Can an active member support a communist party in his country?

[Damien the Leper]

8 hours ago, BCSpace said:

It is impossible for a believer to ignore discussion of the doctrine when he knows it's true.  Just look at mfbukowski who swore in his wrath that he was "out of here", and yet he keeps popping back in....

As for paradigms, LDS doctrine is true across all paradigms.  One cannot escape it.

Says who? Don't project anything onto God. He/she doesn't deserve such disrespect.

[JAHS]

19 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I did.

Yep. You're one of the few. 

[RevTestament]

10 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

But the reality is that this is now the platform of the Communist Party USA

Sounds to me like they have become Democrats, at least the way the Democrat party is now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_USA#Bill_of_Rights_socialism

Them there is fightin words 

[jkwilliams]

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Disgusting pure bigotry.

On an LDS board.  Disgusting.  Ignoring the temple recommend interviews for guilt by association.

I just cannot believe it.  I could not even approach my bishop for a recommend if I believed these things.  It is pure ignorance.

"Inevitable conclusion".  Disgusting.  No judgement no weighing of actual opinions- just "inevitable conclusion".  No place in the gospel

Burn the witches without a trial.  The "inevitable conclusion" has been reached.

I've never understood why some people equate the LDS gospel with an Ayn Rand-style vision of free-market, western capitalism. In a lot of countries, such a system is not one of the options.  In Latin America, capitalism as we in North America understand it does not exist.

[Robert F. Smith]

58 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I did. As I said, other than a brief conversation that illustrated our different perspectives, it simply wasn't an issue for me and my companion. Given his shock at my questioning his politics, I assume no one had ever asked him before and it hadn't been an issue. 

And this wasn't just a left-leaning party but one urging the abolition of capitalism by any means possible. 

As the late Eugene England pointed out long ago in a book review, “the divine economic order is not democratic capitalism, but theocratic socialism,” and he observed that today’s capitalistic Mormons were in the 19th century “dangerously anticapitalistic utopians.”  England in Sunstone Review, 2/10 (Oct 1982):1,25-27; cf. Richard L. Bushman, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling (2005), 105, 154-155.

[RevTestament]

11 hours ago, JAHS said:

"Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?" 

I didn't know that was a standard to be a member of the church...

I have invited smokers to church...the horror...

[mfbukowski]

7 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I didn't know that was a standard to be a member of the church...

I have invited smokers to church...the horror...

Just stay away from Pharisees and publicans and you will be fine.

[phaedrus ut]

The First Presidency has already spoken on this topic.  And as far as I know this statement hasn't been revoked. 

 

 

Quote

 

With great regret we learn from credible sources, governmental and others, that a few Church members are joining directly or indirectly, the Communists and are taking part in their activities.

The Church does not interfere, and has no intention of trying to interfere, with the fullest and freest exercise of the political franchise of its members, under and within our Constitution which the Lord declared:

“I established by the hands of wise men who I raised up unto this very purpose,” (D&C 101:80) and which, as to the principles therefore, the Prophet, dedicating the Kirtland Temple, prayed should be “established forever.” (D&C 109:54) But communism is not a political party nor a political plan under the Constitution; it is a system of government that is the opposite of our constitutional government, and it would be necessary to destroy our government before communism could be set up in the United States.

Since communism, established, would destroy our American Constitutional government, to support Communism treasonable to our free institutions, and no patriotic American citizen may become either a Communist or supporter of Communism.

To our Church members we say: Communism is not the United Order, and bears only the most superficial resemblance thereto; Communism is based upon intolerance and force, the United Order upon love and freedom of conscience and action; Communism involves forceful despoliation and confiscation, the United Order voluntary consecration and sacrifice.

Communists cannot establish the United Order, nor will Communism bring it about. The United Order will be established by the Lord in His own due time and in accordance with the regular prescribed order of the Church. Furthermore, it is charged by universal report, which is not successfully contradicted or disproved, that Communism undertakes to control, if not indeed to proscribe the religion life of the people living within its jurisdiction, and that it even reaches it hand into the sanctity of the family circle itself, disrupting the normal relationship of parent and child, all in a manner unknown and unsanctioned under the Constitutional guarantees under which we in America live. Such interference would be contrary to the fundamental precepts of the Gospel and to the teachings and order of the Church.

