With all the evidence against the LDS church, why is God still telling people to join?

[omni]

42 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

That's not what the prophets of the Book of Mormon taught. So because I believe Joseph Smith is a true prophet, I'll cleave to the pronouncements and solemn testimonies of the great prophets found upon the pages of the "keystone" of the LDS religion (without the keystone the structure comes crashing down). Excuse me if I choose to hold fast to the iron rod of the word of God -- a gift from God that will safely lead me through the mists of post-modern deception and darkness -- before becoming a devotee of pop-psychology and secular humanist sophistry. Meanwhile, I'll sustain you in your God-given right to reject the teachings of the Book of Mormon, but there's nothing I can do to prevent the spiritual consequences that will naturally flow from that decision.

I'll take my chances.

[Bobbieaware]

24 minutes ago, omni said:

I'll take my chances.

So let it be written, so let it be done.

Another option is that though there is but one true Church, many of the other Churches are partially based on truth and therefore partially beneficial; so the Spirit doesn't intervene to outright dissuade some people from aligning with those churches, for doing so can become a part of a broad earthly learning experience that will lead those who have embraced part of the truth to ultimately embrace of the all it. This option is based on the wisdom that some truth is better than no truth at all.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[cdowis]

12 hours ago, omni said:

  In my experience, relying on the Spirit does not produce reliable answers.  

I am very sorry to hear that.  My experience is very different from yours, and it is possible to gain that relationship with Heavenly Father if you desire it.

I suggest that you look at Alma chapter 32, that you read, study and pray about what it teaches and if you apply that in your life, you will have that which you seek.
 

The church is comprised mostly of former LDS and during a testimony meeting a young woman bares her testimony of the witness she has recently received after asking prayer to know the truthfulness of that particular church.  If one didn't know any better, they would swear they were listening to an LDS testimony meeting.

There is an important principle here.  Each one of us INDIVIDUALLY are responsible for our own decisions.  You can't blame someone else for your own disbelief.  We have to find out for ourself.

Edited May 5, 2016 by cdowis

[gopher]

15 hours ago, california boy said:

I remember as a kid, sitting in seminary thinking similar thoughts about the Pearl of Great Price. Imagine having the scrolls written by the hand of Abraham himself. And then having the translation by a prophet of God, Joseph Smith of that ancient record preserved by God to come forth in these latter days. Scientists could verify the age and accuracy of that translation. There would be solid undeniable proof that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.  But the scrolls were lost. We had to rely on faith that what was said was true. 

 

And then then years later the scrolls were discovered. . .

That's a great example.  Why is God confirming through spiritual means to at least some people that Joseph Smith is a prophet even though there appears to be evidence he is not?  whew, that's an awkward sentence, sorry. Hope it's clear.

[Kevin Christensen]

16 hours ago, california boy said:

I remember as a kid, sitting in seminary thinking similar thoughts about the Pearl of Great Price. Imagine having the scrolls written by the hand of Abraham himself. And then having the translation by a prophet of God, Joseph Smith of that ancient record preserved by God to come forth in these latter days. Scientists could verify the age and accuracy of that translation. There would be solid undeniable proof that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.  But the scrolls were lost. We had to rely on faith that what was said was true. 

 

And then then years later the scrolls were discovered. . .

Ian Barbour observes that "a network of theories and observations is always tested together. Any particular hypothesis can be maintained by rejecting or adjusting other auxiliary hypotheses.” See  Ian Barbour, Myths, Models, and Paradigms, 99.

Where California Boy sees a straight forward, simple test, I see an untested network of interlocking assumptions, and that a great many interesting things about the Book of Abraham, and the papyrus we have and the papyrus we don't have, the historical accounts we have, Joseph's methods and definitions, and the nature of scholars and historians that are completely overlooked.

Of course, I also learned on the playgrounds of Adelaide Elementary school that it doesn't take any more effort than a simple "So what?" to dismiss any argument and evidence.  What do we notice, and what do we value?  Kuhn explains that paradigm choice always involves deciding "Which problems are more significant to have solved?"  And Aristotle pointed out that "Given a lever and a place to stand, he could move the world."  Same thing applies to world views.  All it takes is leverage in a carefully selected location.  But leverage is a very flexible principle, and it can be applied in more than one way.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[cdowis]

47 minutes ago, gopher said:

That's a great example.  Why is God confirming through spiritual means to at least some people that Joseph Smith is a prophet even though there appears to be evidence he is not?  whew, that's an awkward sentence, sorry. Hope it's clear.

