omni Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 (edited) 8 hours ago, smac97 said: I believe God can and does speak to people who adhere to other religious traditions. After all, a person is probably better off living according to the precepts of Buddhism than, say ditching religion altogether. That does not, however, mean that God’s communications to Buddhists are tantamount to, as some might put it, "spiritual confirmations that their church or belief system is the most correct one." I do not believe we are speaking of identical or interchangeable spiritual confirmations here. I don’t think God “confirms” to a Buddhist the reality of reincarnation, karma, and the Four Noble Truths, while simultaneously “confirming” to his Christian neighbor that Jesus Christ is “the way, the truth, and the life." To the extent God speaks to those in other faith traditions, I do not believe he confirms the verity of incorrect notions and traditions. I would encourage you to listen to the testimonies shared by members (some former LDS) of some of the polygamists groups. Just as we are encouraged to do, they are asking God in sincere prayer for answers to their prayers, and just like us they are receiving answers. The only difference is the Spirit is confirming their leader as the prophet or their particular church as Christ's one true church. Their experiences are remarkably similar to what one would hear at a typical LDS fast and testimony meeting. Why is God sending such mixed messages, or are these simply examples of confirmation bias? Edited May 4, 2016 by omni 1
JLHPROF Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 26 minutes ago, omni said: I would encourage you to listen to the testimonies shared by members (some former LDS) of some of the polygamists groups. Just as we are encouraged to do, they are asking God in sincere prayer for answers to their prayers, and they are receiving answers. Except the Spirit is confirming their leader as the prophet or their particular church as Christ's one true church. Their experiences are remarkably similar to what one would hear at a typical LDS fast and testimony meeting. Why is God sending such mixed messages, or are these simply examples of confirmation bias? I think that entirely depends on the group and the question being asked.
cinepro Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 (edited) 8 hours ago, smac97 said: I believe God can and does speak to people who adhere to other religious traditions. After all, a person is probably better off living according to the precepts of Buddhism than, say ditching religion altogether. That does not, however, mean that God’s communications to Buddhists are tantamount to, as some might put it, "spiritual confirmations that their church or belief system is the most correct one." I do not believe we are speaking of identical or interchangeable spiritual confirmations here. I don’t think God “confirms” to a Buddhist the reality of reincarnation, karma, and the Four Noble Truths, while simultaneously “confirming” to his Christian neighbor that Jesus Christ is “the way, the truth, and the life." To the extent God speaks to those in other faith traditions, I do not believe he confirms the verity of incorrect notions and traditions. Thanks, -Smac Do they know that? Honestly, if the Church is really what it claims to be (including having Temples that are the sole distributor of the "key words, the signs and tokens" that are required for "full exaltation"), the idea that God would inspire anyone to join another church (or stay in another Church) is a little silly. Sure, if they live in a circumstance where there is no physical way for them to hear the gospel, maybe it might be better for them to practice the local flavor of religion, but it seems to also happen in areas where there is a local LDS congregation. I would hope God would tell these people "Quit what you are doing and find the local Mormons ASAP!" If he is telling them anything else, that raises some questions about LDS exclusivity claims (and God's belief in these claims). And the theory that God would direct people to a less-true Church raises other questions. For example, if there are a subset of people that, for whatever reason, are supposed to attend churches that don't teach LDS doctrines or follow LDS standards, then the LDS Church is missing out on a tremendous opportunity. We should create another brand of Church that can attract these other people, so God can lead them to this down-market brand but their tithing would still go to the LDS corporate entity. This new Church would be like Toyota to the LDS "Lexus" brand. We're losing out on marketshare when God directs people to these other churches, and as a corporate Church, that just isn't acceptable. Edited May 4, 2016 by cinepro 3
Tacenda Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 2 hours ago, Jeanne said: i will never ...ever..deny the feelings that I had when I reactivated back into the church and studied, prayed and felt that spirit. And this intensity is what made my discoveries hurt so much. That being said, i can never deny those experiences since and now identify those feelings with a spiritual need and supplication to the Lord outside the walls of any church. I feel edified in what music I can still hear, nature, the love of literature of all kinds..and prayer. The HG as described in mormonism lives inside anyone that seeks a guiding light. You're so right, and I do feel something, but not as strong as it seems others do. I have often felt the Holy Ghost is in fact the Holy Spirit, or the Saviour letting us know He is still with us spiritually, after His crucifixion. I've felt this for many years, and before that it was a big question mark, and yearned to hear the HG speak to me. Now it's basically warm feelings, so I guess I feel the spirit, or Jesus, at least I'm hoping. Because I don't really like the idea of it being anything else. 1
carbon dioxide Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 14 hours ago, gopher said: Now, their story may not be remarkable to many. But with all that is going on today that is apparently convincing people the church isn't true (CES letter, CH1 changes, BYU honor code, grumpy apostles, church essays, etc.), why is God still continuing to tell people it is true and to be baptized? It does seem that Satan does get all the advantages in the world at this time. There is plenty of scientific evidence Satan points to cause disbelief and God withholds the evidence. God gave us witnesses for the Book of Mormon (which is good) but took the plates away. The manuscripts for the Book of Abraham were lost. Sometimes it seems that God is going out of his way to make things hard for us both being in the church and do missionary work. The only thing I can think of is God really is not concerned about how many members in the Church there are. He rather have a small, dedicated core group of people. If God wanted the Church to grow by millions in a year he could do it. All he would have to do is give the brass plates to the church. After it was scientifically proven that the plates are authentic and thousands of years old, a lot of people would join the church is large numbers as how could they refute it? Even better would be a pillar fire over a temple for a day or two. I guess we as members need to stop worrying about how big the Church is or growth of it. God sure does not seem to care about that. God cares about whether those that are in it are doing what they are asked and being faithful.