Communism thus being hostile to loyal American citizenship and incompatible with true Church membership, of necessity no loyal American citizen and no faithful Church member can be a Communist.

We call upon all Church members completely to eschew Communism. The safety of our divinely inspired Constitutional government and welfare of our Church imperatively demand that Communism shall have no place in America.

Signed,
Heber J. Grant
J. Reuben Clark
David O. McKay

(First Presidency, “Warning to Church Members,” July 3, 1936, Improvement Era 39, no. 8 (August 1936)

 

 

Phaedrus 

[RevTestament]

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Just stay away from Pharisees and publicans and you will be fine.

One came, and reactivated. He got extended a calling to help clean once he quit smoking...

[JAHS]

4 minutes ago, phaedrus ut said:

The First Presidency has already spoken on this topic.  And as far as I know this statement hasn't been revoked. 

 

 

 

Phaedrus 

I have seen that statement but that was 80 years ago. Here's another one from President Benson 37 years ago:

In 1979 Ezra Taft Benson said:
"Communism introduced into the world a substitute for true religion. It is a counterfeit of the gospel plan. The false prophets of Communism predict a utopian society. This, they proclaim, will only be brought about as capitalism and free enterprise are overthrown, private property abolished, the family as a social unit eliminated, all classes abolished, all governments overthrown, and a communal ownership of property in a classless, stateless society established. 
We must not tolerate accommodation with or appeasement toward the false system of Communism. We must demand of our elected officials that we not only resist Communism, but that we will take every measure to prevent its intrusion into this hemisphere. It is vital that we invoke the Monroe Doctrine."  (A Witness and a Warning, Oct 1979)

The question is, is communism in other hemispheres today different from the one President Benson warns us about? 

[Danzo]

11 hours ago, JAHS said:

"Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?" 

There were a lot of warnings from church leaders to the members back in the 30's to the 70's about communism. I may be wrong, but why do you think I am wrong?  That's what I am trying to find out.

I think that the Republican party has many teachings and practices  that are contrary to those accepted by the church.

The Democrat party as well.

I imagine that parties in other countries also have a mix of good and bad teachings.

There is no such thing as a pure political party.

I am a Republican, but I am fully aware that there are many aspects of the party that are contrary to the church teachings, I try my best to emphasis the good principles of the party and work against the bad ones.

I hope the Democrats, the Liberals, Tories, Communists, Democratic Socialists, etc. are doing the same. 

It would be sad if good men abandoned the political process to leave the parties in the hands of bad men.

Thus I hope more good men joining the Democratic party, Communist parties, etc. 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

12 hours ago, canard78 said:

False comparison. Or perhaps you weren't making a comparison and simply asking a fresh question.

To the OP. Yes, of course they can. 

Not so very false.

Both parties have a history of sponsoring oppressive, murderous, despotic regimes.

But, you say, not all communist parties have done that.

To which I respond: Not all neo-Nazi parties have done that either.

(For the record, I approve of neither Communism nor neo-Naziism.)

[Damien the Leper]

Time for the Party! Woot woot!

@mfbukowski, Angela Davis is a powerhouse. Her books are amazing.

 

[jkwilliams]

29 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Not so very false.

Both parties have a history of sponsoring oppressive, murderous, despotic regimes.

But, you say, not all communist parties have done that.

To which I respond: Not all neo-Nazi parties have done that either.

(For the record, I approve of neither Communism nor neo-Naziism.)

Both the Democrats and the Republicans have a history of sponsoring oppressive, murderous, despotic regimes. Are you suggesting we can't participate in either of these parties?

[Buckeye]

16 hours ago, JAHS said:

Someone has asked me a question about holding a temple recommend and being a supporter of the Brazilian communist party. I know there are different forms of communism out there in the world and how strong a presence communism is in certain countries. I know nothing about the communist party in Brasil. My gut feeling is to say, of course you can not support the communist party and hold a temple recommend or even be a member of the church.  Is communism in any country always contrary to the teachings of the Church? Can someone support such a party in their home country and be a Church member in good standing? My answer is, No. Am I wrong?

