With all the evidence against the LDS church, why is God still telling people to join?

[consiglieri]

19 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The phraseology in many cases comes not only from the KJV, but also from earlier English bibles, a language which also dominates the Anglican Church's Book of Common Prayer.  Three facts must be fully understood before one can deal adequately with this issue:

1)  The Book of Mormon was composed in ancient Egyptian, not KJV English.  However, it naturally included many quotations from ancient biblical texts, translated into an Egyptian form (Brass Plates).  This is known as intertextuality, and it follows certain distinctive rules.

2)  The NT Greek has long passages which are identical to the LXX Greek phrasing of the OT, which is further based upon the Hebrew text of the OT.  During translation, the separate KJV committees doing the translating/adapting of old translations did not communicate, and so used separate English phrasing for certain passages -- thus leading those not understanding the Greek & Hebrew to erroneously think that the base text of the OT and NT are utterly different and unrelated.

3)  A modern translator may use familiar phrasing wherever he wishes to do so.  Right on into the 20th century, non-Mormon scholars continued to translate ancient Near Eastern texts using KJV style English -- without recriminations.

Dear Robert,

I appreciate your actually attempting to engage in a response to the question I asked Country Boy.

But Country Boy refuses to answer, and under the circumstances, I am not inclined to let him have somebody else answer for him.

Though I doubt he could do anywhere near as good a job as you.

With all due respect to you, I will wait to interact with Country Boy in this issue.

If and when he decides to come down from his high horse and answer the question.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Storm Rider]

4 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

The evidence is in the question.

The only objection that could be made is that there are no New Testament King James Version quotations in the Book of Mormon.

County Boy has not raised that objection because he knows that there are numerous New Testament King James Version quotations in the Book of Mormon.  He just wants to put me to the trouble of proving what he already knows is true.  Not very professional. 

And so Country boy ridicules me for not proving the point he already knows is true. 

And you jump on the bandwagon.

This performance is quite revealing.

Of both of you.

And others . . .

My son calls this weak sauce.  That is the best you are going to do?  Consig, you are drooping badly in your old age.  

[consiglieri]

1 hour ago, CountryBoy said:

I see Consig has still not recovered from being a miserable failure at the legal stuff.  I was truly hoping he would man up and try again.  

To recap:  I asked for proffer of evidence.....he failed....he did not offer evidence...he made an odd statement that was neither evidence or a proper proffer.

Then he tried to act like I was a witness instead of the attorney and tried to make a ruling because he knew he could not handle his task.

I am still willing to have our little hearing....if he has it within him to try again.  

 

 

I do not jump to your tune.

Are you saying that you are not aware that KJV passages from the New Testament are quoted in the Book of Mormon?

If you admit that you do not, I will provide them.

I was under the impression I was dealing with somebody who knew a bit more than that.

On the other hand, if you are aware that KJV passages from the New Testament are quoted in the Book of Mormon, why all the gamesmanship with trying to make me prove something you already know?

What are you playing at, anyway?

[consiglieri]

3 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

My son calls this weak sauce.  That is the best you are going to do?  Consig, you are drooping badly in your old age.  

Your son is no doubt as intelligent as his father.

[UtahTexan]

28 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

If you are done preening, you might try to take a crack at answering my question.

All the points are in the question. 

 

Or perhaps you failed to notice that . . .

sigh....don't try using silly words like "preening" to cover your failure and ignorance at the game you tried to play.  Either do it right (folks have helped you) or adm it you were in over your head (we already know it anyway).  In the meantime, the silly question you had has already been answered.  You failed and now you are dull

Edited May 4, 2016 by CountryBoy

[Guest]

When the Spirit bore witness to the restored Gospel, God knew the truth about all. He knew of the great people who helped to build the kingdom on earth, and he knew their flaws. For me in the coming decades, the issues that would come to light, and of those that would lose faith in the restored Church. Many have left the Church who cannot deny wonderful manifestations of the Spirit, but still fell away when issues that came to light later on in their activity within the Church. Having experienced so many great Spiritual experiences gives me the strength to hold on to the iron rod, until such time as everything falls in it's proper context. The older I grow, decades beyond the age of Joseph and Hyrum, I am able to judge less harshly as I too am flawed, and I understand their weaknesses. In fact what the early leaders of the Church accomplished dispite their human flaws, leaves me with awe and wonder. I praise God that he has given me the strength to remain faithful, dispite the ragging storms and waters around me, to wait upon the Lord to feel the calm, as he stills the waters. I wish I could impart that peace, but alas only the Saviour can, and by the way...will. 

