar with the "organization" process. Are there any good sources that describe the godly process of organizing intelligences? Is there reason to believe sxual procreation would be required for organization? If there is, I'd like to hear them. Otherwise, I see no reason to believe that a SSM could not be just as valid as a traditional marriage.

*Bonus Question*

Jesus was "like unto God" in the pre-mortal world. Many Christians reject Mormons on the basis of a low-Christology because we often portray Jesus as growing into godhood. So my question is, was Jesus God in the pre-mortal world or did he later become God?

Let's just say that to even THINK that that passage and interpretation in English captures the scientifically verifiable method for organizing intelligences, is a.........little deficient.  Talk about creating an anthropomorphic God!  

We are theomorphic humans, there is no anthropomorphic God. "Reproduction" is, I am sure, a paltry and degraded version somehow of the way spirits are organized, so put that out of your head- that notion is useless!

In other words, anybody's guess is as good as anybody else's and anything about this is total speculation and ...... a little deficient.

I personally hold the divine pair view, yin and yang etc.  http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/2014-fairmormon-conference/womans-church

Reproduction has nothing to do with it- it is Unity with the other half of humanity that is the point

To "know" (in every sense) only half of humanity, leaves half of humanity out of one's knowledge.  That is called a tautology.   How a god could only understand half his children is beyond my understanding.

There is a reason the Bible uses "know" in that way and sense.

Edited June 8, 2016 by mfbukowski

[rodheadlee]

8 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Again, it's more speculation and making choices regarding what or who you want to believe.  The truth is we just do not know.  And, you may be the one who is severely disappointed.  

Where in scripture does it state that Heavenly Mother was involved in the creation of Adam & Eve in partnership with Heavenly Father?

I won't be disappointed because it won't affect me and my wife, either way.

[ALarson]

1 minute ago, rodheadlee said:

I won't be disappointed because it won't affect me and my wife, either way.

Then none of us will be disappointed if we follow that reasoning  

 

[Bernard Gui]

12 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Again, it's more speculation and making choices regarding what or who you want to believe.  The truth is we just do not know.  And, you may be the one who is severely disappointed.  

Where in scripture does it state that Heavenly Mother was involved in the creation of Adam & Eve in partnership with Heavenly Father?

Adam, our first progenitor, “the first man,” was, like Christ, a preexistent spirit, and like Christ he took upon him an appropriate body, the body of a man, and so became a “living soul.” The doctrine of the preexistence—revealed so plainly, particularly in latter days—pours a wonderful flood of light upon the otherwise mysterious problem of man’s origin. It shows that man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal body to undergo an experience in mortality. It teaches that all men existed in the spirit before any man existed in the flesh and that all who have inhabited the earth since Adam have taken bodies and become souls in like manner.

[Bernard Gui]

11 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Let's just say that to even THINK that that passage and interpretation in English captures the scientifically verifiable method for organizing intelligences, is a.........little deficient.  Talk about creating an anthropomorphic God!  

We are theomorphic humans, there is no anthropomorphic God. "Reproduction" is, I am sure, a paltry and degraded version somehow of the way spirits are organized, so put that out of your head- that notion is useless!

In other words, anybody's guess is as good as anybody else's and anything about this is total speculation and ...... a little deficient.

I personally hold the divine pair view, yin and yang etc.  http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/2014-fairmormon-conference/womans-church

Reproduction has nothing to do with it- it is Unity with the other half of humanity that is the point

To "know" (in every sense) only half of humanity, leaves half of humanity out of one's knowledge.  That is called a tautology.   How a god could only understand half his children is beyond my understanding.

There is a reason the Bible uses "know" in that way and sense.

Man, by searching, cannot find out God. Never, unaided, will he discover the truth about the beginning of human life. The Lord must reveal Himself or remain unrevealed; and the same is true of the facts relating to the origin of Adam’s race—God alone can reveal them. Some of these facts, however, are already known, and what has been made known it is our duty to receive and retain.

 

[ALarson]

7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Adam, our first progenitor, “the first man,” was, like Christ, a preexistent spirit, and like Christ he took upon him an appropriate body, the body of a man, and so became a “living soul.” The doctrine of the preexistence—revealed so plainly, particularly in latter days—pours a wonderful flood of light upon the otherwise mysterious problem of man’s origin. It shows that man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal body to undergo an experience in mortality. It teaches that all men existed in the spirit before any man existed in the flesh and that all who have inhabited the earth since Adam have taken bodies and become souls in like manner.

