Popular Post sjdawg Posted April 20, 2016 Popular Post Posted April 20, 2016 (edited) This will probably get let locked immediately as that seems to be the trend currently on honor roll threads but I just wanted to commend BYU for their decision to review the way the honor code is applied in cases of sexual assault. It is a complex issue and I'm not certain there is an easy answer. Regardless of whether or not changes are made to the BYU process I'm happy to see that the issue is being looked at and discussed. Edited April 20, 2016 by sjdawg 10
JulieM Posted April 20, 2016 Posted April 20, 2016 7 minutes ago, sjdawg said: This will probably get let locked immediately as that seems to be the trend currently on honor roll threads but I just wanted to commend BYU for their decision to review the way the honor code is applied in cases of sexual assault. It is a complex issue and I'm not certain there is an easy answer. Regardless of whether or not changes are made to the BYU process I'm happy to see that the issue is being looked at and discussed. I hope this thread isn't locked. I think it's such an important issue and I am so happy BYU is doing this. Do you have a link or source where I can read more about it?
Popular Post Storm Rider Posted April 20, 2016 Popular Post Posted April 20, 2016 I guess I can be relatively pessimistic. I suspect that whatever happens there will be a loud denunciation of the process and the result. They are evil; they did not listen; they did not go far enough; they went too far; they did not listen to "me"; I am not happy; etc., etc., etc. The whole episode leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I am disenchanted that there are students at BYU that not only don't follow the Honor Code, but aren't even interested in living the standards of the Church. Why are they there? Cheap tuition? Shame on them. In our HP group meeting this week I was talking with one of the brothers. His son, a 4.0 student and an athlete, was just notified that he was not accepted at BYU. There was some sadness and a voiced wish that the Church had more universities throughout the United States. I know this young man - he is an outstanding fellow and one that I would be completely confident that he would naturally follow the Honor Code and standards of the Church. When we have youth that don't care about those things, I have little patience allowing them to take the place of other young people like this young man. If you have a wild hair - don't go to BYU. You will pay more, but you will at least have integrity and honesty. 5
JAHS Posted April 20, 2016 Posted April 20, 2016 9 minutes ago, JulieM said: Do you have a link or source where I can read more about it? "Under current policy, the university investigates students who report sexual assault for violations of the school’s strict honor code, which bans premarital sex, same-sex dating, alcohol consumption and being in the bedroom of someone of the opposite sex, among other things. This means a student who reports a sexual assault could end up being placed on probation, suspended or expelled if BYU finds them to have been in violation of the honor code." However, the school told HuffPost in a statement that a rape victim will never be “referred to the Honor Code Office for being a victim of sexual assault.” BYU Pressured To Stop Investigating Rape Victims For Honor Code Violations BYU Student Says School Is Punishing Her for Reporting Rape
sjdawg Posted April 20, 2016 Author Posted April 20, 2016 27 minutes ago, JulieM said: I hope this thread isn't locked. I think it's such an important issue and I am so happy BYU is doing this. Do you have a link or source where I can read more about it? http://www.sltrib.com/home/3792172-155/byu-says-it-will-review-honor Even if no changes are made opening the dialogue is so important. 1
Okrahomer Posted April 20, 2016 Posted April 20, 2016 18 minutes ago, JulieM said: I hope this thread isn't locked. I think it's such an important issue and I am so happy BYU is doing this. Do you have a link or source where I can read more about it? KSL Report DN Report Good4Utah Report Huffington Post Report SL Trib Report 1