[UtahTexan]

29 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

The evidence is in the question.

The only objection that could be made is that there are no New Testament King James Version quotations in the Book of Mormon.

County Boy has not raised that objection because he knows that there are numerous New Testament King James Version quotations in the Book of Mormon.  He just wants to put me to the trouble of proving what he already knows is true.  Not very professional. 

And so Country boy ridicules me for not proving the point he already knows is true. 

And you jump on the bandwagon.

This performance is quite revealing.

Of both of you.

And others . . .

 

 

No...evidence is NOT in a question.  Ever.  If you are going to play a game you don't have the tools to play, at least study a LITTLE first.  You would look less ignorant of the issues.

[UtahTexan]

23 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

I do not jump to your tune.

Are you saying that you are not aware that KJV passages from the New Testament are quoted in the Book of Mormon?

If you admit that you do not, I will provide them.

I was under the impression I was dealing with somebody who knew a bit more than that.

On the other hand, if you are aware that KJV passages from the New Testament are quoted in the Book of Mormon, why all the gamesmanship with trying to make me prove something you already know?

What are you playing at, anyway?

lol...but you DID....I asked for evidence...you made a feeble attempt at "Exhibit A"

Now....again.....if you wish to play an adult game of law....do so correctly....if not...just say so....we all know you failed anyway, so no shame....much

[Ahab]

15 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

I do not jump to your tune.

Are you saying that you are not aware that KJV passages from the New Testament are quoted in the Book of Mormon?

If you admit that you do not, I will provide them.

I was under the impression I was dealing with somebody who knew a bit more than that.

On the other hand, if you are aware that KJV passages from the New Testament are quoted in the Book of Mormon, why all the gamesmanship with trying to make me prove something you already know?

What are you playing at, anyway?

Please formalize your objection by objecting to the judge in this trial.  You're not supposed to be engaged in banter with the prosecuting attorney.  Is this really the best you can do in defense of your client?

As of yet you haven't offered any evidence to back up your earlier claim and your attempt to misdirect has been challenged.

[california boy]

19 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

It does seem that Satan does get all the advantages in the world at this time.  There is plenty of scientific evidence Satan points to cause disbelief and God withholds the evidence.   God gave us witnesses for the Book of Mormon (which is good) but took the plates away.  The manuscripts for the Book of Abraham were lost.  Sometimes it seems that God is going out of his way to make things hard for us both being in the church and do missionary work.  The only thing I can think of is God really is not concerned about how many members in the Church there are.  He rather have a small, dedicated core group of people.  If God wanted the Church to grow by millions in a year he could do it.  All he would have to do is give the brass plates to the church.  After it was scientifically proven that the plates are authentic and thousands of years old, a lot of people would join the church is large numbers as how could they refute it?  Even better would be a pillar fire over a temple for a day or two.  I guess we as members need to stop worrying about how big the Church is or growth of it.  God sure does not seem to care about that.  God cares about whether those that are in it are doing what they are asked and being faithful.  

I remember as a kid, sitting in seminary thinking similar thoughts about the Pearl of Great Price. Imagine having the scrolls written by the hand of Abraham himself. And then having the translation by a prophet of God, Joseph Smith of that ancient record preserved by God to come forth in these latter days. Scientists could verify the age and accuracy of that translation. There would be solid undeniable proof that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.  But the scrolls were lost. We had to rely on faith that what was said was true. 

 

And then then years later the scrolls were discovered. . .

[consiglieri]

2 hours ago, CountryBoy said:

Darn it,...was gonna get there if Consig woulda finished what he started.....or, better said, had not failed at what he started

Sure you were, Cowboy.

Sure you were.

But instead, you decided to demand I produce evidence of what you already know to be true.