Is this a quote from someone else or is it from you? 

I agree with much of it (it mirrors my beliefs), but I also have to admit that we simply do not know how we were created.  Even what you wrote above is speculation and one needs to trust what someone else taught or wrote regarding creation.   We can believe their words are true or have faith that they are, but we simply do not know how we were created.

.

Edited June 8, 2016 by ALarson

[Bernard Gui]

1 minute ago, ALarson said:

Is this a quote from someone else or is it from you? 

I agree with much of it (it mirrors my beliefs), but I also have to admit that we simply do not know how we were created.  Even what you wrote above is speculation and one needs to trust what someone else has taught or written regarding this.  

It is from the First Presidency declaration I quoted in full in a previous post. If you don't accept the First Presidency as authoritative, then there is nothing to discuss.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

In most discussions surrounding SSM, it is often taught/suggested that it is impossible for SSM to be an eternal union because clearly two individuals of the same gender would not be able to procreate. This, of course, presumes that creation of spirits in the next world will be similar to creation of human bodies in this world.

Yet, in Abraham we learn that intelligences are eternal and that God "organized" the intelligences

I'm not familiar with the "organization" process. Are there any good sources that describe the godly process of organizing intelligences? Is there reason to believe sxual procreation would be required for organization? If there is, I'd like to hear them. Otherwise, I see no reason to believe that a SSM could not be just as valid as a traditional marriage.

*Bonus Question*

Jesus was "like unto God" in the pre-mortal world. Many Christians reject Mormons on the basis of a low-Christology because we often portray Jesus as growing into godhood. So my question is, was Jesus God in the pre-mortal world or did he later become God?

I think Jesus was like unto and with God the Father, acting in the God roles of the Word or Messenger and Creator in the pre-mortal world (D&C 93:7-10). We were all there with Him too, but He was the most like unto God the Father (Abraham 3:17-19; 24-25) and thus a God to us.

Intelligence is organized in many stages. What we call procreation is merely the organization of our world’s mortal element with “separably connected” spirit, which is intelligence. As mortal beings we engage in an aspect and phase of organizing intelligences. Every organized intelligence is invited to receive further organization, and for this purpose we come to earth, receive covenants, are resurrected, etc.

However intelligences are organized in the various estates (we see it as physical procreation in this world, the “continuation of the seeds” in the next), the process requires a partner of each gender (husband and wife) as set forth in D&C 132. “The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife [mortally and eternally]” which roles are tied to their respective gender, “an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.” Our premortal estate is a product of our Heavenly Parents’ continuation of the seeds and this pattern of marriage continues.

Where “God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation [the sacred powers of organizing intelligences] are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife,” only the D&C 132 type of marriage will do.

[ALarson]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

It is from the First Presidency declaration I quoted in full in a previous post. If you don't accept the First Presidency as authoritative, then there is nothing to discuss.

I don't have to agree with all that they state.  You must have missed where I did state that it mirrors my beliefs.

This still does not change the fact that we do not "know" how we were created or how intelligence is organized.

[CV75]

4 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I don't have to agree with all that they state.  You must have missed where I did state that it mirrors my beliefs.

This still does not change the fact that we do not "know" how we were created or how intelligence is organized.

We do know a little bit of how intelligence is organized. We do it when we have babies. Not the most incipient organization, but a phase where intelligence is still being organized by connecting it with the element of this world, and further organizing it with experience, covenants, a resurrection, etc. Such organization, however it is manifest at whatever stage, required the union of the two genders. So ssm is a sham in this regard.

[JLHPROF]

The glory of God is intelligence, or truth and light combined.

There is a reason we were labeled as intelligences before we became spirit children.
How are we God's glory?
How does truth and light enter a spirit body?

[JLHPROF]

46 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

It is from the First Presidency declaration I quoted in full in a previous post. If you don't accept the First Presidency as authoritative, then there is nothing to discuss.

Depends which First Presidency.

The 1850s First Presidency would not have agreed with that declaration at all.  And I'd love to see a record of or reference to the revelation that was received to allow the more recent First Presidency to change the doctrine.

