Can an active member support a communist party in his country?

[Scott Lloyd]

On May 20, 2016 at 3:30 PM, Analytics said:

I'm not equating them, but I am comparing them.  If the mass murder committed by Stalin is evidence that Communism is evil, is the mass murder committed by Andrew Jackson evidence that capitalism is evil? If not, why not?  What's wrong with some serious introspection on the issue of American Exceptionalism, Manifest Destiny, and what Americans have done in the capitalistic pursuits of wealth, land, and power? 

But pulling this back to the topic, Joseph Smith was aware of serious economic and ethical problems associated unfettered capitalism, and envisioned a Utopia that wasn't that unlike the Utopia imagined by his contemporary Karl Marx.  If a Latter-day Saint shares this sensibility with Joseph Smith, I don't know why that would be grounds to deny him a temple recommend.

I never said it was.

I just thought it remarkable how everybody was going off on how acceptable Communism is but then went silent when I brought up neo-Naziism. I guess if you're left-leaning, the one is cool and the other isn't, though there's not a great deal of difference -- as despotism goes.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I never said it was.

I just thought it remarkable how everybody was going off on how acceptable Communism is but then went silent when brought up neo-Naziism. I guess if you're left-leaning, the one is cool and the other isn't, though there's not a great deal of difference -- as despotism goes.

To anyone unacquainted with Germany in the 30s and 40s Hitler is the poster child of anti-socialists.

Problem is Hitler was not really a socialist. He might be believed in it theoretically but once in power he practiced it rarely. In 1934 in the "Night of the Long Knives" Hitler ordered the SS to purge the SA (Brownshirts) who were a political embarrassment now that Hitler was in power. Hitler also took out Strasser and many members of his branch of the Nazi Party. They were the left-wing socialists left over in the party. Once they were dead Hitler quickly made friends with the army (who were pleased with the purge of both the SA and the Leftists both of whom they despised) and the business community of Germany. Hitler needed the business community on his side to build his war machine. While he made some token socialist economic decisions on the whole he turned the economy over to people who were not socialists and focused the economy on building guns, tanks, planes, and subs and the military industrial complex in Germany were making huge amounts of money. This was not socialism. This was crony capitalism making money off of a government that didn't care much about the economy as long as the war machine kept running.

Calling the Nazi Party after 1934 socialists is like calling North Korea a democracy because it has "democratic" in the title.

I am not a huge fan of socialism but then again I am not a huge fan of capitalism either. A lot of people are being very effectively capitalistic by selling lies about the past to buoy up capitalism.

[jkwilliams]

15 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I never said it was.

I just thought it remarkable how everybody was going off on how acceptable Communism is but then went silent when brought up neo-Naziism. I guess if you're left-leaning, the one is cool and the other isn't, though there's not a great deal of difference -- as despotism goes.

I didn't hear anyone say Communism or Fascism is acceptable, let alone cool. 

[Analytics]

9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I never said it was.

I just thought it remarkable how everybody was going off on how acceptable Communism is but then went silent when brought up neo-Naziism. I guess if you're left-leaning, the one is cool and the other isn't, though there's not a great deal of difference -- as despotism goes.

There is an incredible amount of difference.  Hitler considered Communism to be Germany's greatest threat--he plainly said that Marxism needed to be extinguished from the face of the planet in order to secure Germany's greatness.  There is a reason Germany was at war with Communist Russia.  People who have sympathy for Socialism will be inclined to have sympathy for Marxism, Thomas Moore's Utopia, and Joseph Smith's United Order, but won't have sympathy for Nazism.

American Neo-Nazis support Donald Trump.  American communists support Bernie Sanders.  There is a huge difference between the two.

[Rivers]

3 hours ago, Analytics said:

There is an incredible amount of difference.  Hitler considered Communism to be Germany's greatest threat--he plainly said that Marxism needed to be extinguished from the face of the planet in order to secure Germany's greatness.  There is a reason Germany was at war with Communist Russia.  People who have sympathy for Socialism will be inclined to have sympathy for Marxism, Thomas Moore's Utopia, and Joseph Smith's United Order, but won't have sympathy for Nazism.

American Neo-Nazis support Donald Trump.  American communists support Bernie Sanders.  There is a huge difference between the two.

Hitler wanted to make Germany great again. Donald Trump wants to make America great again.

[Rivers]

9 hours ago, provoman said:

 

Yes you are wrong.

You are wrong because the living Prophet has not condemned those members who support anything but the United States version of republican conservatism.

 

Exactly.  The gospel transcends politics.  I feel this is what Jesus meant when He said that His kingdom is not of this world.

[carbon dioxide]

On 5/21/2016 at 6:57 PM, Rivers said:

Hitler wanted to make Germany great again. Donald Trump wants to make America great again.

