With all the evidence against the LDS church, why is God still telling people to join?

[gopher]

Last weekend I conducted a baptism service for two sisters who knew very little about the LDS church just a month ago.  They are both intelligent, independent, and successful wives and mothers.  One woman met our adorable (but very timid and socially awkward) sister missionaries last month while walking her dog.  She accepted the invitation from the missionaries to come to her home later for a lesson.  Her sister, who lives with her, was still suffering from the hurt and pain she experienced growing up in a fundamentalist Christian church and was not interested in attending.  (As a result of committing a certain sin, not only her congregation, but also her parents and siblings were forbidden to acknowledge her or speak to her.)

After their baptisms, I asked both to share their thoughts and feelings with us.  The first woman told us that she never would have invited strangers into her home, but something inside prompted her to accept the invitation from the missionaries.  During the first lesson, she said she received a powerful witness from God that it was true and she agreed to be baptized.  As she studied and prayed, she continued to receive personal revelation that it was the right decision.  Her sister then spoke and told us how she always found something else to do while the lessons were taught.  She did let her sister convince her to attend church two weeks ago and stayed for all three hours.  But she still had no intention of joining the church.  However, that evening, while she was upstairs avoiding the missionaries, who had come to teach a lesson, she had a spiritual experience where she was told it was time for her join the church.  It was accompanied by strong feelings of love, calm, and warmth.  She surprised everyone when she came downstairs for the rest of the lesson.  She told us after her baptism that she could feel the pain and anger leaving her.  She felt she could finally forgive God and her family.

Now, their story may not be remarkable to many.  But with all that is going on today that is apparently convincing people the church isn't true (CES letter, CH1 changes, BYU honor code, grumpy apostles, church essays, etc.), why is God still continuing to tell people it is true and to be baptized?

[HappyJackWagon]

I'm glad these ladies found something that will bring increased joy, peace, and belonging into their lives. The church provides great good in the lives of many people. Suggesting that "good" equals absolute truth is a stretch though.

Many people worldwide have spiritual experiences that lead them to various religions, whether Islam, Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism etc. Is each person who bears witness of divine experience/prompting to join those religions wrong? Are they misunderstanding promptings? Are they confusing emotion for spiritual witness? I don't know. But just because people join doesn't mean those religions are The True Church.  People join religions for many reasons, including spiritual promptings but I feel it is a mistake to equate personal decisions of individuals as some kind of proof of truthful legitimacy.

I prefer to think of it as people who are seeking a connection with God and find a "good" way to worship and interact, independent of absolute truth. 

[Kevin Christensen]

The parable of the sower explains it all for those with ears to hear.  When the disciples asked the meaning, Jesus responds in Mark, "Know ye not this parable?  How then shall ye learn all parables."  Joseph Smith taps into this insight with his own comment that "the different teachers of the religion understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible," or by appealing to the CES Letter (to which I, and several others have responded in detail and at length, referring to something as crucial as "grumpy apostles" rather than my detailed FAIRMormon essay on "Biblical Keys for Discerning True and False Prophets", which list, I can't help but notice, does not include "grumpy apostles as a deciding issue.

And of course, there is Thomas Kuhn who observes that paradigm choice always involves deciding "which problems are more significant to have solved."

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/eye-of-the-beholder-law-of-the-harvest-observations-on-the-inevitable-consequences-of-the-different-investigative-approaches-of-jeremy-runnells-and-jeff-lindsay/

As N. R. Hanson famously observed,, "All data is theory laden," and Kuhn explains that "anomaly emerges against a background of expectation," which means that is it not bits of data that carry conclusions with them, but interpretation.  And Jesus helpfully observed that if you want to judge properly, it helps to start by removing the beams from one's own eyes, and then, when considering things like CES Letters and grumpy apostles, one can see clearly.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

 

[Johnnie Cake]

never mind...I wasn't playing well

Edited May 3, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[ALarson]

33 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I'm glad these ladies found something that will bring increased joy, peace, and belonging into their lives. The church provides great good in the lives of many people. Suggesting that "good" equals absolute truth is a stretch though.

