JAHS Posted May 18, 2016 Posted May 18, 2016 Someone has asked me a question about holding a temple recommend and being a supporter of the Brazilian communist party. I know there are different forms of communism out there in the world and how strong a presence communism is in certain countries. I know nothing about the communist party in Brasil. My gut feeling is to say, of course you can not support the communist party and hold a temple recommend or even be a member of the church. Is communism in any country always contrary to the teachings of the Church? Can someone support such a party in their home country and be a Church member in good standing? My answer is, No. Am I wrong?
jkwilliams Posted May 18, 2016 Posted May 18, 2016 I had a mission companion who was a member of the Revolutionary Workers Party of Bolivia. Total Communist. He had been a branch president and was later a district president. So the answer appears to be "yes." 2
JAHS Posted May 18, 2016 Author Posted May 18, 2016 12 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I had a mission companion who was a member of the Revolutionary Workers Party of Bolivia. Total Communist. He had been a branch president and was later a district president. So the answer appears to be "yes." Well that's what I am wanting to find out. I know the various communist-type parties today are not like those we feared back in the 60's. They may however be in support of certain issues that the church is against; such as legalizing abortion and same sex marriage, etc.
jkwilliams Posted May 18, 2016 Posted May 18, 2016 1 minute ago, JAHS said: Well that's what I am wanting to find out. I know the various communist-type parties today are not like those we feared back in the 60's. They may however be in support of certain issues that the church is against; such as legalizing abortion and same sex marriage, etc. Does Trotskyite count? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Workers%27_Party_(Bolivia)
Popular Post mfbukowski Posted May 18, 2016 Popular Post Posted May 18, 2016 1 hour ago, JAHS said: Someone has asked me a question about holding a temple recommend and being a supporter of the Brazilian communist party. I know there are different forms of communism out there in the world and how strong a presence communism is in certain countries. I know nothing about the communist party in Brasil. My gut feeling is to say, of course you can not support the communist party and hold a temple recommend or even be a member of the church. Is communism in any country always contrary to the teachings of the Church? Can someone support such a party in their home country and be a Church member in good standing? My answer is, No. Am I wrong? Of course you are wrong. That question is not on the temple recommend interview. What question do you think it violates? 5
Scott Lloyd Posted May 18, 2016 Posted May 18, 2016 Can an active member support a neo-Nazi party in his country?
JAHS Posted May 18, 2016 Author Posted May 18, 2016 18 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Of course you are wrong. That question is not on the temple recommend interview. What question do you think it violates? "Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?" There were a lot of warnings from church leaders to the members back in the 30's to the 70's about communism. I may be wrong, but why do you think I am wrong? That's what I am trying to find out.
mfbukowski Posted May 18, 2016 Posted May 18, 2016 1 minute ago, JAHS said: "Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?" There were a lot of warnings from church leaders to the members back in the 30's to the 70's about communism. I may be wrong, but why do you think I am wrong? That's what I am trying to find out. I personally am a libertarian and about as right wing as they come. I hate to even mention that in this den of liberals I used to be a Trotskyite after I softened up a little from Maoism, which at one point I was actually into. I took classes in Dialectical Materialism from Angela Davis who was my professor and whom I had discussions in her office. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Davis But the reality is that this is now the platform of the Communist Party USA Quote Bill of Rights socialism[edit] The Communist Party USA emphasizes a vision of socialism as an extension of American democracy. Seeking to "build socialism in the United States based on the revolutionary traditions and struggles" of American history, the CPUSA promotes a conception of "Bill of Rights Socialism" that will "guarantee all the freedoms we have won over centuries of struggle, and also extend the Bill of Rights to include freedom from unemployment"– as well as freedom "from poverty, from illiteracy, and from discrimination and oppression".[59] Reiterating the idea of property rights in socialist society as it is outlined in Marx and Engels's Communist Manifesto,[60] the Communist Party emphasizes that Many myths have been propagated about socialism. Contrary to right-wing claims, socialism would not take away the personal private property of workers", but "the private ownership of major industries, financial institutions, and other large corporations, and the excessive luxuries of the super-rich.[59] Rather than making all wages entirely equal, the Communist Party USA holds that building socialism would entail "eliminating private wealth from stock speculation, from private ownership of large corporations, from the export of capital and jobs, and from the exploitation of large numbers of workers".[59] Sounds to me like they have become Democrats, at least the way the Democrat party is now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_USA#Bill_of_Rights_socialism It always pays to actually see what people believe before condemning them 4
The Nehor Posted May 18, 2016 Posted May 18, 2016 4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Can an active member support a neo-Nazi party in his country? Yes, I started shaving my head! It does not mean anything! The swastika is an old symbol of peace! I wear it for that reason! Stop the insinuations just because I am a snappy dresser and have extreme political views! Bigotry! Bigotry I say!