 

Interestingly enough, (then current) LDS church spokesman Michael Ottersn briefly addressed this question in his 2015 remarks at the FAIRMORMON conference:

Quote

Others seem to want to reshape the Church into whatever the latest politically correct social convention says it should be. Consequently, much internal teaching needs to be done on this topic, especially among our youth and millennial members — i.e. young adults. Wisely, the Brethren will chart a course that adheres to the doctrine of the Church while emulating Christ’s inclusiveness and love for all people.

Can members have their own views on this topic and still stay faithful to the Church? That’s a question we hear often, and it arises from a number of different scenarios. Can a member be a Democrat and a good Mormon? That one makes me smile, because if the members who ask it could travel to some countries of the world and meet faithful members of the Church who belong to their national communist parties I fear their blood pressure might be permanently damaged. Can I believe in women’s rights and be a good Mormon? Can I think that our hymnals might benefit from a good revision? If I sometimes think that every minute of our three-hour block isn’t entirely inspirational, am I on the road to apostasy?

I don’t mean to be flippant, because I know that some questions are more important than others. All I can tell you is how I approach this subject personally. I have never found the Church to be an intellectual straitjacket. We have an enormously diverse membership. I have spent time with members of the Church on every continent where we have units. One of the most thrilling aspects to being a Latter-day Saint is the sense that we belong to a diverse but unified global family. Because I’m British, I admittedly joke about the French from time to time – it’s kind of an obligatory thing that goes with British citizenship. (Actually, I’ve never forgiven them for backing the wrong side in the American Revolutionary War.) And, of course, the French respond in kind about the English. But if I’m on a plane and sitting next to a French Latter-day Saint, I feel an immediate bond. National and cultural differences evaporate. I have far more in common with that person than with one of my own non-LDS countrymen, even one my own age from my hometown or school. As a Latter-day Saint, I know instantly that my newly met French acquaintance and I share the most important core values and experiences, and we have the same broad aspirations for this life and the next. I am content to rest on the assurance that as Latter-day Saints we are, in reality, no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens in a kingdom that traverses all national boundaries and cultures.

Am I interested in making sure that my French seat companion comports precisely with my views in every nuanced interpretation of how to live his or her life? Do I insist that we both must be on exactly the same point on our spiritual journey? Or do I, like the Lord, allow room for personal interpretation, growth and understanding?

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/full-transcript-michael-otterson-address-at-fair-mormon-conference  (emphasis added).

It appears clear that today - regardless of what past leaders taught - the LDS church is fine with members being communists. I recommend reading the entire address. It's really very good.

PS: I'm surprised that Scott didn't point you to this address since (I believe) he covered the conference. 

[Buckeye]

On a personal note, I'm currently reading my kids Animal Farm as a bedtime story. They know its an allegory for Russian communism. We're just into the book; so far the farm is running well and the pigs haven't turned on each other yet (at least explicitly). So at this point my kids are under the stark impression that communism is a really good thing. I better hurry up our reading before Sunday or they may say something that gets us kicked out of the ward. 

Edited May 18, 2016 by Buckeye

[JAHS]

14 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

Interestingly enough, (then current) LDS church spokesman Michael Ottersn briefly addressed this question in his 2015 remarks at the FAIRMORMON conference:

Quote

Others seem to want to reshape the Church into whatever the latest politically correct social convention says it should be. Consequently, much internal teaching needs to be done on this topic, especially among our youth and millennial members — i.e. young adults. Wisely, the Brethren will chart a course that adheres to the doctrine of the Church while emulating Christ’s inclusiveness and love for all people.

Can members have their own views on this topic and still stay faithful to the Church? That’s a question we hear often, and it arises from a number of different scenarios. Can a member be a Democrat and a good Mormon? That one makes me smile, because if the members who ask it could travel to some countries of the world and meet faithful members of the Church who belong to their national communist parties I fear their blood pressure might be permanently damaged. Can I believe in women’s rights and be a good Mormon? Can I think that our hymnals might benefit from a good revision? If I sometimes think that every minute of our three-hour block isn’t entirely inspirational, am I on the road to apostasy?