Many people worldwide have spiritual experiences that lead them to various religions, whether Islam, Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism etc. Is each person who bears witness of divine experience/prompting to join those religions wrong? Are they misunderstanding promptings? Are they confusing emotion for spiritual witness? I don't know. But just because people join doesn't mean those religions are The True Church.  People join religions for many reasons, including spiritual promptings but I feel it is a mistake to equate personal decisions of individuals as some kind of proof of truthful legitimacy.

I prefer to think of it as people who are seeking a connection with God and find a "good" way to worship and interact, independent of absolute truth. 

I agree.

Many in my wife's family are very staunch, good Catholics.  We've had discussions and they believe with all their being that their church is the true church.  They believe the keys were handed down from ancient times from Peter on down and that the Mormon religion is a modern "man made" religion.  I can honestly understand where they are coming from too.  However, they do believe we have many of the same righteous beliefs and we agree on many things too.  We've had some great discussions and they are some of the best people I've ever known.

 

[stemelbow]

59 minutes ago, gopher said:

Last weekend I conducted a baptism service for two sisters who knew very little about the LDS church just a month ago.  They are both intelligent, independent, and successful wives and mothers.  One woman met our adorable (but very timid and socially awkward) sister missionaries last month while walking her dog.  She accepted the invitation from the missionaries to come to her home later for a lesson.  Her sister, who lives with her, was still suffering from the hurt and pain she experienced growing up in a fundamentalist Christian church and was not interested in attending.  (As a result of committing a certain sin, not only her congregation, but also her parents and siblings were forbidden to acknowledge her or speak to her.)

After their baptisms, I asked both to share their thoughts and feelings with us.  The first woman told us that she never would have invited strangers into her home, but something inside prompted her to accept the invitation from the missionaries.  During the first lesson, she said she received a powerful witness from God that it was true and she agreed to be baptized.  As she studied and prayed, she continued to receive personal revelation that it was the right decision.  Her sister then spoke and told us how she always found something else to do while the lessons were taught.  She did let her sister convince her to attend church two weeks ago and stayed for all three hours.  But she still had no intention of joining the church.  However, that evening, while she was upstairs avoiding the missionaries, who had come to teach a lesson, she had a spiritual experience where she was told it was time for her join the church.  It was accompanied by strong feelings of love, calm, and warmth.  She surprised everyone when she came downstairs for the rest of the lesson.  She told us after her baptism that she could feel the pain and anger leaving her.  She felt she could finally forgive God and her family.

Now, their story may not be remarkable to many.  But with all that is going on today that is apparently convincing people the church isn't true (CES letter, CH1 changes, BYU honor code, grumpy apostles, church essays, etc.), why is God still continuing to tell people it is true and to be baptized?

I think it's a fair question.  Kind of like others have said, if those that aren't the one true Church are seeing genuine seekers join their religions, as they feel moved upon by God, or the Holy Ghost, why would God so guide or direct such a thing?  Maybe to God joining the Church is not the end, the magnificent benefit we like to tell ourselves.  Perhaps His guiding is irrespective of truth in favor of leading the individual to gain a greater desire to love. 

I think we will see more clearly at some point, sure.  But now it's just a murky mess.  Any direction we take could be argued against, and compellingly so.  That's the frailty of our life.  Some seem to think we are doomed if in this murky haze we make life altering decisions to leave the Church.  I tend to think God has HIs personal designs for everyone whether in or out of the church. 

[CA Steve]

1 hour ago, gopher said:

Last weekend I conducted a baptism service for two sisters who knew very little about the LDS church just a month ago.  They are both intelligent, independent, and successful wives and mothers.  One woman met our adorable (but very timid and socially awkward) sister missionaries last month while walking her dog.  She accepted the invitation from the missionaries to come to her home later for a lesson.  Her sister, who lives with her, was still suffering from the hurt and pain she experienced growing up in a fundamentalist Christian church and was not interested in attending.  (As a result of committing a certain sin, not only her congregation, but also her parents and siblings were forbidden to acknowledge her or speak to her.)