sjdawg Posted April 20, 2016 Author Posted April 20, 2016 15 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: I guess I can be relatively pessimistic. I suspect that whatever happens there will be a loud denunciation of the process and the result. They are evil; they did not listen; they did not go far enough; they went too far; they did not listen to "me"; I am not happy; etc., etc., etc. The whole episode leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I am disenchanted that there are students at BYU that not only don't follow the Honor Code, but aren't even interested in living the standards of the Church. Why are they there? Cheap tuition? Shame on them. In our HP group meeting this week I was talking with one of the brothers. His son, a 4.0 student and an athlete, was just notified that he was not accepted at BYU. There was some sadness and a voiced wish that the Church had more universities throughout the United States. I know this young man - he is an outstanding fellow and one that I would be completely confident that he would naturally follow the Honor Code and standards of the Church. When we have youth that don't care about those things, I have little patience allowing them to take the place of other young people like this young man. If you have a wild hair - don't go to BYU. You will pay more, but you will at least have integrity and honesty. Wow, that is a pessimistic view. Even people who are interested in living the standards of the church and want to follow the honor code may have temporary lapses in judgement. Mistakes happen. One of the rarely mentioned but important issues in my opinion is the impact that the honor code office may have on the repentance process. I have read where many people delay confessions to their bishop while at BYU due to a fear of losing their endorsement to attend BYU. I wonder if the honor code is having an unintended effect on impeding the repentance process for those who have made genuine mistakes. Just a thought. Not advocating for the removal of the honor code. Just noting that it is a complex issue. I do believe there are other universities with some type of "honor code" who ensure amnesty in order to promote reporting of sexual abuse. BYU may be criticized during and after the review (from either side) but I think they are doing the the correct thing by taking a time out and reviewing their policy. 3
Calm Posted April 20, 2016 Posted April 20, 2016 Original annoucement: https://news.byu.edu/news/president-worthen-calls-study-title-ix-reporting-processes-and-structure 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted April 20, 2016 Posted April 20, 2016 All I can say on this subject is the girl did nothing wrong. She is a victim and no one should be victim shamed. 3
The Nehor Posted April 20, 2016 Posted April 20, 2016 33 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: All I can say on this subject is the girl did nothing wrong. She is a victim and no one should be victim shamed. She did do something wrong. She promised to follow a code and did not. Admittedly that is a minor sin by comparison to the heinous sin committed against her which should be treated with much more seriousness. Furthermore any suggestion that she deserved it for her mistakes means that said suggestee is a terrible person who presumably also supports the death penalty for jaywalkers. 3
Meadowchik Posted April 20, 2016 Posted April 20, 2016 3 hours ago, JAHS said: "Under current policy, the university investigates students who report sexual assault for violations of the school’s strict honor code, which bans premarital sex, same-sex dating, alcohol consumption and being in the bedroom of someone of the opposite sex, among other things. This means a student who reports a sexual assault could end up being placed on probation, suspended or expelled if BYU finds them to have been in violation of the honor code." However, the school told HuffPost in a statement that a rape victim will never be “referred to the Honor Code Office for being a victim of sexual assault.” BYU Pressured To Stop Investigating Rape Victims For Honor Code Violations BYU Student Says School Is Punishing Her for Reporting Rape When a person says they've been raped, the listener must be reasonably skeptical, otherwise they are assuming the guilt of another person. Here in internet world, it is customary to reasonably take another person at their word if they want advice to want to vent about a problem. If a person on an internet board comes forward and says they're a victim, it is easy to believe them and try to be helpful of empathetic. Yet if we're asked to determine the veracity of their claim against another, and when we're asked to act on that decision, it's a terrible burden. So, when the Honor Code Office hears that a person says she/he has been raped, then they know a crime has likely been committed, but they do not yet know by whom, but in the meantime, they may already know by way of confession if other crimes have been committed or rules have been broken.
