With all the evidence against the LDS church, why is God still telling people to join?

[hope_for_things]

The value of religion from my perspective is very personal and unique.  When we try to universalize the human race, and expect that everyone's experiences are equally applicable, thats when we get into trouble.  If a church helps you to be a better person, and adds value to your life, it is a positive thing in my mind.  But that personal experience doesn't prove any exclusivity claims for any particular branch of religion or apply to everyone equally.  Glad these two sisters are able to find value in their Mormon journey.  

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

That is certainly not God or another third party voice which could be discernible to anyone else....

That's you, definitely: Always seeking to deny what he doesn't experience.  I would never try to tell another that he or she hadn't really experienced what they truly believed they experienced, even if I disagreed with them about the source.  For example, I truly believe that you have never heard one word from the Divine.  I take your word for it.  But I don't believe you can honestly state that what another experiences is "certainly not God".  It's your opinion, nothing more, and worthless to me, and them.  It's as if you were to profess your sincere love for your parent/child/husband/wife/partner, and I stood in your face and told you that "No you don't!  There is no love for you to feel!  There's no such thing as love -- the only thing you feel are chemical reactions in your brain!"  

Your pardon, I don't know if you are male, female, or other.

[CA Steve]

33 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I believe God can and does speak to people who adhere to other religious traditions.  After all, a person is probably better off living according to the precepts of Buddhism than, say ditching religion altogether.  That does not, however, mean that God’s communications to Buddhists are tantamount to, as some might put it, "spiritual confirmations that their church or belief system is the most correct one."  I do not believe we are speaking of identical or interchangeable spiritual confirmations here.  I don’t think God “confirms” to a Buddhist the reality of reincarnation, karma, and the Four Noble Truths, while simultaneously “confirming” to his Christian neighbor that Jesus Christ is “the way, the truth, and the life."  To the extent God speaks to those in other faith traditions, I do not believe he confirms the verity of incorrect notions and traditions.

We are told that “every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.”  (Moroni 7:13).  Thus, I think God may inspire a person to, say, become a Catholic nun.  Not because the Catholic Church is “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth” but because that woman’s individual circumstances are such that she is better off doing good and loving and serving God as a nun than not.

Nevertheless, our mandate remains to preach the Restored Gospel to all such persons.  If our belief system posits that Jesus Christ is “the way, the truth, and the life,” and that “no man cometh unto the Father, but by [him]” (John 14:6), that the LDS Church is “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth” (D&C 1:30) that we have been commanded to “call upon all nations, first upon the Gentiles, and then upon the Jews” (D&C 133:8), then it is our place to convert them (or, rather, to facilitate and assist in the conversion process).  The LDS Church has exclusivistic truth claims.  It claims to be more than merely one choice amongst a plethora of equally acceptable choices in the eyes of God.  It claims to be more than “first among equals.”  It claims to be the Church of Jesus Christ.  

I don’t think God intended the LDS Church to go out into the world and preach the Restored Gospel empty-handed.  Nor does He expect others to accept it on a “Well, this religion is just as good as the next, I suppose” basis.  I believe there are truths, and evidences supporting those truths, to be found in the LDS Church and nowhere else.  Hence we have things available to us as Latter-day Saints which, collectively, are not found anywhere else.  The Book of Mormon.  The Book of Mormon.  The Testimony of the Three Witnesses.  The Testimony of the Eight Witnesses.  The Doctrine & Covenants.  President Monson, and the other living prophets and apostles.  Priesthood authority.  Temple ordinances.  Continuing revelation.  Personal revelation.

Thanks,

-Smac

God doesn't inspire people to join other religions?

[Ahab]

4 hours ago, gopher said:

... with all that is going on today that is apparently convincing people the church isn't true (CES letter, CH1 changes, BYU honor code, grumpy apostles, church essays, etc.), why is God still continuing to tell people it is true and to be baptized?

You're asking ALL OF US to tell you why God is doing something???

I think you only need to ask him.

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, gopher said:

Thanks, you made some good points.  I'm trusting the women when they claimed their experiences were from God, not from emotion or misunderstanding.  I don't believe they would have joined for any other reason.  I just thought it was interesting that apparently God is still telling people to get baptized in the LDS church in spite of all its flaws that are identified here on this board.

