Can an active member support a communist party in his country?

[Analytics]

On ‎5‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 4:49 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

If you meant this or that controversial foreign policy or military action, that's one thing.

What I had in mind with my original comment had to do with seizing control of government, committing genocide, wholesale deprivation of human rights, etc., on the scale of what was done in the Soviet Union, Cuba, China, Nazi Germany, etc.

I don't believe anything of that nature has ever transpired in the United States of America.

 

I wonder how many decedents of slaves would agree that America has never engaged in the wholesale deprivation of human rights.

[Gray]

Just now, Analytics said:

 

I wonder how many decedents of slaves would agree that America has never engaged in the wholesale deprivation of human rights.

Not to mention Native Americans

[Analytics]

Capitalism is driven by material greed: the more you can exploit workers, the environment, and society at large for your own gain. the better you do in this system.  This isn't to say that all successful capitalists are evil pigs and that capitalism doesn't have some significant economic advantages.  But calling this system godly is absurd.

Joseph Smith understood this.  The United Order attempts to deal with the moral and economic shortcomings of Capitalism in the same way that Communism does.  In theory, there is no real difference between the United Order and Communism.  In practice, the United Order and Communism work equally well.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Analytics

[Scott Lloyd]

31 minutes ago, Analytics said:

 

I wonder how many decedents of slaves would agree that America has never engaged in the wholesale deprivation of human rights.

Or descendants of Mormons for that matter (or don't we count in your view?). 

Still, what I was getting at is that nothing that has gone on here comes anywhere close in scale to what was perpetrated by Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia. And the U.S. Government, while it condoned and sustained slavery, never imposed it. 

[provoman]

On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 9:49 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

If you meant this or that controversial foreign policy or military action, that's one thing.

What I had in mind with my original comment had to do with seizing control of government, committing genocide, wholesale deprivation of human rights, etc., on the scale of what was done in the Soviet Union, Cuba, China, Nazi Germany, etc.

I don't believe anything of that nature has ever transpired in the United States of America.

 

38 minutes ago, Analytics said:

 

I wonder how many decedents of slaves would agree that America has never engaged in the wholesale deprivation of human rights.

You have too look for the "weasel" phrases, i.e. "on the scale of what was done in ..."   

[provoman]

On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 2:05 AM, JAHS said:

Someone has asked me a question about holding a temple recommend and being a supporter of the Brazilian communist party. I know there are different forms of communism out there in the world and how strong a presence communism is in certain countries. I know nothing about the communist party in Brasil. My gut feeling is to say, of course you can not support the communist party and hold a temple recommend or even be a member of the church.  Is communism in any country always contrary to the teachings of the Church? Can someone support such a party in their home country and be a Church member in good standing? My answer is, No. Am I wrong?

 

Yes you are wrong.

You are wrong because the living Prophet has not condemned those members who support anything but the United States version of republican conservatism.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, provoman said:

 

You have too look for the "weasel" phrases, i.e. "on the scale of what was done in ..."   

OK, I've tried being reasonable, but I'm tired of trying to reason with lefties. I'll leave you to your political thread, for as long as it lasts before the moderators get around to closing it. 

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

OK, I've tried being reasonable, but I'm tired of trying to reason with lefties. I'll leave you to your political thread, for as long as it lasts before the moderators get around to closing it. 

There's nothing particularly "lefty" in acknowledging that our country has a long history of promoting despotism and oppression when it suits our political and economic goals. I agree that it's not on the scale of Hitler or Stalin, but it's still there nonetheless.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

There's nothing particularly "lefty" in acknowledging that our country has a long history of promoting despotism and oppression when it suits our political and economic goals. I agree that it's not on the scale of Hitler or Stalin, but it's still there nonetheless.

 

This is the first post I've seen here that even halfway acknowledges that difference in scale. Which is why I'm fed up with this thread. 

This will be my parting shot: You don't have to agree with everything the United States government has done to deplore the atrocities that have been perpetrated by Communist regimes -- or fascist regimes, for that matter. Both are equally odious, yet only one has its defenders here, it would seem. 