Tacenda Posted April 20, 2016 Posted April 20, 2016 13 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: When a person says they've been raped, the listener must be reasonably skeptical, otherwise they are assuming the guilt of another person. Here in internet world, it is customary to reasonably take another person at their word if they want advice to want to vent about a problem. If a person on an internet board comes forward and says they're a victim, it is easy to believe them and try to be helpful of empathetic. Yet if we're asked to determine the veracity of their claim against another, and when we're asked to act on that decision, it's a terrible burden. So, when the Honor Code Office hears that a person says she/he has been raped, then they know a crime has likely been committed, but they do not yet know by whom, but in the meantime, they may already know by way of confession if other crimes have been committed or rules have been broken. My brother was put in prison years ago by his ex fiancee who told the police my brother kidnapped and raped her, I'll never forget the surreal feeling of seeing my brother's face on the channel 13 afternoon news. It was a horrible time in my family's life, my mom was in the middle stages of Alzheimer's too but that was a mixed blessing, if she'd been fully aware it would have killed her. It turns out after my brother served for several years this ex fiancee went to my dad and admitted she made up the story, of course they were drinking so who knows what happened. She came to my dad and told him she was sorry and that she didn't tell the whole truth but wanted to provide my brother a truck and a place to live etc. So they live together and afterwards break up over and over again. But prison life changed my brother. He's been in and out of jail over the years due to intoxication and this girl always calling the police on him. Recently I got a letter from my brother from jail. He's going to see about pressing charges against her for putting him in prison with a false accusation the first time. We only learned later that she had lied. It caused a rift in my siblings relationships. A couple of my sister's still won't talk to him for having put my parents through so much. I know he isn't totally blameless, or maybe he is as far as her lying. But does have an alcohol problem, and could have curbed so much in his life without it. Sorry this post is so long, but do see the side of looking at both people and making sure someone isn't falsely accused. 2
Bernard Gui Posted April 20, 2016 Posted April 20, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, sjdawg said: Wow, that is a pessimistic view. Even people who are interested in living the standards of the church and want to follow the honor code may have temporary lapses in judgement. Mistakes happen. One of the rarely mentioned but important issues in my opinion is the impact that the honor code office may have on the repentance process. I have read where many people delay confessions to their bishop while at BYU due to a fear of losing their endorsement to attend BYU. I wonder if the honor code is having an unintended effect on impeding the repentance process for those who have made genuine mistakes. Just a thought. Not advocating for the removal of the honor code. Just noting that it is a complex issue. True repentance does not follow a timetable set for the convenience of the repentant. This would seem to make a mockery of the atonement. Without a doubt it is a mockery of the Honor Code. How would this in any way be honorable, honest, or just? Edited April 20, 2016 by Bernard Gui
sjdawg Posted April 20, 2016 Author Posted April 20, 2016 3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: True repentance does not follow a timetable set for the convenience of the repentant. This would seem to be a mockery of the atonement. You won' get any argument from me.
Bernard Gui Posted April 20, 2016 Posted April 20, 2016 (edited) 16 minutes ago, sjdawg said: You won' get any argument from me. Elder Oaks decisively put this to rest... https://www.lds.org/ensign/1992/07/sin-and-suffering?lang=eng Quote We are concerned that some people have a very lax attitude toward sin. Some young people say, “I’ll just have a few free ones, and then I’ll repent quickly and go on a mission [or get married in the temple], and everything will be all right.” [[or finish my BYU degree!]] Young people are not the only ones with a lax attitude toward sin. We know of mature members of the Church who commit serious transgressions knowingly and deliberately, relying on their supposed ability to repent speedily and be “as good as new.” Such persons want the present convenience or enjoyment of sin and the future effects of righteousness, in that order. They want to experience the sin but avoid its effects. The Book of Mormon describes such persons: “And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die [[we will get our degree]]; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.” (2 Ne. 28:8.) The attitudes and positions of such persons are exactly opposite those of the Savior, who never experienced sin, but whose atoning sacrifice subjected him to all of its anguish. Edited April 20, 2016 by Bernard Gui 1
sjdawg Posted April 20, 2016 Author Posted April 20, 2016 23 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Elder Oaks decisively put this to rest... https://www.lds.org/ensign/1992/07/sin-and-suffering?lang=eng Again, you will get no argument from me.