What is wrong with making a country great again when one sees their country in a downward spiral?  Hitler methods were bad had the allies treated Germany better after WW1, Hitler never would have come to power.

Edited May 22, 2016 by carbon dioxide

[Rivers]

32 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

 

 

32 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

What is wrong with making a country great again when one sees their country in a downward spiral?  Hitler methods were bad had the allies treated Germany better after WW1, Hitler never would have come to power.

And the art academy should have accepted Hitler.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Rivers

[BCSpace]

Quote

American Neo-Nazis support Donald Trump.  American communists support Bernie Sanders.  There is a huge difference between the two.

 

Considering the fact that 'Nazi' is the anglicized version of the German 'NSDAP' which stands for for 'National Socialist German Workers' Party', there is hardly any difference at all.

[mfbukowski]

On 5/20/2016 at 1:53 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

You are, with a straight face, equating the removal of Native Americans from ancestral homelands to the horrific mass slaughter of millions of innocents in the death camps of Nazi Germany?

Wow! I scarcely know what to say to that, other than I am astounded. I truly am done with this thread.

To any moderators who might be reading this, isn't about time this thread be closed, having devolved to a pure political back-and-forth, inconsistent with board guidelines?

Pretty tricky.  Duplicate post- so I gave you rep points on both!  2 for 1 !

[mfbukowski]

On 5/20/2016 at 2:30 PM, Analytics said:

I'm not equating them, but I am comparing them.  If the mass murder committed by Stalin is evidence that Communism is evil, is the mass murder committed by Andrew Jackson evidence that capitalism is evil? If not, why not?  What's wrong with some serious introspection on the issue of American Exceptionalism, Manifest Destiny, and what Americans have done in the capitalistic pursuits of wealth, land, and power? 

But pulling this back to the topic, Joseph Smith was aware of serious economic and ethical problems associated unfettered capitalism, and envisioned a Utopia that wasn't that unlike the Utopia imagined by his contemporary Karl Marx.  If a Latter-day Saint shares this sensibility with Joseph Smith, I don't know why that would be grounds to deny him a temple recommend.

Not even close to "alike" and trust me, I know both systems

Where is the "dictatorship of the proletariat" stage in Zion?  The difference is force vs agency for those who are subject to the society.  Marxism requires changing society from outside the individual though compulsion whereas Zion requires internal change and testimony first before one joins the society.

But I agree that most "communists" today do not accept this element of Marxism as originally expressed by Marx, or even know about it, since the CPUSA now advocates the Bill of Rights.  Pretty amazing

[ttribe]

2 hours ago, BCSpace said:

 

Considering the fact that 'Nazi' is the anglicized version of the German 'NSDAP' which stands for for 'National Socialist German Workers' Party', there is hardly any difference at all.

Talk about a shallow analysis.  It's pretty well established at this point that Hitler's incorporation of the word "Socialist" (along with a few socialist-like 'doctrines') was primarily a move to garner support for his party among the poor working class.  In fact, however, the Nazis were virulently anti-communist and had virtually no economic platform as part of their plans.  I suggest Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich; it may be old, but still one of the best.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, ttribe said:

Talk about a shallow analysis.  It's pretty well established at this point that Hitler's incorporation of the word "Socialist" (along with a few socialist-like 'doctrines') was primarily a move to garner support for his party among the poor working class.  In fact, however, the Nazis were virulently anti-communist and had virtually no economic platform as part of their plans.  I suggest Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich; it may be old, but still one of the best.

Yep, it's like saying a McNugget can lay eggs because it contains the word "chicken."

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, BCSpace said:

 

Considering the fact that 'Nazi' is the anglicized version of the German 'NSDAP' which stands for for 'National Socialist German Workers' Party', there is hardly any difference at all.

And the People's Democratic Republic of Korea is therefore a Democratic Republic. You do realize that names can be lies right?

[The Nehor]

On 5/21/2016 at 8:57 PM, Rivers said:

Hitler wanted to make Germany great again. Donald Trump wants to make America great again.

 

On 5/20/2016 at 5:02 PM, Analytics said:

There is an incredible amount of difference.  Hitler considered Communism to be Germany's greatest threat--he plainly said that Marxism needed to be extinguished from the face of the planet in order to secure Germany's greatness.  There is a reason Germany was at war with Communist Russia.  People who have sympathy for Socialism will be inclined to have sympathy for Marxism, Thomas Moore's Utopia, and Joseph Smith's United Order, but won't have sympathy for Nazism.

American Neo-Nazis support Donald Trump.  American communists support Bernie Sanders.  There is a huge difference between the two.