Tacenda Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 3 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: It does seem that Satan does get all the advantages in the world at this time. There is plenty of scientific evidence Satan points to cause disbelief and God withholds the evidence. God gave us witnesses for the Book of Mormon (which is good) but took the plates away. The manuscripts for the Book of Abraham were lost. Sometimes it seems that God is going out of his way to make things hard for us both being in the church and do missionary work. The only thing I can think of is God really is not concerned about how many members in the Church there are. He rather have a small, dedicated core group of people. If God wanted the Church to grow by millions in a year he could do it. All he would have to do is give the brass plates to the church. After it was scientifically proven that the plates are authentic and thousands of years old, a lot of people would join the church is large numbers as how could they refute it? Even better would be a pillar fire over a temple for a day or two. I guess we as members need to stop worrying about how big the Church is or growth of it. God sure does not seem to care about that. God cares about whether those that are in it are doing what they are asked and being faithful. Sure would be a lot easier to control that way.
carbon dioxide Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 6 hours ago, consiglieri said: It appears the witness is unable to answer my question, Your Honor. The prosecution rests. Edited to add: I am out of my allotment of comments for today, so it appears I will not be able to continue to point out Country Boy's desperate attempts to avoid answering the one question I asked. I will repeat the question here, just in case CB's obfuscation has caused him to forget it: How do lengthy New Testament passages in King James English manage to appear in the text of the Book of Mormon, a book allegedly written by a group of Israelite expatriates who left Jerusalem in 600 B.C. and the last of whom perished more than 1,000 years before the King James Bible came off the press? We are still waiting for your answer . . . Gee I wonder how any English managed to make it into the Text of the Book of Mormon? Are we to believe reformed Egyptian really is English? 1
cdowis Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, omni said: Their experiences are remarkably similar to what one would hear at a typical LDS fast and testimony meeting. A crystal ball is very similar to a seer stone. Why is God sending such mixed messages, or are these simply examples of confirmation bias? It is a matter that they have been deceived. I would say that my experience of spiritual confirmation is very different from theirs. You go to where the keys of the priesthood reside. Brigham Young was confirmed as the key holder of the priesthood, the records of the church resided in the church organization that he lead, and the line of the priesthood flows from him based on that basic doctrine. Edited May 4, 2016 by cdowis 1
cdowis Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 (edited) 6 hours ago, consiglieri said: It appears the witness is unable to answer my question, Your Honor. The prosecution rests. Edited to add: I am out of my allotment of comments for today, so it appears I will not be able to continue to point out Country Boy's desperate attempts to avoid answering the one question I asked. I will repeat the question here, just in case CB's obfuscation has caused him to forget it: How do lengthy New Testament passages in King James English manage to appear in the text of the Book of Mormon, a book allegedly written by a group of Israelite expatriates who left Jerusalem in 600 B.C. and the last of whom perished more than 1,000 years before the King James Bible came off the press? We are still waiting for your answer . . . ++++++++++++++++++++++==== The wait is over. The answer is really quite simple once you realize that the question itself is based on a false assumption/ premise. I give you the benefit of the doubt that you are capable of figuring it out for yourself. (Hint, the Bible and the Book of Mormon indicate that there are texts missing from our present copy of the Hebrew scriptures) Edited May 4, 2016 by cdowis
Stargazer Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 (edited) I am reminded of a very interesting conversion story I read once. It appeared in the first volume (I think) of the series by Hartman and Connie Rector, "No More Strangers." The story was told by a man who had been a protestant minister who had been studying with the missionaries. He recounted how he had been given a dream in which the Lord commended him for his work as a pastor, that it was something worthwhile that he was doing. He was told that he could remain in the beautiful garden that he had created, or he could "come with Me, and play for higher stakes." The reverend said that he was bothered that the Lord would 1) mix His metaphors like that, and 2) use the language of the gambler. But eventually, his growing testimony of the Book of Mormon caused him to, indeed, play for higher stakes and join the Church. I took from this story that there are some who perhaps can or even should stay where they are, but others who should not. There are so many good people of the world who do not hear the call, or cannot hear it. I'm certain that there will be many who choose another path in this life who will not be condemned for their choice. The main thing should always be this: go where the Spirit tells you. But be careful that it is the Spirit of the Lord that guides you. We are still responsible for our choices. We have such a really cool church, though! :-) And I still stand by my testimony that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only church upon the earth with all the keys and authority to dispense the ordinances of salvation, and it is in fact the Lord's Church. Edited May 4, 2016 by Stargazer 3