Edited June 8, 2016 by JLHPROF

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

It's a reasonable belief but is there any scriptural passage that refers to Heavenly Mother being involved in the creation of Adam and Eve? The temple doesn't mention her.

There's a reason for that too. 

[Mystery Meat]

[ALarson]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

We do know a little bit of how intelligence is organized. We do it when we have babies.

This is physical creation.  We do not know how spiritual creation or organization of intelligence takes place or if it's even comparable to physically procreating.  I don't believe we are creating an "intelligence" when we have babies, do you?  I believe that the spirit or intelligence was already created prior to this. 

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Not the most incipient organization, but a phase where intelligence is still being organized by connecting it with the element of this world, and further organizing it with experience, covenants, a resurrection, etc. Such organization, however it is manifest at whatever stage, required the union of the two genders. 

You do not know that organization of intelligence "required the union of two genders".   

 

Edited June 8, 2016 by ALarson

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, ALarson said:

This is physical creation.  We do not know how spiritual creation or organization of intelligence takes place or if it's even comparable to physically procreating.  I don't believe we are creating an "intelligence" when we have babies, do you?  I believe that was already created prior to that. 

You do not know that organization of intelligence "required the union of two genders".   

Only by the knowledge that the things of earth are in the image of things in heaven.

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Let's just say that to even THINK that that passage and interpretation in English captures the scientifically verifiable method for organizing intelligences, is a.........little deficient.  Talk about creating an anthropomorphic God!  

We are theomorphic humans, there is no anthropomorphic God. "Reproduction" is, I am sure, a paltry and degraded version somehow of the way spirits are organized, so put that out of your head- that notion is useless!

In other words, anybody's guess is as good as anybody else's and anything about this is total speculation and ...... a little deficient.

I personally hold the divine pair view, yin and yang etc.  http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/2014-fairmormon-conference/womans-church

Reproduction has nothing to do with it- it is Unity with the other half of humanity that is the point

To "know" (in every sense) only half of humanity, leaves half of humanity out of one's knowledge.  That is called a tautology.   How a god could only understand half his children is beyond my understanding.

There is a reason the Bible uses "know" in that way and sense.

Anybody's guess is right. We agree on that.

Quote

CV75- We do know a little bit of how intelligence is organized. We do it when we have babies. Not the most incipient organization, but a phase where intelligence is still being organized by connecting it with the element of this world, and further organizing it with experience, covenants, a resurrection, etc. Such organization, however it is manifest at whatever stage, required the union of the two genders. So ssm is a sham in this regard.

Your theory of evolving intelligence is good but I don't see it stating anything definitive about the organization of intelligence into spirit children of God. It certainly doesn't address the issue of spirit procreation between opposite gendered gods. That's an assumption.

There seems to be a lot of reverse engineering going on here. Just because something occurs on earth (ie procreation) doesn't mean it is an absolute pattern for what happened previously in the pre-mortal world. I understand the strong desire to assume that our experience reflects God's but that seems simplistic. It's a mechanism to help us feel like we have a grasp on the divine.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

I don't have to agree with all that they state.  You must have missed where I did state that it mirrors my beliefs.

This still does not change the fact that we do not "know" how we were created or how intelligence is organized.

Man, by searching, cannot find out God. Never, unaided, will he discover the truth about the beginning of human life. The Lord must reveal Himself or remain unrevealed; and the same is true of the facts relating to the origin of Adam’s race—God alone can reveal them. Some of these facts, however, are already known, and what has been made known it is our duty to receive and retain.

[ALarson]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Only by the knowledge that the things of earth are in the image of things in heaven.

That's possible.  You can believe this, but we don't know.  I think you should use the word "faith" or "belief" rather than "knowledge".

Do you believe spirits will be created in the same manner that physical bodies are created here on earth (sexual relations)?

.

Edited June 8, 2016 by ALarson

[JLHPROF]

Just now, ALarson said:

That's possible.  You can believe this, but we don't know.

Do you believe spirits will be created in the same manner that physical bodies are created here on earth (sexual relations)?

Brigham Young did.  I have no reason to doubt him that has any basis in scripture.

Until someone in authority is given different light I'll go with the only word that came through God's mouthpiece.