While Trump is not a fascist or a conservative or a socialist. He does use some fascist political tactics. Appeals to a quasi-mythical past. Talking about undesireables in the country keeping us from being as great as we were. Plans to get rid of said undesirables. Fascism is a conservative movement though of course not the only kind of conservative movement. It wants to go back to the way things were, usually by playing up the past as better then it was.

Communism is a progressive movement trying to create a better future (in some models a utopian future). There are few appeals to the past. Authoritarian anti-intellectual Communism like Stalin's are often as brutal as fascist states.They want to rush quickly to their beautiful future by killing anyone who gets in the way. Their undesirables are more likely to be ideological as opposed to racial or national. Sanders is of a much milder school of the left.

Both fascism and authoritarian communism are almost always abusive systems but they are also natural enemies. 

[BCSpace]

58 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Talk about a shallow analysis.  It's pretty well established at this point that Hitler's incorporation of the word "Socialist" (along with a few socialist-like 'doctrines') was primarily a move to garner support for his party among the poor working class.  In fact, however, the Nazis were virulently anti-communist and had virtually no economic platform as part of their plans.  I suggest Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich; it may be old, but still one of the best.

You obviously haven't read the 25 main points of the NSDAP.  I do agree that they were not as Socialist as Communist Russia, but they saw Communists more as revivals for the rulership of the world, not as an economic enemy.

[BCSpace]

Quote

Talking about undesireables in the country keeping us from being as great as we were. Plans to get rid of said undesirables.

So far during the campaign, he has said no such thing as we have just demonstrated to jk williams in the now closed thread on serving the God of the land. 

[jkwilliams]

6 minutes ago, BCSpace said:

So far during the campaign, he has said no such thing as we have just demonstrated to jk williams in the now closed thread on serving the God of the land. 

You mean the thread where a poster expressed a desire to deport Muslim citizens? The same one that quoted Trump saying that because Muslims hate us, they must not be allowed to enter our country? You have a funny way of demonstrating things.

Edited May 23, 2016 by jkwilliams

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, BCSpace said:

You obviously haven't read the 25 main points of the NSDAP.  I do agree that they were not as Socialist as Communist Russia, but they saw Communists more as revivals for the rulership of the world, not as an economic enemy.

Yes, actually, I have.  However, as I alluded to in my previous post, virtually all of the socialist aspects of the party had been eliminated by the time Hitler had taken the Chancellorship and was trying to get the military into his camp.  The elimination of the SA was done in conjunction with the elimination of some of the more vocal 'socialists' from the party membership; they went hand-in-hand.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, BCSpace said:

You obviously haven't read the 25 main points of the NSDAP.  I do agree that they were not as Socialist as Communist Russia, but they saw Communists more as revivals for the rulership of the world, not as an economic enemy.

And China insists it is a communist nation as part of their party platform. Therefore China has achieved full communism.

[Scott Lloyd]

On May 20, 2016 at 3:51 PM, The Nehor said:

To anyone unacquainted with Germany in the 30s and 40s Hitler is the poster child of anti-socialists.

Problem is Hitler was not really a socialist. He might be believed in it theoretically but once in power he practiced it rarely. In 1934 in the "Night of the Long Knives" Hitler ordered the SS to purge the SA (Brownshirts) who were a political embarrassment now that Hitler was in power. Hitler also took out Strasser and many members of his branch of the Nazi Party. They were the left-wing socialists left over in the party. Once they were dead Hitler quickly made friends with the army (who were pleased with the purge of both the SA and the Leftists both of whom they despised) and the business community of Germany. Hitler needed the business community on his side to build his war machine. While he made some token socialist economic decisions on the whole he turned the economy over to people who were not socialists and focused the economy on building guns, tanks, planes, and subs and the military industrial complex in Germany were making huge amounts of money. This was not socialism. This was crony capitalism making money off of a government that didn't care much about the economy as long as the war machine kept running.

Calling the Nazi Party after 1934 socialists is like calling North Korea a democracy because it has "democratic" in the title.

I am not a huge fan of socialism but then again I am not a huge fan of capitalism either. A lot of people are being very effectively capitalistic by selling lies about the past to buoy up capitalism.

I'm opposed to despotism of any form, socialist or not. 

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I'm opposed to despotism of any form, socialist or not. 

Quite a controversial stance.

[Scott Lloyd]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Pretty tricky.  Duplicate post- so I gave you rep points on both!  2 for 1 !

It's not intentional, but this isn't the first time I've thus benefitted. 

Of course, what generally happens, if anything, is that the two posts end up diluting each other in rep point content. 

Edited May 23, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Quite a controversial stance.

I felt a clarification was in order as your response to me seemed to presuppose I draw a qualitative distinction between the despotism of Hitler and the despotism of Communist regimes. I don't, of course. 

[PeterPear]

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