Can an active member support a communist party in his country?

[toon]

19 hours ago, JAHS said:

Someone has asked me a question about holding a temple recommend and being a supporter of the Brazilian communist party. I know there are different forms of communism out there in the world and how strong a presence communism is in certain countries. I know nothing about the communist party in Brasil. My gut feeling is to say, of course you can not support the communist party and hold a temple recommend or even be a member of the church.  Is communism in any country always contrary to the teachings of the Church? Can someone support such a party in their home country and be a Church member in good standing? My answer is, No. Am I wrong?

What about a member of the Church who supported a quasi-fascist or dictatorial party, say someone who supported Efrain Rios Montt in Guatemala?

[Scott Lloyd]

16 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Wasn't meant to be clever. You seem to believe that supporting despots disqualifies political parties. Both our US parties have a history of supporting despots. 

If you meant this or that controversial foreign policy or military action, that's one thing.

What I had in mind with my original comment had to do with seizing control of government, committing genocide, wholesale deprivation of human rights, etc., on the scale of what was done in the Soviet Union, Cuba, China, Nazi Germany, etc.

I don't believe anything of that nature has ever transpired in the United States of America.

[jkwilliams]

9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If you meant this or that controversial foreign policy or military action, that's one thing.

What I had in mind with my original comment had to do with seizing control of government, committing genocide, wholesale deprivation of human rights, etc., on the scale of what was done in the Soviet Union, Cuba, China, Nazi Germany, etc.

I don't believe anything of that nature has ever transpired in the United States of America.

We've overthrown governments, installed dictators, and supported everything you mentioned. The only difference is that we didn't do it within our borders. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Buckeye said:

 

I'm not a Sanders supporter, but it should be noted that Sanders is not a communist. He's what you describe as a European-style socialist. It doesn't surprise me that lots of college kids support him. He's the candidate who offers them the most (though the offer lacks details). It's not any different from wealthy individuals who support republicans that would give them tax breaks. Most all people end up voting for whoever best serves their personal interests. That's democracy.

 

 

Oh yeah- I agree.  But some were saying there is no difference between communism and socialism and none of them should get temple recommends.

Pure wacko-ness in my book.  I have no problem with communists getting recommends.  But Bernie-ites?   He essentially wants to bring European democratic "socialism" here, and so does the Communist Party USA.  It's pretty hard to see any distinctions there that would make a difference in a TR interview.

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

We've overthrown governments, installed dictators, and supported everything you mentioned. The only difference is that we didn't do it within our borders. 

That there has ever been anything done within our borders to compare with what has been done by Communist and National Socialist regimes is beyond ridiculous.

 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That there has ever been anything done within our borders to compare with what has been done by Communist and National Socialist regimes is beyond ridiculous.

So it's fine as long it's outside our borders. 

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Buckeye said:

I consider myself a socialist to the degree that the best government structure that I've been a part of is a socialistic one. The structure is called a "family." The problem is that no one has been able to grow this structure to function well for a group that numbers beyond a few hundred people.

Depends on what sort of socialism you have in mind.  In Western Europe social democrats are among the most powerful political parties -- British Labour Party, the German Social Democratic Party (SPD), etc.

Thus, very large groups support those political concepts, and there are a number of very successful socialist or communal industrial organizations:  Mondragon in Spain, with over 74 thousand members; the Hutterites in Canada and the USA, at 40 to 50 thousand; and the Israeli kibbutz system at perhaps 150,000 now. 

[Damien the Leper]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If you meant this or that controversial foreign policy or military action, that's one thing.

What I had in mind with my original comment had to do with seizing control of government, committing genocide, wholesale deprivation of human rights, etc., on the scale of what was done in the Soviet Union, Cuba, China, Nazi Germany, etc.

I don't believe anything of that nature has ever transpired in the United States of America.

Please see the history of Woodrow Wilson.

[BCSpace]

Quote

Oh yeah- I agree.  But some were saying there is no difference between communism and socialism

Which is true by definition.

 

Quote

and none of them should get temple recommends.

Who said that?

[jana at jade house]

Quote

“Socialism, wholly materialistic, is founded in the wisdom of men and not of God. Although all socialists may not be atheists, none of them in theory or practice seek the Lord to establish his righteousness.

wow offensive much??  An I am born and bred American.  It irritates me the USAmerican centricity of the institutional church.  There are more members who are not USAmerican than are says the stats of the church. We are inclusive, says the church.  

I get grumpy when i see the total opposite, in the church.

I admire many many members here who are Socialist, and vote that way, faithfully attend the temple, and lead our units with integrity and Christlike qualities.

It isn't even 0800. cripes..