mfbukowski Posted May 18, 2016 Posted May 18, 2016 (edited) Quote Religion[edit] The Communist Party is not against religion, but instead regards positively religious people's belief in justice, peace, and respectful relations among the peoples. To build good relations with supporters of religion, the party has its own Religious Commission.[73] See above for link I guess since communism failed in the Soviet Union, times have changed Did you know we have stakes in Russia? https://www.lds.org/ensign/2014/02/that-vast-empire-the-growth-of-the-church-in-russia?lang=eng Edited May 18, 2016 by mfbukowski
JAHS Posted May 18, 2016 Author Posted May 18, 2016 11 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: The Communist Party USA emphasizes a vision of socialism as an extension of American democracy. Well that explains the Communist party in the USA. I specifically asked about the Brazilian Communist party or even communist parties in other countries who may have beliefs or dogmas that could be considered contrary to the Church doctrines.
mfbukowski Posted May 18, 2016 Posted May 18, 2016 3 minutes ago, JAHS said: Well that explains the Communist party in the USA. I specifically asked about the Brazilian Communist party or even communist parties in other countries who may have beliefs or dogmas that could be considered contrary to the Church doctrines. Ask a Brazilian bishop- it's not your call Did you look up what they believe?
BCSpace Posted May 18, 2016 Posted May 18, 2016 2 hours ago, JAHS said: Someone has asked me a question about holding a temple recommend and being a supporter of the Brazilian communist party. I know there are different forms of communism out there in the world and how strong a presence communism is in certain countries. I know nothing about the communist party in Brasil. My gut feeling is to say, of course you can not support the communist party and hold a temple recommend or even be a member of the church. Is communism in any country always contrary to the teachings of the Church? Can someone support such a party in their home country and be a Church member in good standing? My answer is, No. Am I wrong? By the wording of the questions, you are absolutely right; no, they can't. Communism/Socialism is completely antithetical to the gospel of Jesus Christ, especially in the areas of the Law of Consecration and the Plan of Salvation. The Church doesn't enforce the wording. But local leaders can and sometimes do, though I've never heard of it being applied to a political party. The closest I've seen to that is local application to public support of Planned Parenthood.
Bernard Gui Posted May 18, 2016 Posted May 18, 2016 3 minutes ago, BCSpace said: By the wording of the questions, you are absolutely right; no, they can't. Communism/Socialism is completely antithetical to the gospel of Jesus Christ, especially in the areas of the Law of Consecration and the Plan of Salvation. The Church doesn't enforce the wording. But local leaders can and sometimes do, though I've never heard of it being applied to a political party. The closest I've seen to that is local application to public support of Planned Parenthood. Well, I always told the bishop I am a member of the National Education Association, but only because I had to be in order to keep my job.
mfbukowski Posted May 18, 2016 Posted May 18, 2016 So now we are talking about judging every single communist in the world hypothetically to see if they could pass a recommend interview? I'm outa here. 2
The Nehor Posted May 18, 2016 Posted May 18, 2016 10 minutes ago, BCSpace said: By the wording of the questions, you are absolutely right; no, they can't. Communism/Socialism is completely antithetical to the gospel of Jesus Christ, especially in the areas of the Law of Consecration and the Plan of Salvation. The Church doesn't enforce the wording. But local leaders can and sometimes do, though I've never heard of it being applied to a political party. The closest I've seen to that is local application to public support of Planned Parenthood. Is the Rhinoceros Party antithetical to the gospel? I was considering bringing it back. 1
BCSpace Posted May 18, 2016 Posted May 18, 2016 5 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Is the Rhinoceros Party antithetical to the gospel? I was considering bringing it back. I dunno. What is the platform compared to the doctrine?