After their baptisms, I asked both to share their thoughts and feelings with us.  The first woman told us that she never would have invited strangers into her home, but something inside prompted her to accept the invitation from the missionaries.  During the first lesson, she said she received a powerful witness from God that it was true and she agreed to be baptized.  As she studied and prayed, she continued to receive personal revelation that it was the right decision.  Her sister then spoke and told us how she always found something else to do while the lessons were taught.  She did let her sister convince her to attend church two weeks ago and stayed for all three hours.  But she still had no intention of joining the church.  However, that evening, while she was upstairs avoiding the missionaries, who had come to teach a lesson, she had a spiritual experience where she was told it was time for her join the church.  It was accompanied by strong feelings of love, calm, and warmth.  She surprised everyone when she came downstairs for the rest of the lesson.  She told us after her baptism that she could feel the pain and anger leaving her.  She felt she could finally forgive God and her family.

Now, their story may not be remarkable to many.  But with all that is going on today that is apparently convincing people the church isn't true (CES letter, CH1 changes, BYU honor code, grumpy apostles, church essays, etc.), why is God still continuing to tell people it is true and to be baptized?

For the same reason(s) God is telling people to join and or leave other churches.

[stemelbow]

45 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

never mind...I wasn't playing well

Well thanks for your restraint.  I need to take a lesson from that. 

[gopher]

46 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

never mind...I wasn't playing well

Too bad, I missed what you posted.

[Atheist Mormon]

Just now, gopher said:

why is God still continuing to tell people it is true and to be baptized?

That is certainly not God or another third party voice which could be discernible to anyone else....

[Storm Rider]

16 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

That is certainly not God or another third party voice which could be discernible to anyone else....

This is what an atheist says when coming face to face with God in order to allow his unbelief.  If it works for you, go for it. 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, gopher said:

why is God still continuing to tell people it is true and to be baptized?

Because he “doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.” (2 Nephi 26:33).

Because “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.” (Hebrews 13:8).

“For the Lord God giveth light unto the understanding; for he speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding.” (2 Nephi 31:3).

“For behold, the Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own nation and tongue, to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have; therefore we see that the Lord doth counsel in wisdom, according to that which is just and true.” (Alma 29:8)

Because He is a God of miracles (Mormon 9).

Most of all, I suppose, is because He loves His children.

[Tacenda]

A salesman came to my door and showed me the most amazing vacuum cleaning and shampooer.  I was amazed at what my vacuum left behind.  I was ready to buy it on the spot, but the price was so high, I decided to hold back until I spoke with my husband.  Later I spoke with others and one person liked the vacuum, and others said they didn't like how they were treated when they wanted to return it.  They saw another side.  We've yet to buy the vacuum after hearing some outside information on it.  

My true life experience can be compared to the OP story in a way.  I've nearly always felt the spirit when I'm around the missionaries. But when I attend my ward's weekly meetings, I don't feel it nearly as much.  I think the missionaries are spiritual giants in the mission field, they have a love of the people that just beams.  And a love of the church and gospel. 

Could this love have just made the spirit swell within these women?  I don't know, but I hope when they join the church they don't get sideswiped by members, church history, etc.  But they could very well join and live happily ever after for sure!!  And maybe God thought they'd be happy in our church vs. their former church.  Because that church sounds terribly abusive.  Too bad our church has it's flaws too, and some feel it can be abusive...saw this on Bill Reels' website.  

  http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2016/05/church-farther-figure/

Not to put a damper on the OP, but why the discrepancies?  

[Atheist Mormon]

Just now, Storm Rider said:

This is what an atheist says when coming face to face with God in order to allow his unbelief.  If it works for you, go for it. 

It has to work/It did work. I never faced God, (not for the lack of opportunities I've given him). I'm glad it works for you, that you have two sided relationship with him.

[Storm Rider]

23 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

It has to work/It did work. I never faced God, (not for the lack of opportunities I've given him). I'm glad it works for you, that you have two sided relationship with him.

The relationship between God and man is individual.  It does not matter how many prophets or any one else works on his behalf, the relationship is personal.  You started out by responding, "That is certainly not God or another third party voice which could be discernible to anyone else...."  This could easily be seen as proselyting for your chosen belief system.  I find atheists seem much more interested in having others join them in their unbelief.  

Your lack of relationship with God has no impact on my relationship with God.  We may experience the same things, but we perceive them differently.  Where one can deny experience or reclassify them to the point  of unbelief - of course God did not talk to me or answer my prayer or confirm his truth, that was only my subconscious mind playing tricks on me, etc. - others will recognize the experience and other experiences to the point that it becomes too difficult to deny.