You may be a lousy lawyer, but you have the makings of a great apologist.

Really.

I mean that.

 

 

[UtahTexan]

32 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

Sure you were, Cowboy.

Sure you were.

But instead, you decided to demand I produce evidence of what you already know to be true.

You may be a lousy lawyer, but you have the makings of a great apologist.

Really.

I mean that.

 

 

Look...I did not demand anything.  I asked for evidence.....I truly did not expect anyone to act like it was a court proceeding.  When you did, I wanted it done right.  You provided no evience, but asked a quesiton.  That is not how it goes.  I was really hoping for a quasi-legal back and forth once you started.  It never appeared...but coulda been fun.

There is no real answer to your question.  Even when I was anti-Mormon, your issue did not bother me.  If Joseph was translating, he would have used language he felt was right for the content.  He knew the Bible.  He used it.  I have no problem with it.  I have done the same thing in translating legal docs from Spanish to English...I could translate word-for-word, but I don't.  I take most of it and then put it in "legalese", because that is the legal style I know.  I will even lift paragraphs from my existing docs if it matches what is in Spanish.  That is why, even as anti....this issue never bothered me.

And, in actuality, I am an amazing attorney.  I train other attorneys.  On a national rating system (AVVO), I have a 9.9 rating....the best I can get is a 10.0.  I might have the 10 if I would write...but I do not want to.  I do not say this brag...but to defend against the "lousy attorney" comment.

Not sure I am even trying to be an apologist.  I am a believer.  One who left the Church in 1989, fought against the Church, and have returned home.  Nothing more.

Poster removed along with some of his posts. If everyone doesn't get back on topic the thread will be closed.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, consiglieri said:

...............................................

..............................................there are numerous New Testament King James Version quotations in the Book of Mormon.  .................

.................................................................................

Yes, there are, the surface assumption being that the Lord cannot quote himself, or that intertextuality does not exist.  At a deeper level, one might want to consider how someone steeped in NT KJV lingo might choose to translate similar thoughts -- including chains of traditional metaphors.  One does not even have to opt for midrashic expansion of the received text (as attorney Blake Ostler does) in order to account for such a phenomenon.

[carbon dioxide]

4 hours ago, california boy said:

I remember as a kid, sitting in seminary thinking similar thoughts about the Pearl of Great Price. Imagine having the scrolls written by the hand of Abraham himself. And then having the translation by a prophet of God, Joseph Smith of that ancient record preserved by God to come forth in these latter days. Scientists could verify the age and accuracy of that translation. There would be solid undeniable proof that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.  But the scrolls were lost. We had to rely on faith that what was said was true. 

 

And then then years later the scrolls were discovered. . .

Only small portions of the scrolls were discovered.  The more important parts are still lost.

[carbon dioxide]

5 hours ago, consiglieri said:

I do not jump to your tune.

Are you saying that you are not aware that KJV passages from the New Testament are quoted in the Book of Mormon?

If you admit that you do not, I will provide them.

I was under the impression I was dealing with somebody who knew a bit more than that.

On the other hand, if you are aware that KJV passages from the New Testament are quoted in the Book of Mormon, why all the gamesmanship with trying to make me prove something you already know?

What are you playing at, anyway?

It is well known that KJV style passages are in the BOM.   Now comes the interesting part.  Put your face in a hat and dictate several chapters of Isaiah to a friend while he writes the words down.  Once you are done, lets see how accurate your dictation is. Make a video of it and put the transcript online without editing. 

[omni]

21 hours ago, cdowis said:

 

How are you certain it is they who are deceived and not yourself?  In my experience, relying on the Spirit does not produce reliable answers.  

Ammon Bundy and company took over the Oregon wildlife refuge as a result of a powerful spiritual experience in which they believed God was giving them the okay to do so.  These are devout life long members who have no doubt felt the Spirit many times throughout their lives, yet their confirmation directly contradicts an official statement from Church on the matter.

[omni]

21 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Confirmation bias is always a problem, as much in religion as in academic work.  Moreover, it does not exist solely within the Restoration tradition, but within many religious traditions.