The "written by the hand of Abraham" is an instructive example of doubt destroying one's faith.  If you have faith, a spiritual relationship with God, it is just a matter of time and patience to find out the answer to our troubling questions.  "There are a hundred reasons to leave the church, and only to remain,"

In this particular case, there is a very simple answer, if one were just to open their mind and give it some thought and not wait for someone to continually spoon feed them the answers.  It's time to get off mommy's nipple and stand up and be a man.

 

Edited May 5, 2016 by cdowis

[Storm Rider]

7 minutes ago, cdowis said:

The "written by the hand of Abraham" is an instructive example of doubt destroying one's faith.  If you have faith, a spiritual relationship with God, it is just a matter of time and patience to find out the answer to our troubling questions.  "There are a hundred reasons to leave the church, and only to remain,"

In this particular case, there is a very simple answer, if one were just to open their mind and give it some thought and not wait for someone to continually spoon feed them the answers.  It's time to get off mommy's nipple and stand up and be a man.

 

Careful, you are not being thoughtful of the feelings of others.  In fact, you are following after the mean old man, Elder Holland by using such direct, mean language.  You have individuals running for their safe rooms to avoid having their feelings abused by you and others.  Shame on you. 

[cdowis]

4 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Careful, you are not being thoughtful of the feelings of others. .......  Shame on you. 

Social Hall is our designated "safe space".  You may feel more comfortable there.

[theplains]

On 03/05/2016 at 6:09 PM, Storm Rider said:

When we come to the topic of inclusiveness I know of no other theology that believes that all of God's children will have a kingdom of glory.  The only ones that will not are the sons of perdition - those who did not live by faith, but by sure knowledge and still chose to follow after Satan or fought against God's plan.  

Did I adequately answer your question?

Sounds like those who know Mormon teachings and reject them.  Yes, you answered my question.

Thanks,

Jim

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

Sounds like those who know Mormon teachings and reject them.  Yes, you answered my question.

Thanks,

Jim

Jim, it is not those that know Mormon teachings and reject; not even close.  I would almost say that it has nothing to do with doctrine of any kind.  It has to do with having a sure know of Jesus Christ; that he is the son of God, the Savior of all humanity, and willingly reject him and the Father; and consciously work against God.  Do you see the distinction?  The Sons of Perdition are not ordinary individuals who have a crisis of faith; they have no faith and they prefer darkness in its most base meaning. 

[theplains]

19 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Jim, it is not those that know Mormon teachings and reject; not even close.  I would almost say that it has nothing to do with doctrine of any kind.  It has to do with having a sure know of Jesus Christ; that he is the son of God, the Savior of all humanity, and willingly reject him and the Father; and consciously work against God.  Do you see the distinction?  The Sons of Perdition are not ordinary individuals who have a crisis of faith; they have no faith and they prefer darkness in its most base meaning. 

Are temple-going Mormons who leave the LDS Church and become, let's say Jehovah's Witnesses, 
considered Sons of Perdition?

Thanks,
Jim

[Storm Rider]

On 5/10/2016 at 6:56 PM, theplains said:

Are temple-going Mormons who leave the LDS Church and become, let's say Jehovah's Witnesses, 
considered Sons of Perdition?

Thanks,
Jim

No.  To the best of my knowledge if a LDS joins another church or religion, even if it is a non-Christian religion, it would have no impact on being damned to outer darkness where the sons of perdition reside.  The only qualifier for being condemned to Outer Darkness is that the individual must have a sure knowledge of Jesus Christ and then reject the him and serve Satan.  

I can understand how some may confuse the issue - they are equating rejecting the Church with rejecting Jesus Christ - the problem with that position is that the vast majority of us live by faith; we are without a sure knowledge.  If they are teaching such a thing as you have proposed they are mistaken in a significant way.  It is not easy to become a son of perdition. 

Edited May 13, 2016 by Storm Rider

[Storm Rider]

3 hours ago, theplains said:

Are temple-going Mormons who leave the LDS Church and become, let's say Jehovah's Witnesses, 
considered Sons of Perdition?

Thanks,
Jim

Hello Jim,

I did some more research on this and I can readily see why there is confusion.  Several of the statements by general authorities, prophets, could easily lead individuals to conclude that those who apostatize form the Church of Jesus Christ will join Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition in hell.  