I also think too many people, believers and non-believers alike - think of God as their own personal genie in a bottle. If I say my prayers just so, or do something in a specific manner, then God will grant me my wish.  That is not how God works and it is an infantile understanding of who God is and our purpose on this earth.  

I advocate for the happiness of man.  If God does not work for you, then be happy in whatever else you choose.  If the Church of Jesus Christ is not enough for you, then find something that is and be happy.  If serves nothing to mope about, complaining about what you thought was and should have been.  If I were to use biblical language - be hot or cold, but never lukewarm.  

I am pretty ambivalent what the choice is people make, just that they make it.  My sister-in-law was great in this.  She left the LDS Church and became a Jew, stayed with that for several years and then she became a Catholic.  Each step of the way she was happy.  She never spent any time complaining about Mormonism or Judaism.  She died and was happy.  I don't think she had any regrets about her spiritual journey - she saw herself trying to find what worked for her and what did not.  I respected her for her willingness to press forward without whining or complaining.  

[Atheist Mormon]

Just now, Storm Rider said:

I am pretty ambivalent what the choice is people make, just that they make it.  

I like your response, very liberal,respectful of others...Can't say it is (not) a typical LDS view.....but no, I don't care to convert anyone to my point of view....I read/listen alot Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Penn Gilette, Michael Shermer, influenced greatly by Carl Sagan, Christopher Hitchens. And absolutely not by Mother Theresa.........

[Okrahomer]

51 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I've nearly always felt the spirit when I'm around the missionaries. But when I attend my ward's weekly meetings, I don't feel it nearly as much.  I think the missionaries are spiritual giants in the mission field, they have a love of the people that just beams.  And a love of the church and gospel. 

If I was your Bishop, and you indicated this to me, I'd make sure you had a calling that kept you involved with the missionaries.  

[gopher]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I'm glad these ladies found something that will bring increased joy, peace, and belonging into their lives. The church provides great good in the lives of many people. Suggesting that "good" equals absolute truth is a stretch though.

Many people worldwide have spiritual experiences that lead them to various religions, whether Islam, Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism etc. Is each person who bears witness of divine experience/prompting to join those religions wrong? Are they misunderstanding promptings? Are they confusing emotion for spiritual witness? I don't know. But just because people join doesn't mean those religions are The True Church.  People join religions for many reasons, including spiritual promptings but I feel it is a mistake to equate personal decisions of individuals as some kind of proof of truthful legitimacy.

I prefer to think of it as people who are seeking a connection with God and find a "good" way to worship and interact, independent of absolute truth. 

Thanks, you made some good points.  I'm trusting the women when they claimed their experiences were from God, not from emotion or misunderstanding.  I don't believe they would have joined for any other reason.  I just thought it was interesting that apparently God is still telling people to get baptized in the LDS church in spite of all its flaws that are identified here on this board.

[gopher]

3 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

The parable of the sower explains it all for those with ears to hear.  When the disciples asked the meaning, Jesus responds in Mark, "Know ye not this parable?  How then shall ye learn all parables."  Joseph Smith taps into this insight with his own comment that "the different teachers of the religion understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible," or by appealing to the CES Letter (to which I, and several others have responded in detail and at length, referring to something as crucial as "grumpy apostles" rather than my detailed FAIRMormon essay on "Biblical Keys for Discerning True and False Prophets", which list, I can't help but notice, does not include "grumpy apostles as a deciding issue.

And of course, there is Thomas Kuhn who observes that paradigm choice always involves deciding "which problems are more significant to have solved."

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/eye-of-the-beholder-law-of-the-harvest-observations-on-the-inevitable-consequences-of-the-different-investigative-approaches-of-jeremy-runnells-and-jeff-lindsay/

As N. R. Hanson famously observed,, "All data is theory laden," and Kuhn explains that "anomaly emerges against a background of expectation," which means that is it not bits of data that carry conclusions with them, but interpretation.  And Jesus helpfully observed that if you want to judge properly, it helps to start by removing the beams from one's own eyes, and then, when considering things like CES Letters and grumpy apostles, one can see clearly.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

 

I should have left out the grumpy apostle bit.  I wanted to list a few of the recent controversial topics discussed on this board.  After typing two serious paragraphs, my sarcastic/witty side kicked in.  I like your mention of the parable of the sowers.  I think it applies very well in this case.