I don’t mean to be flippant, because I know that some questions are more important than others. All I can tell you is how I approach this subject personally. I have never found the Church to be an intellectual straitjacket. We have an enormously diverse membership. I have spent time with members of the Church on every continent where we have units. One of the most thrilling aspects to being a Latter-day Saint is the sense that we belong to a diverse but unified global family. Because I’m British, I admittedly joke about the French from time to time – it’s kind of an obligatory thing that goes with British citizenship. (Actually, I’ve never forgiven them for backing the wrong side in the American Revolutionary War.) And, of course, the French respond in kind about the English. But if I’m on a plane and sitting next to a French Latter-day Saint, I feel an immediate bond. National and cultural differences evaporate. I have far more in common with that person than with one of my own non-LDS countrymen, even one my own age from my hometown or school. As a Latter-day Saint, I know instantly that my newly met French acquaintance and I share the most important core values and experiences, and we have the same broad aspirations for this life and the next. I am content to rest on the assurance that as Latter-day Saints we are, in reality, no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens in a kingdom that traverses all national boundaries and cultures.

Am I interested in making sure that my French seat companion comports precisely with my views in every nuanced interpretation of how to live his or her life? Do I insist that we both must be on exactly the same point on our spiritual journey? Or do I, like the Lord, allow room for personal interpretation, growth and understanding?

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/full-transcript-michael-otterson-address-at-fair-mormon-conference  (emphasis added).

It appears clear that today - regardless of what past leaders taught - the LDS church is fine with members being communists. I recommend reading the entire address. It's really very good.

PS: I'm surprised that Scott didn't point you to this address since (I believe) he covered the conference. 

Thanks. This is the kind of info I am looking for. We just don't hear much bout members in other countries and How they find a way to live as active members within the political systems of their home countries.

[jkwilliams]

13 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Thanks. This is the kind of info I am looking for. We just don't hear much bout members in other countries and How they find a way to live as active members within the political systems of their home countries.

Again, I think this reflects North American culture in that we tend to think of communists as "godless" and hostile to American values and economic principles. People in other countries don't share that cultural perspective.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Valentinus said:

Time for the Party! Woot woot!

@mfbukowski, Angela Davis is a powerhouse. Her books are amazing.

 

At one time in my life I thought so too.

I got better.  

She is actually a very nice person, who happened to buy some guns used to kill a judge a day or two after she bought them during a jail break.   Of course they were "stolen" by people close to her, without her knowledge.

But as far as communism--  I simply do not trust the government.  Imagine health care brought to you by the TSA or post office. Pure socialism without capitalistic elements has not worked anywhere.  The European "eastern block" is proof.

Of course all will tell you "Yes but that was not Communism as it is supposed to be..." but the reality is that no one can GET to "Communism as it is supposed to be" without, as Lenin said, breaking a few eggs to make an omelette.  And that process itself means goose stepping over human rights to get to "perfection"

European socialism seems to be what the model has become which is of course irrelevant to the arguments provided here about the mythic "communism" which has never existed on earth.  I have been in the eastern block and those who have lived under attempted communism  simply laugh at the old days.  Lines for everything, food and otherwise.  Without incentives, nobody produces, nobody transports, nobody opens stores, and the bottom line is that nobody cares.

Zion will be voluntary and spirit driven and that is the difference that church critics do not understand.

There are nostalgic cafes in Poland that serve milk products only, since that was the only protein available in the "bad old days".https://www.ricksteves.com/watch-read-listen/read/articles/nostalgia-in-a-polish-milk-bar after standing in endless lines.  It is a combination of nostalgia and schadenfreude for the old times of communism.  Communism in eastern Europe is now seen as "camp" - perhaps the way we would now lampoon hippies or something similar.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museum_of_Communism,_Czech_Republic

It just doesn't work!  Human beings need incentives to work, other than facing "re-education" camps for those who are politically incorrect.  It is antithetical to being human, in my opinion.

I don't understand why those who are among the most acquainted with bureaucracy and dealing with it on a daily basis - students and faculty- would actually advocate national bureaucracies for routine matters, but of course that is what you see on campuses everywhere, even of course BYU.  Many LDS "intellectuals" back Bernie Sanders.  I do not understand it.  I guess I am just too stupid to understand how stupid conservatives are.