Meadowchik Posted April 20, 2016 Posted April 20, 2016 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: My brother was put in prison years ago by his ex fiancee who told the police my brother kidnapped and raped her, I'll never forget the surreal feeling of seeing my brother's face on the channel 13 afternoon news. It was a horrible time in my family's life, my mom was in the middle stages of Alzheimer's too but that was a mixed blessing, if she'd been fully aware it would have killed her. It turns out after my brother served for several years this ex fiancee went to my dad and admitted she made up the story, of course they were drinking so who knows what happened. She came to my dad and told him she was sorry and that she didn't tell the whole truth but wanted to provide my brother a truck and a place to live etc. So they live together and afterwards break up over and over again. But prison life changed my brother. He's been in and out of jail over the years due to intoxication and this girl always calling the police on him. Recently I got a letter from my brother from jail. He's going to see about pressing charges against her for putting him in prison with a false accusation the first time. We only learned later that she had lied. It caused a rift in my siblings relationships. A couple of my sister's still won't talk to him for having put my parents through so much. I know he isn't totally blameless, or maybe he is as far as her lying. But does have an alcohol problem, and could have curbed so much in his life without it. Sorry this post is so long, but do see the side of looking at both people and making sure someone isn't falsely accused. That is horrible. I wish the best for your brother. 2
Gray Posted April 20, 2016 Posted April 20, 2016 (edited) 7 hours ago, Storm Rider said: I guess I can be relatively pessimistic. I suspect that whatever happens there will be a loud denunciation of the process and the result. They are evil; they did not listen; they did not go far enough; they went too far; they did not listen to "me"; I am not happy; etc., etc., etc. The whole episode leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I am disenchanted that there are students at BYU that not only don't follow the Honor Code, but aren't even interested in living the standards of the Church. Why are they there? Cheap tuition? Shame on them. In our HP group meeting this week I was talking with one of the brothers. His son, a 4.0 student and an athlete, was just notified that he was not accepted at BYU. There was some sadness and a voiced wish that the Church had more universities throughout the United States. I know this young man - he is an outstanding fellow and one that I would be completely confident that he would naturally follow the Honor Code and standards of the Church. When we have youth that don't care about those things, I have little patience allowing them to take the place of other young people like this young man. If you have a wild hair - don't go to BYU. You will pay more, but you will at least have integrity and honesty. That's an odd thing to focus on. It's much more disenchanting that there are students at BYU who are not only raping their fellow students, but getting away with it. That's infinitely more serious than word of wisdom or curfew violation. It's also infinitely more serious than consensual premarital sex. Edited April 20, 2016 by Gray 4
Gray Posted April 20, 2016 Posted April 20, 2016 (edited) 6 hours ago, sjdawg said: Wow, that is a pessimistic view. Even people who are interested in living the standards of the church and want to follow the honor code may have temporary lapses in judgement. Mistakes happen. One of the rarely mentioned but important issues in my opinion is the impact that the honor code office may have on the repentance process. I have read where many people delay confessions to their bishop while at BYU due to a fear of losing their endorsement to attend BYU. I wonder if the honor code is having an unintended effect on impeding the repentance process for those who have made genuine mistakes. Just a thought. Not advocating for the removal of the honor code. Just noting that it is a complex issue. The honor code provides strong incentive to delay repentance. One of its many unintended consequences. And of course it seems to foster an atmosphere of judging and tattling, and even false reports of honor code violations as a way of getting revenge on people (my opinion, based on anecdotal evidence) Edited April 20, 2016 by Gray 2