cdowis Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 Speaking of stories, here is one related by a professional antiMormon minister as he spoke in one of his seminars
Robert F. Smith Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 3 hours ago, omni said: I would encourage you to listen to the testimonies shared by members (some former LDS) of some of the polygamists groups. Just as we are encouraged to do, they are asking God in sincere prayer for answers to their prayers, and just like us they are receiving answers. The only difference is the Spirit is confirming their leader as the prophet or their particular church as Christ's one true church. Their experiences are remarkably similar to what one would hear at a typical LDS fast and testimony meeting. Why is God sending such mixed messages, or are these simply examples of confirmation bias? Confirmation bias is always a problem, as much in religion as in academic work. Moreover, it does not exist solely within the Restoration tradition, but within many religious traditions. At the same time, you make it sound as though only one single tradition could possibly be true in the absolute, logical sense. One might want to start with William James, The Variety of Religious Experience, as well as the various works of Joseph Campbell on worldwide myth and symbol, and finish with Fritjof Capra's The Tao of Physics. That way we don't have to take confirmation bias as the only explanation for everything, nor do we need to blame God for sending mixed messages. Instead, we might opt for the inherently subjective nature of all such beliefs, and the need for mutual respect among belief systems and believers. One need not be narrow and disrespectful of the various traditions. 1
cdowis Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Confirmation bias is always a problem, as much in religion as in academic work. Moreover, it does not exist solely within the Restoration tradition, but within many religious traditions. You are correct. Spiritual truths are not exclusive to the LDS church, and we never claim this. And God's spirit will speak to who are seeking those truths, regardless of their religion. All religions contain some aspects of the Gospel, but only the LDS church contains the fullness of that Gospel. 2
HappyJackWagon Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 20 hours ago, gopher said: Thanks, you made some good points. I'm trusting the women when they claimed their experiences were from God, not from emotion or misunderstanding. I don't believe they would have joined for any other reason. I just thought it was interesting that apparently God is still telling people to get baptized in the LDS church in spite of all its flaws that are identified here on this board. Every religion has problems. My main point was to say that if God is telling people to join the LDS church it appears He's also telling people to join other churches. Why not? If the church can help the person inch closer to God in some way then it is succeeding on some level. But that doesn't mean it is the Only true church.
Tacenda Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said: Every religion has problems. My main point was to say that if God is telling people to join the LDS church it appears He's also telling people to join other churches. Why not? If the church can help the person inch closer to God in some way then it is succeeding on some level. But that doesn't mean it is the Only true church. I think you're right. Or many, many people aren't getting the memo. One percent or even less than one percent (?) are members of the LDS church? Whoa, some people are really not trying to know the truth if so.
RevTestament Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: Every religion has problems. My main point was to say that if God is telling people to join the LDS church it appears He's also telling people to join other churches. Why not? If the church can help the person inch closer to God in some way then it is succeeding on some level. But that doesn't mean it is the Only true church. I think the Spirit would rather direct someone to another church which believes in Christ than for that person to be lost to Christ. To the extent that other churches teach correct principles of Christ, I believe the Spirit does confirm these principles, and they may feel the Spirit there. That doesn't mean they have the true priesthood or the opportunity to offer it to their ancestors. 1
carbon dioxide Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 6 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: Every religion has problems. My main point was to say that if God is telling people to join the LDS church it appears He's also telling people to join other churches. Why not? If the church can help the person inch closer to God in some way then it is succeeding on some level. But that doesn't mean it is the Only true church. That does seem to be a weird way of doing things. Almost like Apple telling people to buy non-Apple products with the hope that eventually they will migrate to Apple at some future event.
stemelbow Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 4 hours ago, Tacenda said: I think you're right. Or many, many people aren't getting the memo. One percent or even less than one percent (?) are members of the LDS church? Whoa, some people are really not trying to know the truth if so. Nobody knows the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Comparing people in terms of their knowledge of true things, it's like the closest to the full truth to the furthest are the tiniest bit a part. That's how I prefer to see it. COmparing the Prophet to he who is the worst on this planet, may seem to be worlds apart to our limited perspective, but they are probably within millimeters of each other in reality.