However, when I read all of their statements I still stand on by my statements.  I dislike, more strongly I reject completely, scare tactics.  They serve no purpose in my understanding of truth and pursuit of it.  I understand being zealous and having a sense of urgency to assist in the Lord's work to save all people.  Yet, I remain firm that the better path is to teach truth undefiled and without exaggeration.  Those who leave the Church lose the gift of the Holy Spirit, but they are in no wise cut off from the Holy Ghost completely or the Light of Christ, which remains with them as it does with all of God's children.  

I get chapped when I read silliness regardless of the individual or his calling in the Church.  As in all things it is context that leads to the proper conclusion.  Hope this helps. 

[rodheadlee]

4 hours ago, theplains said:

Are temple-going Mormons who leave the LDS Church and become, let's say Jehovah's Witnesses, 
considered Sons of Perdition?

Thanks,
Jim

Only God knows the answer to that particular person.

[theplains]

On 11/05/2016 at 10:45 PM, Storm Rider said:

Hello Jim,

I did some more research on this and I can readily see why there is confusion.  Several of the statements by general authorities, prophets, could easily lead individuals to conclude that those who apostatize form the Church of Jesus Christ will join Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition in hell.  

However, when I read all of their statements I still stand on by my statements.  I dislike, more strongly I reject completely, scare tactics.  They serve no purpose in my understanding of truth and pursuit of it.  I understand being zealous and having a sense of urgency to assist in the Lord's work to save all people.  Yet, I remain firm that the better path is to teach truth undefiled and without exaggeration.  Those who leave the Church lose the gift of the Holy Spirit, but they are in no wise cut off from the Holy Ghost completely or the Light of Christ, which remains with them as it does with all of God's children.  

I get chapped when I read silliness regardless of the individual or his calling in the Church.  As in all things it is context that leads to the proper conclusion.  Hope this helps. 

Thanks Storm Rider.

Jim

[Gray]

In the gospels, the unforgivable sin is to attribute the works of the Holy Spirit to the works of Satan. Some said that Jesus cast out demons by the power of Satan. That was, according to the text, unpardonable.

[JLHPROF]

On May 10, 2016 at 4:56 PM, theplains said:

Are temple-going Mormons who leave the LDS Church and become, let's say Jehovah's Witnesses, 
considered Sons of Perdition?

No.

The unpardonable sins take either far greater sin, or a betrayal of far greater light than the average member possesses.

[Avatar4321]

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 4:46 PM, CountryBoy said:

Evidence against the Church?

As a litigator, I would like to see definitive evidence

as a litigator, I would too. But then I've been looking for close to decades and have yet to find anything very convincing.

[Avatar4321]

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 4:53 PM, consiglieri said:

A related question might be, "With all the evidence for the Church, why is God still telling people to leave?"

he isnt

[Avatar4321]

On ‎5‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 10:02 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

I don't have Robert's expertise, but I knew number 3 above intuitively. That is why fussing over KJV quotations and phrasing in the Book of Mormon has always struck me as much ado about nothing. 

what I find more interesting is the fact that there are significant differences between the Book of Mormon passages and the king James version and that those differences show the Book of Mormon passages closer to the original text than the kjv. It's rather odd considering the nature of the BoM translation

 

[Avatar4321]

On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 10:56 AM, gopher said:

That's a great example.  Why is God confirming through spiritual means to at least some people that Joseph Smith is a prophet even though there appears to be evidence he is not?  whew, that's an awkward sentence, sorry. Hope it's clear.

because he is a prophet of God.

there is "evidence" that Jesus was a criminal. Doesn't change the fact that He was the most innocent to ever live.

[Gray]

This idea of "evidence" for or against the church is strange. Like arguing over what evidence exists that Styx is the best rock band ever. It's completely subjective. Seems like a category error to me.

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, Gray said:

This idea of "evidence" for or against the church is strange. Like arguing over what evidence exists that Styx is the best rock band ever. It's completely subjective. Seems like a category error to me.

Not the same thing. Either the Church is true or it isn't. It's not a subjective judgment.

And by the way, the Beatles, not Styx, are the best rock band ever.

 

[RevTestament]

On 5/4/2016 at 9:35 AM, Tacenda said:

I think you're right.  Or many, many people aren't getting the memo.  One percent or even less than one percent (?) are members of the LDS church?  Whoa, some people are really not trying to know the truth if so.  

1 Nephi 14:12

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

[theplains]

5 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

No.

The unpardonable sins take either far greater sin, or a betrayal of far greater light than the average member possesses.

The average LDS member is not temple-worthy right?

Jim