[RevTestament]

54 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

A salesman came to my door and showed me the most amazing vacuum cleaning and shampooer.  I was amazed at what my vacuum left behind.  I was ready to buy it on the spot, but the price was so high, I decided to hold back until I spoke with my husband.  Later I spoke with others and one person liked the vacuum, and others said they didn't like how they were treated when they wanted to return it.  They saw another side.  We've yet to buy the vacuum after hearing some outside information on it.  

My true life experience can be compared to the OP story in a way.  I've nearly always felt the spirit when I'm around the missionaries. But when I attend my ward's weekly meetings, I don't feel it nearly as much.  I think the missionaries are spiritual giants in the mission field, they have a love of the people that just beams.  And a love of the church and gospel. 

Could this love have just made the spirit swell within these women?  I don't know, but I hope when they join the church they don't get sideswiped by members, church history, etc.  But they could very well join and live happily ever after for sure!!  And maybe God thought they'd be happy in our church vs. their former church.  Because that church sounds terribly abusive.  Too bad our church has it's flaws too, and some feel it can be abusive...saw this on Bill Reels' website.  

  http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2016/05/church-farther-figure/

Not to put a damper on the OP, but why the discrepancies?  

Because people are imperfect Tacenda. I've noted that some Mormons are a little prideful about being "right" and sometimes rub potential converts the wrong way. I myself probably come across a little prideful about what I think I know, etc. However, everything I have been shown about the gospel is through the work of others, failings of others, successes of others, and the workings of the Spirit. About the only thing I think I can truly take credit for is a certain dogged persistence about seeking truth. I know I didn't come up with all "my ideas" myself. If anything they are God's ideas, which I have kind of blundered into as stupid but stubborn bulldog.
My wife had some negative experiences connected with church leaders growing up. Sometimes church leaders don't like being challenged in public with regard to their offices, etc. Sometimes the positive attributes which inspire someone to be called don't outweigh faults that need to addressed before they should take office.

There are many wonderful conversion stories in the Church, and occasions where people have audibly heard the spirit speak to them concerning the truthfulness of this church... but that doesn't make the members immune to mistakes and the foibles of life, or even making mistakes in their callings. I think the membership of the church would be more content if they didn't have such high expectations of their leaders - then when a fault creeps up they won't be "crushed" or become disillusioned or stop attending because they are offended. While in general my experience with Church members is quite good, I have sometimes felt members are clickish, or distant, etc. But I'm sure I can be perceived the same way as I tend to be quiet and introspective. People are people. We are all hopefully trying to become better people, but we certainly can have moments of pride, guile, anger, selfishness, etc.

I believe one strength about the church is that it asks members to fill callings, and so to appreciate that our leaders are people like us, with our struggles, weaknesses, but hopefully share our love of Christ.

[gopher]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

I agree.

Many in my wife's family are very staunch, good Catholics.  We've had discussions and they believe with all their being that their church is the true church.  They believe the keys were handed down from ancient times from Peter on down and that the Mormon religion is a modern "man made" religion.  I can honestly understand where they are coming from too.  However, they do believe we have many of the same righteous beliefs and we agree on many things too.  We've had some great discussions and they are some of the best people I've ever known.

 

I don't disparage anyone who believes their church is the true church.  In fact, why would anyone want to belong to a church that didn't believe they were the true church?  I'm surrounded by many good people of many non-LDS religions (I live far from Utah).  I do think it's interesting that LDS members often cite personal revelation from God when discussing their beliefs of the true church.  Maybe others just express it a different way.

[gopher]

2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

That is certainly not God or another third party voice which could be discernible to anyone else....

I'll take them at their word.

[smac97]

On 5/3/2016 at 8:32 AM, CA Steve said:

For the same reason(s) God is telling people to join and or leave other churches.