UtahTexan Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 19 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: The phraseology in many cases comes not only from the KJV, but also from earlier English bibles, a language which also dominates the Anglican Church's Book of Common Prayer. Three facts must be fully understood before one can deal adequately with this issue: 1) The Book of Mormon was composed in ancient Egyptian, not KJV English. However, it naturally included many quotations from ancient biblical texts, translated into an Egyptian form (Brass Plates). This is known as intertextuality, and it follows certain distinctive rules. 2) The NT Greek has long passages which are identical to the LXX Greek phrasing of the OT, which is further based upon the Hebrew text of the OT. During translation, the separate KJV committees doing the translating/adapting of old translations did not communicate, and so used separate English phrasing for certain passages -- thus leading those not understanding the Greek & Hebrew to erroneously think that the base text of the OT and NT are utterly different and unrelated. 3) A modern translator may use familiar phrasing wherever he wishes to do so. Right on into the 20th century, non-Mormon scholars continued to translate ancient Near Eastern texts using KJV style English -- without recriminations. Darn it,...was gonna get there if Consig woulda finished what he started.....or, better said, had not failed at what he started 1
cdowis Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 31 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: That does seem to be a weird way of doing things. Almost like Apple telling people to buy non-Apple products with the hope that eventually they will migrate to Apple at some future event. If you have a superior product, you would not be disturbed if consumers purchased the cheaper, inferior product and then move up to a high quality product. The consumer gets tired of the missing or flawed features of the inferior product. If one of my children were to leave the church and joined the Baptist church, I would not have a problem with that. I know that in the end they will discover what they are missing, but in the meantime their current spiritual needs are being met. 1
Jeanne Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 41 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: That does seem to be a weird way of doing things. Almost like Apple telling people to buy non-Apple products with the hope that eventually they will migrate to Apple at some future event. But I think that God would take one who is an alcoholic,, down trodden and in despair to the nearest church he could find. It is a journey..it took me a long time to figure out that churches can be good..but there is no one true church.
flameburns623 Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 18 hours ago, omni said: I would encourage you to listen to the testimonies shared by members (some former LDS) of some of the polygamists groups. Just as we are encouraged to do, they are asking God in sincere prayer for answers to their prayers, and just like us they are receiving answers. The only difference is the Spirit is confirming their leader as the prophet or their particular church as Christ's one true church. Their experiences are remarkably similar to what one would hear at a typical LDS fast and testimony meeting. Why is God sending such mixed messages, or are these simply examples of confirmation bias? Any links, Omni Linkletter?
consiglieri Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 23 hours ago, CountryBoy said: lol Again, you have failed miserably. 1. I was never a witness....I was the attorney. 2. I asked for a proffer...you failed. 3. I told you that you had the burden and make your point...all you did was ask a question...not a point. Yet another fail. My gosh.....all you have done is prove my point that you have no clue and that you cannot make your point properly for me to respond. Epic failure. But you are soooo adorable for being willing to fail so publicly If you are done preening, you might try to take a crack at answering my question. All the points are in the question. Or perhaps you failed to notice that . . .
consiglieri Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 20 hours ago, Stargazer said: OK, so CountryBoy asks for evidence against the Church. Consig says there's New Testament King James Version verbiage in the Book of Mormon, using legal terminology ("Exhibit") CountryBoy laughs at this "evidence" and asks for the foundation to be laid for the evidence. Instead of a foundation, or actual evidence, Consig just adds detail to his question. Then claims CountryBoy is dodging the question -- when Consig had been asked for evidence and instead provides a question. Note that Evidence =/= Questions. Since Consig isn't actually an attorney, perhaps he needs to know what "Foundation for Evidence" is at trial. The evidence is in the question. The only objection that could be made is that there are no New Testament King James Version quotations in the Book of Mormon. County Boy has not raised that objection because he knows that there are numerous New Testament King James Version quotations in the Book of Mormon. He just wants to put me to the trouble of proving what he already knows is true. Not very professional. And so Country boy ridicules me for not proving the point he already knows is true. And you jump on the bandwagon. This performance is quite revealing. Of both of you. And others . . .
consiglieri Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 20 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I thought consig claimed to be an attorney. In fact, he got testy one day when I said, "I understand you are some kind of lawyer." (He objected to the words "some kind of" for some reason I think that was the day you were claiming to be a journalist of some sort. That was a fun day.
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