This Board is not reflective of the body of the saints.  It is rather novel and the topics run almost entirely about what is wrong with the Church - from hurt feelings, its history, to the new social innovations being recast as "rights" as it happens as if these rights always existed and there was some new push against a very small subset of the populace.  We appear to be more about defense against the critics from within or those who have left and yet cannot really leave it alone.

This is one of the very few posts that begins to talk about something positive, the actual working of the Spirit in the lives of individuals. We get very few of these articles.

[Storm Rider]

56 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

The value of religion from my perspective is very personal and unique.  When we try to universalize the human race, and expect that everyone's experiences are equally applicable, thats when we get into trouble.  If a church helps you to be a better person, and adds value to your life, it is a positive thing in my mind.  But that personal experience doesn't prove any exclusivity claims for any particular branch of religion or apply to everyone equally.  Glad these two sisters are able to find value in their Mormon journey.  

I disagree with the premise.  It confuses the social structure with the actual eternal truths taught.  I believe that all religions teach some eternal truths - living those truths brings happiness.  Being comfortable within a milieu of people is something else.  I have been with some wards that were not a good social fit for me, but I was still able to worship and learn.  I just did not enjoy the ward.  

Exclusivity has existed since God said this is my covenant people - that continues to this day.  God did not change his process. 

[Storm Rider]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

A salesman came to my door and showed me the most amazing vacuum cleaning and shampooer.  I was amazed at what my vacuum left behind.  I was ready to buy it on the spot, but the price was so high, I decided to hold back until I spoke with my husband.  Later I spoke with others and one person liked the vacuum, and others said they didn't like how they were treated when they wanted to return it.  They saw another side.  We've yet to buy the vacuum after hearing some outside information on it.  

My true life experience can be compared to the OP story in a way.  I've nearly always felt the spirit when I'm around the missionaries. But when I attend my ward's weekly meetings, I don't feel it nearly as much.  I think the missionaries are spiritual giants in the mission field, they have a love of the people that just beams.  And a love of the church and gospel. 

Could this love have just made the spirit swell within these women?  I don't know, but I hope when they join the church they don't get sideswiped by members, church history, etc.  But they could very well join and live happily ever after for sure!!  And maybe God thought they'd be happy in our church vs. their former church.  Because that church sounds terribly abusive.  Too bad our church has it's flaws too, and some feel it can be abusive...saw this on Bill Reels' website.  

  http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2016/05/church-farther-figure/

Not to put a damper on the OP, but why the discrepancies?  

A guy selling a product and then reading about what other buyers have experienced is a distinct cup of tea from what typically happens in the Church missionary program.  When the Holy Ghost guides - he is the reference with none better.  There is not person to talk to for a reference to confirm the Holy Spirit.  

Your analogy removes the Godhead from the formula completely.  Who would encourage that type of thinking?  It is not the Holy Ghost.  

I wish the saints were perfect, but they are not.  They are people like you and me and we know how poorly we do things; why discrepancies?  We have only to look in the mirror.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, gopher said:

I should have left out the grumpy apostle bit.  I wanted to list a few of the recent controversial topics discussed on this board.  After typing two serious paragraphs, my sarcastic/witty side kicked in.  I like your mention of the parable of the sowers.  I think it applies very well in this case.

The "grumpy apostle" bit made me chuckle. It added some entertaining lightness to an already superb post.

Edited to add:

It caused me to reflect: Is fussing over the apostle's alleged grumpiness a "pat-a-cake" issue of the sort that made the apostle grumpy in the first place?

Edited May 3, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[gopher]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

You're asking ALL OF US to tell you why God is doing something???

I think you only need to ask him.

I have enjoyed reading and thinking about the various responses even though I believe I already know the answer.  That doesn't mean I can't still learn something new.

[smac97]

On 5/3/2016 at 0:00 PM, CA Steve said:

God doesn't inspire people to join other religions?

I didn't say that.

Thanks,

-Smac

[hope_for_things]

32 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I disagree with the premise.  It confuses the social structure with the actual eternal truths taught.  I believe that all religions teach some eternal truths - living those truths brings happiness.  Being comfortable within a milieu of people is something else.  I have been with some wards that were not a good social fit for me, but I was still able to worship and learn.  I just did not enjoy the ward.  

Exclusivity has existed since God said this is my covenant people - that continues to this day.  God did not change his process. 

Obviously some religions believe they have God's exclusive blessings.  Lets set aside the argument about whether a religion can objectively prove it has God's exclusive blessing or not, or authority, and lets look at this from another perspective.  