[The Nehor]

23 hours ago, BCSpace said:

You're entitled to your opinion of course.  But to me, an argument like yours makes one sound like one is either offended by LDS doctrine or one is afraid to offend others because of the doctrine.

Yeah, I would definitely be a pariah here in Texas and in the LDS Church if I was a staunch American conservative. I am definitely only denying I believe it to avoid the enmity of my friends and neighbors.

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Not so very false.

Both parties have a history of sponsoring oppressive, murderous, despotic regimes.

But, you say, not all communist parties have done that.

To which I respond: Not all neo-Nazi parties have done that either.

(For the record, I approve of neither Communism nor neo-Naziism.)

I am not sure you can argue that capitalist countries have a cleaner record.

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That there has ever been anything done within our borders to compare with what has been done by Communist and National Socialist regimes is beyond ridiculous.

 

If your standard for being okay is not reaching the level of Stalin or Hitler you may want to rework your scale.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, BCSpace said:

 

Edited May 19, 2016 by mfbukowski

[The Nehor]

"Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Democratic Party?"

[BCSpace]

Quote

An I am born and bred American.  It irritates me the USAmerican centricity of the institutional church.

There is no such 'centricity' in the Church.  The doctrine is the same no matter where you stand.

Quote

There are more members who are not USAmerican than are says the stats of the church. We are inclusive, says the church.

We are not inclusive of false doctrines and philosophies that lead away from God and eternal principles though.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

If your standard for being okay is not reaching the level of Stalin or Hitler you may want to rework your scale.

I didn't give that as my "standard for being OK." I was pointing out the absurdity of jkwilliams's comparison. 

[Scott Lloyd]

9 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

So it's fine as long it's outside our borders. 

That's not what I said, and you know it. 

[jkwilliams]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That's not what I said, and you know it. 

Obviously I don't. I'm not sure what your point was. You said that communists and fascists supported despotism, etc. As I said, our parties in the US have done the same thing, the only difference being that the despotism we supported was largely outside our borders. You then said it was ludicrous for me to suggest that our parties had supported such things within our borders--a claim I didn't make. So, I don't know what your point was. Sorry, maybe it's the pain from the kidney stone, but I'm not following your train of thought. I'm not attacking you, Scott. 

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, BCSpace said:

There is no such 'centricity' in the Church.  The doctrine is the same no matter where you stand.

We are not inclusive of false doctrines and philosophies that lead away from God and eternal principles though.

And as we all know the Bible and Book of Mormon are chock full of the merits of free-market capitalism and its eternal nature. When one reads of Enoch's Zion they point out at length that it was only capitalism that could create that utopia.

Oh wait.......

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I didn't give that as my "standard for being OK." I was pointing out the absurdity of jkwilliams's comparison. 

It isn't absurd.

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It isn't absurd.

I didn't think so, either. Support for despotism and mass murder is wrong, whoever does it and wherever it happens. 

[BCSpace]

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

And as we all know the Bible and Book of Mormon are chock full of the merits of free-market capitalism and its eternal nature. When one reads of Enoch's Zion they point out at length that it was only capitalism that could create that utopia.

Oh wait.......

What do you think rules out free market capitalism in the city of Enoch?  Have you actually read the doctrine on the Law of Consecration?  Checkmate.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, BCSpace said:

What do you think rules out free market capitalism in the city of Enoch?  Have you actually read the doctrine on the Law of Consecration?  Checkmate.

I have, I have also read your "interesting" understanding of it multiple times. The Venn diagram of the two does not overlap much.

I don't think you understand much about chess either.

[jana at jade house]

Quote

 An I am born and bred American.  It irritates me the USAmerican centricity of the institutional church.  There are more members who are not USAmerican than are says the stats of the church. We are inclusive, says the church.

BC, note I am referring to the institutional church, behaviours, and effect as I observe the disparity  and culture clash here in the Netherlands ( I cannot speak to expat experiences in other countries.)  I am NOT impugning doctrines, nor will I let you infer that I am. However, to survive without my head exploding I have had to separate the doctrine from the institution.  And, having said that, I have observed in my quarter century of residence here, that the institution inadvertently teaches to English speaking US American culture.  When I first came whenever a native would say "We don't do that here" or " That's only in America."   I felt affronted.  Now I understand.  A mission does not qualify a person to speak for or against the membership outside the US. Missionaries get a snapshot.  Only those of us who have lived in the States and have lived internationally know how the odd some pronouncements sound. Like the recent women's conference: we already have a million ways to be involved with refugees. One in 7 in my village is a refugee.  Having a whole conference devoted to get out there and help?  Been there, do that.  And have been for years.  It was needed for a certain subset of sisters, but not all....and left not a few of the Dutch sisters wondering what was wrong with what they already do and do really well.