At the same time, you make it sound as though only one single tradition could possibly be true in the absolute, logical sense.  One might want to start with William James, The Variety of Religious Experience, as well as the various works of Joseph Campbell on worldwide myth and symbol, and finish with Fritjof Capra's The Tao of Physics.  That way we don't have to take confirmation bias as the only explanation for everything, nor do we need to blame God for sending mixed messages.  Instead, we might opt for the inherently subjective nature of all such beliefs, and the need for mutual respect among belief systems and believers.  One need not be narrow and disrespectful of the various traditions.

I completely agree, however I'm not sure why you are quoting me.  Shouldn't this be directed at those championing the idea  of a "one true church".  I think you might find a few of them around here...

[omni]

5 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

Any links, Omni Linkletter?

There's a podcast called Home of the Brave, the episode titled Saints of the Last Days contains a story about the Saints of the Last Days polygamous church in Manti, Utah.  

The church is comprised mostly of former LDS and during a testimony meeting a young woman bares her testimony of the witness she has recently received after asking prayer to know the truthfulness of that particular church.  If one didn't know any better, they would swear they were listening to an LDS testimony meeting.

I'd also recommend the Absolutely, God Told Us episode, it's about the Oregon wildlife refuge takeover and the religious justification used as told by one of the LDS men involved.

Another great podcast was from Mormon Stories in which JD interviewed a former devout Mormon who became a polygamist.

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, omni said:

Shouldn't this be directed at those championing the idea  of a "one true church".  

Somebody has to be right.  Can't really have two true churches if all of them are different from the other.

Edited May 5, 2016 by carbon dioxide

[omni]

7 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Somebody has to be right.  Can't really have two true churches if all of them are different from the other.

Or it could be that there is no "one true church", but instead Gid directing us to where we should be whether that's the LDS Church, Judaism, or no organized religion at all.  

Or perhaps were simply mistaking a common human emotion for God's will.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, omni said:

I completely agree, however I'm not sure why you are quoting me.  Shouldn't this be directed at those championing the idea  of a "one true church".  I think you might find a few of them around here...

I like to agree with you omni.  Especially when it's a pet peeve of mine.

[Robert F. Smith]

35 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Somebody has to be right.  Can't really have two true churches if all of them are different from the other.

You'd think so, but such a notion can be wrong, even if there is mutual exclusivity.

[california boy]

5 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Only small portions of the scrolls were discovered.  The more important parts are still lost.

I am not going sown that rabbit hole  Nor do I wish to attack someone's beliefs. I am just saying wishing for something to prove faith does not always work out the way you might want

[flameburns623]

7 hours ago, omni said:

There's a podcast called Home of the Brave, the episode titled Saints of the Last Days contains a story about the Saints of the Last Days polygamous church in Manti, Utah.  

The church is comprised mostly of former LDS and during a testimony meeting a young woman bares her testimony of the witness she has recently received after asking prayer to know the truthfulness of that particular church.  If one didn't know any better, they would swear they were listening to an LDS testimony meeting.

I'd also recommend the Absolutely, God Told Us episode, it's about the Oregon wildlife refuge takeover and the religious justification used as told by one of the LDS men involved.

Another great podcast was from Mormon Stories in which JD interviewed a former devout Mormon who became a polygamist.

 

Thanks. 

[Bobbieaware]

7 hours ago, omni said:

Or it could be that there is no "one true church", but instead Gid directing us to where we should be whether that's the LDS Church, Judaism, or no organized religion at all.  

Or perhaps were simply mistaking a common human emotion for God's will.

That's not what the prophets of the Book of Mormon taught. So because I believe Joseph Smith is a true prophet, I'll cleave to the pronouncements and solemn testimonies of the great prophets found upon the pages of the "keystone" of the LDS religion (without the keystone the structure comes crashing down). Excuse me if I choose to hold fast to the iron rod of the word of God -- a gift from God that will safely lead me through the mists of post-modern deception and darkness -- before becoming a devotee of pop-psychology and secular humanist sophistry. Meanwhile, I'll sustain you in your God-given right to reject the teachings of the Book of Mormon, but there's nothing I can do to prevent the spiritual consequences that will naturally flow from that decision.