[Analytics]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Or descendants of Mormons for that matter (or don't we count in your view?). 

Still, what I was getting at is that nothing that has gone on here comes anywhere close in scale to what was perpetrated by Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia. And the U.S. Government, while it condoned and sustained slavery, never imposed it. 

What a gratuitous parenthetical comment.  You really expect me to list every group of people that has ever been the victim of human right violations in order to make a point?

The U.S. government's active pursuit of its manifest destiny policy was directly culpable in the wholesale violation of the civil rights of Native Americans from coast to coast.  To say that isn't on the same scale as Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia is a matter of perspective.

Regarding slavery, it's estimated that 12.5 million Africans were kidnapped and sent to the new world as slaves, and millions more were born here living their entire lives as slaves.  Your seem to be suffering from hyperopia when it comes to historical human right violations.

These two examples are directly related this thread--regardless of whether this was done by the U.S. Government itself, the wholesale violation of these civil rights on a continental scale was done by Americans, driven by their economic ambitions, under the economic system known as capitalism.  

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

This is the first post I've seen here that even halfway acknowledges that difference in scale. Which is why I'm fed up with this thread. 

This will be my parting shot: You don't have to agree with everything the United States government has done to deplore the atrocities that have been perpetrated by Communist regimes -- or fascist regimes, for that matter. Both are equally odious, yet only one has its defenders here, it would seem. 

Who is defending Communism or fascism? Yikes.

[jkwilliams]

I was just remembering that some church leaders and members supported the Falange Socialista. If you know anything about Spain or Latin America, you know the Falangistas were part of the Francoist fascist movement. 

[Scott Lloyd]

10 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Who is defending Communism or fascism? Yikes.

"A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." (Paul Simon)

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

"A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." (Paul Simon)

I hate to do this, but CFR. 

[Analytics]

22 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I hate to do this, but CFR. 

I'll help out Scott with this one.  The following album image shows that Paul Simon is in fact credited with writing the song, "The Boxer."

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

I hate to do this, but CFR. 

 

1 hour ago, Analytics said:

I'll help out Scott with this one.  The following album image shows that Paul Simon is in fact credited with writing the song, "The Boxer."

Maybe jkwilliams thought I meant Paul Simon (1928-2003), the former U. S. senator from Illinois.

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Maybe jkwilliams thought I meant Paul Simon (1928-2003), the former U. S. senator from Illinois.

Never mind, Scott. I didn't see any defense of Communism or Fascism in this thread. What I did see was the obvious point that our political parties aren't exactly without blame.

[Analytics]

45 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Never mind, Scott. I didn't see any defense of Communism or Fascism in this thread. What I did see was the obvious point that our political parties aren't exactly without blame.

Exactly.  I would guess that Scott thought I was defending Communism, when all I said is that in theory and practice, it is basically indistinguishable from the United Order.  That isn't a complement or a defense.

To put this thread out if its misery, I'll respond to the Scott's point about the scale of various atrocities.  Hitler had a vision for what he wanted Germany to look like, and he didn't see a place for Jews in it.  To create his ideal society, he went about systematically removing the Jews.  That isn't that unlike 19th Century America--Andrew Jackson had a vision for what he wanted America to look like, and he didn't see a place for Native Americans in it.  So, he went about systematically removing the Indians.  Sure, Hitler is directly responsible for millions of Jewish deaths while Andrew Jackson is only directly responsible for tens of thousands of Indian deaths, but does the difference in the scale of the respective atrocities change the fundamental nature of what both of them were? 

[Scott Lloyd]

30 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Exactly.  I would guess that Scott thought I was defending Communism, when all I said is that in theory and practice, it is basically indistinguishable from the United Order.  That isn't a complement or a defense.

To put this thread out if its misery, I'll respond to the Scott's point about the scale of various atrocities.  Hitler had a vision for what he wanted Germany to look like, and he didn't see a place for Jews in it.  To create his ideal society, he went about systematically removing the Jews.  That isn't that unlike 19th Century America--Andrew Jackson had a vision for what he wanted America to look like, and he didn't see a place for Native Americans in it.  So, he went about systematically removing the Indians.  Sure, Hitler is directly responsible for millions of Jewish deaths while Andrew Jackson is only directly responsible for tens of thousands of Indian deaths, but does the difference in the scale of the respective atrocities change the fundamental nature of what both of them were? 

