Can an active member support a communist party in his country?

[The Nehor]

20 minutes ago, BCSpace said:

Well, considering this TR question:

"Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen? "

You have answered your own question.  And in like fashion, one can answer similar questions regarding any philosophy or belief system.

You do realize that was a joke right? It is a real party but it is based on satire.

You know, funny, like your association of God with free-market capitalism.

[BCSpace]

11 minutes ago, canard78 said:

Thanks for the references. I didn't realise there were quite so many of them who had been scared by the commies under the bed in the latter 20thC

I'll also be sure to remember that LDS.org and CES manuals are the repository of official doctrine. Board members have been telling me otherwise for months, but it's good to be told otherwise. 

It's the latest consistent publication, the Church's own definition of official doctrine.  There need not be any specific declaration in any case.  One merely goes down the list of beliefs, policies, and platforms, comparing each to extant doctrine, to arrive at the inevitable conclusion of compatible or incompatible with LDS doctrine.

The board members who tell you otherwise have never been able to supply references from the Church contradicting it's own definition of doctrine which I have supplied and is not my opinion. Neither have they spoken to their Bishops or Stake presidents on the matter, as I have recommended they do, because they know the Church will back up it's own statements.

Edited May 18, 2016 by BCSpace
Update

[mfbukowski]

Disgusting pure bigotry.

On an LDS board.  Disgusting.  Ignoring the temple recommend interviews for guilt by association.

I just cannot believe it.  I could not even approach my bishop for a recommend if I believed these things.  It is pure ignorance.

"Inevitable conclusion".  Disgusting.  No judgement no weighing of actual opinions- just "inevitable conclusion".  No place in the gospel

Burn the witches without a trial.  The "inevitable conclusion" has been reached.

Edited May 18, 2016 by mfbukowski
Not scathing enough

[BCSpace]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

You do realize that was a joke right? It is a real party but it is based on satire.

You know, funny, like your association of God with free-market capitalism.

Yes I did realize you were joking.  I merely converted it into a teaching moment.  I don't consider the scriptures' and LDS doctrine's association of God with free market capitalism to be a joke because it's the perfect temporal description of the Plan of Salvation.  But I do have a sense of humor, so I am never offended.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, BCSpace said:

But I do have a sense of humor, so I am never offended.

Is that a challenge?  

[BCSpace]

10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Disgusting pure bigotry.

On an LDS board.  Disgusting.  Ignoring the temple recommend interviews for guilt by association.

I just cannot believe it.  I could not even approach my bishop for a recommend if I believed these things.  It is pure ignorance.

"Inevitable conclusion".  Disgusting.  No judgement no weighing of actual opinions- just "inevitable conclusion".  No place in the gospel

Burn the witches without a trial.  The "inevitable conclusion" has been reached.

Now you seem to be putting words in my mouth. I'm flabbergasted that any LDS person would go through life and never apply the gospel doctrine to the philosophies of men, to identify which are or are not compatible.

[BCSpace]

13 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Is that a challenge?  

Yep.  If Shady Acres can't offend me, you certainly can't.

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, BCSpace said:

Yep.  If Shady Acres can't offend me, you certainly can't.

Oh, I could try but it would probably end up being a sin and winning a fight on this board is not quite worth the suffering of repentance. So I will just stick to saying your confusion of political and religious principles borders on idolatry and leave it at that.

[canard78]

14 minutes ago, BCSpace said:

Now you seem to be putting words in my mouth. I'm flabbergasted that any LDS person would go through life and never apply the gospel doctrine to the philosophies of men, to identify which are or are not compatible.

I had you on ignore for a while BC. I'm now being reminded why. 

Instead, I have learned a different way to appreciate your posts here. It reminds me how easily religion can be twisted and reformed to fit ones own point of view. 

The fact that there are both socialists and "free market capitalists" who both manage to make Mormonism fit their own paradigm is a useful illustration of how readily people create god in the own image.

[BCSpace]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Oh, I could try but it would probably end up being a sin and winning a fight on this board is not quite worth the suffering of repentance. So I will just stick to saying your confusion of political and religious principles borders on idolatry and leave it at that.

You're entitled to your opinion of course.  But to me, an argument like yours makes one sound like one is either offended by LDS doctrine or one is afraid to offend others because of the doctrine.

[mfbukowski]

21 minutes ago, BCSpace said:

Now you seem to be putting words in my mouth. I'm flabbergasted that any LDS person would go through life and never apply the gospel doctrine to the philosophies of men, to identify which are or are not compatible.

Who wrote the doctrines? Space aliens?

Is God himself a man or not?

[BCSpace]

4 minutes ago, canard78 said:

I had you on ignore for a while BC. I'm now being reminded why. 

Instead, I have learned a different way to appreciate your posts here. It reminds me how easily religion can be twisted and reformed to fit ones own point of view. 

The fact that there are both socialists and "free market capitalists" who both manage to make Mormonism fit their own paradigm is a useful illustration of how readily people create god in the own image.

It is impossible for a believer to ignore discussion of the doctrine when he knows it's true.  Just look at mfbukowski who swore in his wrath that he was "out of here", and yet he keeps popping back in....

As for paradigms, LDS doctrine is true across all paradigms.  One cannot escape it.

[BCSpace]

5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Who wrote the doctrines? Space aliens?

Is God himself a man or not?

I think you know the answer as to who wrote the doctrines:

"With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications." 