The Nehor Posted May 18, 2016 Posted May 18, 2016 3 minutes ago, BCSpace said: I dunno. What is the platform compared to the doctrine? Their "primal promise" is that they will keep none of their promises. They chose the rhinoceros as their symbol because like politicians rhinoceros are: "thick-skinned, slow-moving, dim-witted, can move fast as hell when in danger, and have large, hairy horns growing out of the middle of their faces. Their party platform is two feet high and made of wood. They vow to repeal the law of gravity, provide higher education by building taller schools, institute illiteracy as a national language, abolishing the environment as it is too hard to clean and takes up too much space, end crime by abolishing all laws. They also threatened to declare war on Belgium unless the country sent a case of Belgian mussels and a case of Belgian beer to their party headquarters. The Belgian embassy complied and sent both. 2
canard78 Posted May 18, 2016 Posted May 18, 2016 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: Can an active member support a neo-Nazi party in his country? False comparison. Or perhaps you weren't making a comparison and simply asking a fresh question. To the OP. Yes, of course they can.
BCSpace Posted May 18, 2016 Posted May 18, 2016 Quote Their "primal promise" is that they will keep none of their promises. Well, considering this TR question: "Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen? " You have answered your own question. And in like fashion, one can answer similar questions regarding any philosophy or belief system.
canard78 Posted May 18, 2016 Posted May 18, 2016 34 minutes ago, BCSpace said: By the wording of the questions, you are absolutely right; no, they can't. Communism/Socialism is completely antithetical to the gospel of Jesus Christ, especially in the areas of the Law of Consecration and the Plan of Salvation. The Church doesn't enforce the wording. But local leaders can and sometimes do, though I've never heard of it being applied to a political party. The closest I've seen to that is local application to public support of Planned Parenthood. "Communist" and "Socialist" are not synonymous. If you are going to ban Socialists too then you're going to have an even bigger problem of retaining members and recommend holders. There are heaps of socialist members in Europe. There is no official doctrine against Communism or Socialism in LDS cannon. I'm fully aware of a few leaders who spoke against it in the 60s etc. but that doesn't make it official. 1
BCSpace Posted May 18, 2016 Posted May 18, 2016 (edited) 8 minutes ago, canard78 said: "Communist" and "Socialist" are not synonymous. If you are going to ban Socialists too then you're going to have an even bigger problem of retaining members and recommend holders. There are heaps of socialist members in Europe. There is no official doctrine against Communism or Socialism in LDS cannon. I'm fully aware of a few leaders who spoke against it in the 60s etc. but that doesn't make it official. I believe you are incorrect on all three counts. 1. Socialism and Communism are synonymous. I'll go with this definition: Socialism and communism are alike in that both are systems of production for use based on public ownership of the means of production and centralized planning. Socialism grows directly out of capitalism; it is the first form of the new society. Communism is a further development or "higher stage" of socialism. 2. No one in this thread that I can see has proposed banning Socialists from the Church. If anything, the Church allows Socialist to discover the doctrine in the same way it allows members of other religions and new converts to discover that the LDS Church believes itself to be the only true Church and that there can only be two churches, one of Christ and the other of the devil. 3. I will answer the last from the official doctrine: “Socialism, wholly materialistic, is founded in the wisdom of men and not of God. Although all socialists may not be atheists, none of them in theory or practice seek the Lord to establish his righteousness. https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/enrichments/enrichment-l-the-law-of-consecration-and-stewardship?lang=eng Edited May 18, 2016 by BCSpace Update
canard78 Posted May 18, 2016 Posted May 18, 2016 6 minutes ago, BCSpace said: I believe you are incorrect on all three counts. I will answer the last from the official doctrine: “Socialism, wholly materialistic, is founded in the wisdom of men and not of God. Although all socialists may not be atheists, none of them in theory or practice seek the Lord to establish his righteousness. https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/enrichments/enrichment-l-the-law-of-consecration-and-stewardship?lang=eng Thanks for the references. I didn't realise there were quite so many of them who had been scared by the commies under the bed in the latter 20thC I'll also be sure to remember that LDS.org and CES manuals are the repository of official doctrine. Board members have been telling me otherwise for months, but it's good to be told otherwise. 2
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