You are, with a straight face, equating the removal of Native Americans from ancestral homelands to the mass slaughter of millions of innocents in the death camps of Nazi Germany?

Wow! I scarcely know what to say to that, other than I am astounded. I truly am done with this thread.

To any moderators who might be reading this, isn't about time this thread be closed, having devolved to a pure political back-and-forth, inconsistent with board guidelines?

[Scott Lloyd]

45 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Exactly.  I would guess that Scott thought I was defending Communism, when all I said is that in theory and practice, it is basically indistinguishable from the United Order.  That isn't a complement or a defense.

To put this thread out if its misery, I'll respond to the Scott's point about the scale of various atrocities.  Hitler had a vision for what he wanted Germany to look like, and he didn't see a place for Jews in it.  To create his ideal society, he went about systematically removing the Jews.  That isn't that unlike 19th Century America--Andrew Jackson had a vision for what he wanted America to look like, and he didn't see a place for Native Americans in it.  So, he went about systematically removing the Indians.  Sure, Hitler is directly responsible for millions of Jewish deaths while Andrew Jackson is only directly responsible for tens of thousands of Indian deaths, but does the difference in the scale of the respective atrocities change the fundamental nature of what both of them were? 

You are, with a straight face, equating the removal of Native Americans from ancestral homelands to the horrific mass slaughter of millions of innocents in the death camps of Nazi Germany?

Wow! I scarcely know what to say to that, other than I am astounded. I truly am done with this thread.

To any moderators who might be reading this, isn't about time this thread be closed, having devolved to a pure political back-and-forth, inconsistent with board guidelines?

Edited May 20, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

Maybe jkwilliams thought I meant Paul Simon (1928-2003), the former U. S. senator from Illinois.

 

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

Never mind, Scott. I didn't see any defense of Communism or Fascism in this thread. What I did see was the obvious point that our political parties aren't exactly without blame.

So you weren't asking me to document that Paul Simon really did write "The Boxer," then?

Well if I was confused, then Analytics was too. He did well in responding with the album covers, although a link to a Wikipedia entry would have been adequate.

 

 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

 

So you weren't asking me to document that Paul Simon really did write "The Boxer," then?

Well if I was confused, then Analytics was too. He did well in responding with the album covers, although a link to a Wikipedia entry would have been adequate.

I'm offended that you think I wouldn't know who wrote "The Boxer," Scott. You can question my allegiance to Beelzebub, but never doubt my knowledge of songwriters.

[Scott Lloyd]

9 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I'm offended that you think I wouldn't know who wrote "The Boxer," Scott. You can question my allegiance to Beelzebub, but never doubt my knowledge of songwriters.

I do question your allegiance to Beelzebub. Whatever your shortcomings, I don't think you are that bad.

[jkwilliams]

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I do question your allegiance to Beelzebub. Whatever your shortcomings, I don't think you are that bad.

Don't be fooled. I'm pure evil. 

[Analytics]

40 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You are, with a straight face, equating the removal of Native Americans from ancestral homelands to the mass slaughter of millions of innocents in the death camps of Nazi Germany?

I'm not equating them, but I am comparing them.  If the mass murder committed by Stalin is evidence that Communism is evil, is the mass murder committed by Andrew Jackson evidence that capitalism is evil? If not, why not?  What's wrong with some serious introspection on the issue of American Exceptionalism, Manifest Destiny, and what Americans have done in the capitalistic pursuits of wealth, land, and power? 

But pulling this back to the topic, Joseph Smith was aware of serious economic and ethical problems associated unfettered capitalism, and envisioned a Utopia that wasn't that unlike the Utopia imagined by his contemporary Karl Marx.  If a Latter-day Saint shares this sensibility with Joseph Smith, I don't know why that would be grounds to deny him a temple recommend.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Analytics