I believe God can and does speak to people who adhere to other religious traditions.  After all, a person is probably better off living according to the precepts of Buddhism than, say ditching religion altogether.  That does not, however, mean that God’s communications to Buddhists are tantamount to, as some might put it, "spiritual confirmations that their church or belief system is the most correct one."  I do not believe we are speaking of identical or interchangeable spiritual confirmations here.  I don’t think God “confirms” to a Buddhist the reality of reincarnation, karma, and the Four Noble Truths, while simultaneously “confirming” to his Christian neighbor that Jesus Christ is “the way, the truth, and the life."  To the extent God speaks to those in other faith traditions, I do not believe he confirms the verity of incorrect notions and traditions.

We are told that “every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.”  (Moroni 7:13).  Thus, I think God may inspire a person to, say, become a Catholic nun.  Not because the Catholic Church is “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth” but because that woman’s individual circumstances are such that she is better off doing good and loving and serving God as a nun than not.

Nevertheless, our mandate remains to preach the Restored Gospel to all such persons.  If our belief system posits that Jesus Christ is “the way, the truth, and the life,” and that “no man cometh unto the Father, but by [him]” (John 14:6), that the LDS Church is “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth” (D&C 1:30) that we have been commanded to “call upon all nations, first upon the Gentiles, and then upon the Jews” (D&C 133:8), then it is our place to convert them (or, rather, to facilitate and assist in the conversion process).  The LDS Church has exclusivistic truth claims.  It claims to be more than merely one choice amongst a plethora of equally acceptable choices in the eyes of God.  It claims to be more than “first among equals.”  It claims to be the Church of Jesus Christ.  

I don’t think God intended the LDS Church to go out into the world and preach the Restored Gospel empty-handed.  Nor does He expect others to accept it on a “Well, this religion is just as good as the next, I suppose” basis.  I believe there are truths, and evidences supporting those truths, to be found in the LDS Church and nowhere else.  Hence we have things available to us as Latter-day Saints which, collectively, are not found anywhere else.  The Book of Mormon.  The Book of Mormon.  The Testimony of the Three Witnesses.  The Testimony of the Eight Witnesses.  The Doctrine & Covenants.  President Monson, and the other living prophets and apostles.  Priesthood authority.  Temple ordinances.  Continuing revelation.  Personal revelation.

Thanks,

-Smac

[gopher]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

A salesman came to my door and showed me the most amazing vacuum cleaning and shampooer.  I was amazed at what my vacuum left behind.  I was ready to buy it on the spot, but the price was so high, I decided to hold back until I spoke with my husband.  Later I spoke with others and one person liked the vacuum, and others said they didn't like how they were treated when they wanted to return it.  They saw another side.  We've yet to buy the vacuum after hearing some outside information on it.  

My true life experience can be compared to the OP story in a way.  I've nearly always felt the spirit when I'm around the missionaries. But when I attend my ward's weekly meetings, I don't feel it nearly as much.  I think the missionaries are spiritual giants in the mission field, they have a love of the people that just beams.  And a love of the church and gospel. 

Could this love have just made the spirit swell within these women?  I don't know, but I hope when they join the church they don't get sideswiped by members, church history, etc.  But they could very well join and live happily ever after for sure!!  And maybe God thought they'd be happy in our church vs. their former church.  Because that church sounds terribly abusive.  Too bad our church has it's flaws too, and some feel it can be abusive...saw this on Bill Reels' website.  

  http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2016/05/church-farther-figure/

Not to put a damper on the OP, but why the discrepancies?  

Not sure they would equate their experiences with a deciding to buy vacuum, no matter how many nice features it had, but I get your point.  I'm taking these women at their word.  I'm sure that felt love from/for the missionaries, but they claim they joined the church because of personal revelation from God that it was true.  So, if the church is also abusive, why is God telling them to join?  Their lives were just fine before they met the missionaries.

[Tacenda]

56 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

If I was your Bishop, and you indicated this to me, I'd make sure you had a calling that kept you involved with the missionaries.  

My good experiences have mainly been, reading letters from missionaries like my son, my neighbors kids or my nieces and nephews on both my husband's and my side of the family.  My one on one as a potential convert, they didn't know we were members, was on two separate vacations to Nauvoo and Palmyra.  It was amazing!  

But there have been a few times the missionaries let me down and that is when feeding them in my home or on my doorstep.  But those were rare.