God is indeed an exalted man as you know very well.  If one grows up on another planet, is one a space alien?

 

 

 

[mfbukowski]

Just now, BCSpace said:

I think you know the answer as to who wrote the doctrines:

"With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications." 

God is indeed an exalted man as you know very well.  If one grows up on another planet, is one a space alien?

 

 

 

So then clearly they are men, writing philosophy,  without it miraculously being in the philosophies of men.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

See above for link

I guess since communism failed in the Soviet Union, times have changed

Did you know we have stakes in Russia?

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2014/02/that-vast-empire-the-growth-of-the-church-in-russia?lang=eng

We even have a temple in Communist China (Hong Kong)..  Lots of members on the mainland.  Article of Faith 12 "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."  

The LDS Church is a worldwide church, whose members live in many different types of countries, under many different types of political systems.  Most Mormons live outside the USA.  You're not in Utah anymore, Toto.

[BCSpace]

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

So then clearly they are men, writing philosophy,  without it miraculously being in the philosophies of men.

I think you may have missed the divine inspiration part.

[mfbukowski]

9 minutes ago, BCSpace said:

I think you may have missed the divine inspiration part.

So one ceases to become human when inspired?

Of course I didn't miss it. The phrase itself makes no sense. I'm speaking about one phrase in the English language.

[mfbukowski]

We are Gods an embryo but apparently we cease to be human when we are inspired? Where is that in the doctrine?

[canard78]

26 minutes ago, BCSpace said:

It is impossible for a believer to ignore discussion of the doctrine when he knows it's true.  Just look at mfbukowski who swore in his wrath that he was "out of here", and yet he keeps popping back in....

As for paradigms, LDS doctrine is true across all paradigms.  One cannot escape it.

Wait, so you're saying that because MFB and I are engaging in the conversation (and trying to point out how barmy your stance is) it stands as evidence that we agree with you and deep down know that free market capitalism is God's political framework?

Suppose I start a new thread saying that God wants the church to allow gay marriage but it's only the blindness and bias of the membership that stops it happening. If anyone engages that conversation to refute my statement, by your logic, it means they actually, deep down, agree with the premise of my post?

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, BCSpace said:

Now you seem to be putting words in my mouth. I'm flabbergasted that any LDS person would go through life and never apply the gospel doctrine to the philosophies of men, to identify which are or are not compatible.

Sounds good,  Unfortunately, the Brethren themselves have been on both sides of the debate, giving it their best.   That is all any of us can do.  Applying the Gospel to secular systems may not be as easy as you assume.  WWJD?

Edited May 18, 2016 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, JAHS said:

Someone has asked me a question about holding a temple recommend and being a supporter of the Brazilian communist party. I know there are different forms of communism out there in the world and how strong a presence communism is in certain countries. I know nothing about the communist party in Brasil. My gut feeling is to say, of course you can not support the communist party and hold a temple recommend or even be a member of the church.  Is communism in any country always contrary to the teachings of the Church? Can someone support such a party in their home country and be a Church member in good standing? My answer is, No. Am I wrong?

Of course you are wrong.  None of the self-declared communist parties has ever been communist.  Most of them have been ardent state capitalist organizations/dictatorships.  They do say that they are building socialism so that, at some future date, the automatic harmony of pure communism will inevitably occur -- a kind of millennial Shangri-La.  About as likely as Hitler's Thousand Year Reich.

Those LDS members living in so-called communist states are obligated to support and defend those states.  Do you have any idea of what would happen if they were not supportive and cooperative?

[busybee]

8 hours ago, JAHS said:

Well that's what I am wanting to find out. I know the various communist-type parties today are not like those we feared back in the 60's. They may however be in support of certain issues that the church is against; such as legalizing abortion and same sex marriage, etc.

 

You mean like the democratic party in the US?

[jkwilliams]

North American church members seem more likely to associate the church and gospel with free-market capitalism. In my experience, members in many countries in the world don't make that connection at all. As a naïve American missionary, I was surprised at my companion's membership in a Trotskyite party. He, on the other hand, was shocked that I would suggest that church membership might have political implications. Some people here seem to believe that my companion should not have been eligible for a temple recommend, missionary service, or his callings as branch president and district president, as if his political beliefs negated his faith and his willingness to serve. If the church had such a political litmus test, I'd imagine they'd have a lot of trouble retaining active members and leaders in many parts of the world.

[JAHS]

I appreciate some of the real answers I got from a few posters here so far. I suppose one has to seriously take a look at what a particular so-called communist party espouses and match that up with Church doctrines to know if he can support such a political party and remain a faithful church member. In some countries that have different political parties (including communist), one has a choice which one to support.  I was hoping to see if anyone here had any real experiences in other countries with this kind of situation and how they handle it. 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, JAHS said:

I appreciate some of the real answers I got from a few posters here so far. I suppose one has to seriously take a look at what a particular so-called communist party espouses and match that up with Church doctrines to know if he can support such a political party and remain a faithful church member. In some countries that have different political parties (including communist), one has a choice which one to support.  I was hoping to see if anyone here had any real experiences in other countries with this kind of situation and how they handle it. 

I did. As I said, other than a brief conversation that illustrated our different perspectives, it simply wasn't an issue for me and my companion. Given his shock at my questioning his politics, I assume no one had ever asked him before and it hadn't been an issue. 

And this wasn't just a left-leaning party but one urging the abolition of capitalism by any means possible.