I know I am not smart enough to know what is best for everyone else and decide for them what they need to figure it out.   I am just not elitist enough to presume that.  I will be Papa to my family, but am not good at making decisions for people I have never met.

 

Edited May 18, 2016 by mfbukowski

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

Both the Democrats and the Republicans have a history of sponsoring oppressive, murderous, despotic regimes. Are you suggesting we can't participate in either of these parties?

This is not even intelligible, let alone clever.

 

[Buckeye]

14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

At one time in my life I thought so too.

I got better.  

She is actually a very nice person, who happened to buy some guns used to kill a judge a day or two after she bought them during a jail break.   Of course they were "stolen" by people close to her, without her knowledge.

But as far as communism--  I simply do not trust the government.  Imagine health care brought to you by the TSA or post office. Pure socialism without capitalistic elements has not worked anywhere.  The European "eastern block" is proof.

Of course all will tell you "Yes but that was not Communism as it is supposed to be..." but the reality is that no one can GET to "Communism as it is supposed to be" without, as Lenin said, breaking a few eggs to make an omelette.  And that process itself means goose stepping over human rights to get to "perfection"

European socialism seems to be what the model has become which is of course irrelevant to the arguments provided here about the mythic "communism" which has never existed on earth.  I have been in the eastern block and those who have lived under attempted communism  simply laugh at the old days.  Lines for everything, food and otherwise.  Without incentives, nobody produces, nobody transports, nobody opens stores, and the bottom line is that nobody cares.

Zion will be voluntary and spirit driven and that is the difference that church critics do not understand.

There are nostalgic cafes in Poland that serve milk products only, since that was the only protein available in the "bad old days".https://www.ricksteves.com/watch-read-listen/read/articles/nostalgia-in-a-polish-milk-bar after standing in endless lines.  It is a combination of nostalgia and schadenfreude for the old times of communism.  Communism in eastern Europe is now seen as "camp" - perhaps the way we would now lampoon hippies or something similar.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museum_of_Communism,_Czech_Republic

It just doesn't work!  Human beings need incentives to work, other than facing "re-education" camps for those who are politically incorrect.  It is antithetical to being human, in my opinion.

I don't understand why those who are among the most acquainted with bureaucracy and dealing with it on a daily basis - students and faculty- would actually advocate national bureaucracies for routine matters, but of course that is what you see on campuses everywhere, even of course BYU.  Many LDS "intellectuals" back Bernie Sanders.  I do not understand it.  I guess I am just too stupid to understand how stupid conservatives are.

I know I am not smart enough to know what is best for everyone else and decide for them what they need to figure it out.   I am just not elitist enough to presume that.  I will be Papa to my family, but am not good at making decisions for people I have never met.

 

I'm not a Sanders supporter, but it should be noted that Sanders is not a communist. He's what you describe as a European-style socialist. It doesn't surprise me that lots of college kids support him. He's the candidate who offers them the most (though the offer lacks details). It's not any different from wealthy individuals who support republicans that would give them tax breaks. Most all people end up voting for whoever best serves their personal interests. That's democracy.

 

 

Edited May 18, 2016 by Buckeye

[Buckeye]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

As the late Eugene England pointed out long ago in a book review, “the divine economic order is not democratic capitalism, but theocratic socialism,” and he observed that today’s capitalistic Mormons were in the 19th century “dangerously anticapitalistic utopians.”  England in Sunstone Review, 2/10 (Oct 1982):1,25-27; cf. Richard L. Bushman, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling (2005), 105, 154-155.

 

I consider myself a socialist to the degree that the best government structure that I've been a part of is a socialistic one. The structure is called a "family." The problem is that no one has been able to grow this structure to function well for a group that numbers beyond a few hundred people.

[HappyJackWagon]

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

This is not even intelligible, let alone clever.

 

Does that mean you don't want to answer the question?

If you want unintelligible, you may want to reread your response.

Quote

Not so very false.

 

Huh?

[Damien the Leper]

14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

This is not even intelligible, let alone clever.

 

It makes perfect sense. He's responding to a ridiculous post with equal ridiculousness.

[jkwilliams]

57 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

This is not even intelligible, let alone clever.

 

Wasn't meant to be clever. You seem to believe that supporting despots disqualifies political parties. Both our US parties have a history of supporting despots.