How valuable to the immeasurably diverse human race is the concept of exclusivity?  Putting away salvation theory and all the trappings of exclusivity completely, and then trying to measure the worth of this concept.  It can unite groups that believe similarly, which improves loyalty and cohesiveness for the in group.  But it has a very polarizing effect on everyone else.  It fosters group think, which has negative effects on the group's ability to innovate.  Looking at this same concept in the business world, the trend is to increase diversity of thought as a competitive advantage.  

Lots of different ways to look at this concept outside the traditional, I'm right and you're wrong, my Dad is tougher than your Dad approach.  

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, gopher said:

I have enjoyed reading and thinking about the various responses even though I believe I already know the answer.  That doesn't mean I can't still learn something new.

When or if you do, on this issue, please let me know.

I already know why he tells people to join the church of his son, Jesus, although for some reason not everybody accepts his counsel to do that.

[CA Steve]

20 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I didn't say that.

Thanks,

-Smac

Nor did you answer the question.

 

 

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

God doesn't inspire people to join other religions?

 

25 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I didn't say that.

Thanks,

-Smac

Indeed.

 

If that's what you got out of what Smac wrote, then you need to read it again ... with all due respect, for comprehension this time.

[UtahTexan]

Evidence against the Church?

As a litigator, I would like to see definitive evidence

[Stargazer]

2 minutes ago, CountryBoy said:

Evidence against the Church?

As a litigator, I would like to see definitive evidence

You mean to tell me, counselor, that hearsay evidence is not acceptable?  Shocking!

[consiglieri]

6 hours ago, gopher said:

Now, their story may not be remarkable to many.  But with all that is going on today that is apparently convincing people the church isn't true (CES letter, CH1 changes, BYU honor code, grumpy apostles, church essays, etc.), why is God still continuing to tell people it is true and to be baptized?

A related question might be, "With all the evidence for the Church, why is God still telling people to leave?"

[UtahTexan]

4 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

You mean to tell me, counselor, that hearsay evidence is not acceptable?  Shocking!

lol

I can find "evidence" against almost anything...If one wants to find evidence...they can.....whether it is good evidence or not.....whether it is reliable or not.  

[consiglieri]

9 minutes ago, CountryBoy said:

Evidence against the Church?

As a litigator, I would like to see definitive evidence

Exhibit A--NT KJV in BOM.

[UtahTexan]

1 minute ago, consiglieri said:

Exhibit A--NT KJV in BOM.

lol...that is your evidence?

Ok....since you are acting like an attorney....lay your foundation.  

[consiglieri]

1 minute ago, CountryBoy said:

lol...that is your evidence?

Ok....since you are acting like an attorney....lay your foundation.  

Let me ask you one question, then:

How do lengthy New Testament passages in King James English manage to appear in the text of the Book of Mormon, a book allegedly written by a group of Israelite expatriates who left Jerusalem in 600 B.C. and the last of whom perished more than 1,000 years before the King James Bible came off the press?

And since you acting like an attorney, I will expect your response to approximate reasonableness.

[Ahab]

:smiley munching on popcorn:

[UtahTexan]

18 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

Let me ask you one question, then:

How do lengthy New Testament passages in King James English manage to appear in the text of the Book of Mormon, a book allegedly written by a group of Israelite expatriates who left Jerusalem in 600 B.C. and the last of whom perished more than 1,000 years before the King James Bible came off the press?

And since you acting like an attorney, I will expect your response to approximate reasonableness.

Darn...since you were so bold, I thought you knew what you were doing.  First, that is not an offer of proof of an exhibit.  Second, since you are alleging something amiss, you have to prove your point.  You have done neither.

[consiglieri]

17 minutes ago, CountryBoy said:

Darn...since you were so bold, I thought you knew what you were doing.  First, that is not an offer of proof of an exhibit.  Second, since you are alleging something amiss, you have to prove your point.  You have done neither.

Instead, I have chosen to ask one simple question.

A question it seems you are determined to dodge.

[smac97]

On 5/3/2016 at 1:41 PM, CA Steve said:

Nor did you answer the question.

Correct.  Regarding that question ("God doesn't inspire people to join other religions?"), I am not sure we have revealed light and knowledge on the subject.  If so, we are left with our own reasonings and conjecture, which I am not presently willing to share.

Thanks,

-Smac