sjdawg Posted April 20, 2016 Author Posted April 20, 2016 3 hours ago, Tacenda said: My brother was put in prison years ago by his ex fiancee who told the police my brother kidnapped and raped her, I'll never forget the surreal feeling of seeing my brother's face on the channel 13 afternoon news. It was a horrible time in my family's life, my mom was in the middle stages of Alzheimer's too but that was a mixed blessing, if she'd been fully aware it would have killed her. It turns out after my brother served for several years this ex fiancee went to my dad and admitted she made up the story, of course they were drinking so who knows what happened. She came to my dad and told him she was sorry and that she didn't tell the whole truth but wanted to provide my brother a truck and a place to live etc. So they live together and afterwards break up over and over again. But prison life changed my brother. He's been in and out of jail over the years due to intoxication and this girl always calling the police on him. Recently I got a letter from my brother from jail. He's going to see about pressing charges against her for putting him in prison with a false accusation the first time. We only learned later that she had lied. It caused a rift in my siblings relationships. A couple of my sister's still won't talk to him for having put my parents through so much. I know he isn't totally blameless, or maybe he is as far as her lying. But does have an alcohol problem, and could have curbed so much in his life without it. Sorry this post is so long, but do see the side of looking at both people and making sure someone isn't falsely accused. That is an awful story. I'm sorry your family and brother went through that. I believe statistically the rate of reports for false rapes is between 2-8%. Not a high percentage but too substantial to completely discount. One innocent person in jail is too many 1
Robert F. Smith Posted April 20, 2016 Posted April 20, 2016 3 hours ago, sjdawg said: That is an awful story. I'm sorry your family and brother went through that. I believe statistically the rate of reports for false rapes is between 2-8%. Not a high percentage but too substantial to completely discount. One innocent person in jail is too many First of all, many rapes are never reported. Of those reported, some women refuse to allow a rape examination by a doctor, and so no rape kit is prepared. Without a rape kit, a prosecutor has little evidence and will not likely take the case to court. Of those which actually go to trial, some women refuse to testify. Those who do testify sometimes misidentify the rapist. With DNA evidence, those cases are now less of a problem. However, even at 2 to 8% of false claims, that is actually a lot of men facing prison time for a crime they did not commit. Police and prosecutors cannot take that lightly.
Buckeye Posted April 20, 2016 Posted April 20, 2016 (edited) I'm glad this thread is still allowed to be open. I assumed that mine was closed because it better fit in the "news" category. FWIW, this story is now frontpage national news: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/04/20/brigham-young-university-under-fire-for-disciplining-a-sexual-assault-victim-for-honor-code-breach/ http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/byu-student-says-school-punishing-her-reporting-rape-n558511 http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2016/04/15/byu_s_honor_code_sometimes_punishes_survivors_who_report_their_rapes.html http://www.cbsnews.com/news/student-madi-barney-byu-rape-title-ix-federal-complaint/ Edited April 20, 2016 by Buckeye
hope_for_things Posted April 20, 2016 Posted April 20, 2016 I think its time that the whole honor code be re-evaluted. Put all the pros and cons on the table for the existing policies and practices. No assumptions about tradition. No hard fast conclusions that because something is a church standard, that it must be enforced in a particular way. Even little bugaboos like facial hair and dress code should be re-evaluated. I hope the school takes the time to consider all the consequences of the previous honor code policy, and determines what the best direction is to go in the future. Is BYU a place where compulsion, spying and outward appearances are values that they want to foster? I hope they take a pragmatic approach and think about what values they want to promote at the end of the day. I'm hopeful for change, it certainly is needed. 2
Jeanne Posted April 20, 2016 Posted April 20, 2016 12 hours ago, sjdawg said: This will probably get let locked immediately as that seems to be the trend currently on honor roll threads but I just wanted to commend BYU for their decision to review the way the honor code is applied in cases of sexual assault. It is a complex issue and I'm not certain there is an easy answer. Regardless of whether or not changes are made to the BYU process I'm happy to see that the issue is being looked at and discussed. Kudos for a review. I will always commend the church and BYU for submitting or reviewing some changes. This is always positive. 1
Jeanne Posted April 20, 2016 Posted April 20, 2016 1 hour ago, hope_for_things said: I think its time that the whole honor code be re-evaluted. Put all the pros and cons on the table for the existing policies and practices. No assumptions about tradition. No hard fast conclusions that because something is a church standard, that it must be enforced in a particular way. Even little bugaboos like facial hair and dress code should be re-evaluated. I hope the school takes the time to consider all the consequences of the previous honor code policy, and determines what the best direction is to go in the future. Is BYU a place where compulsion, spying and outward appearances are values that they want to foster? I hope they take a pragmatic approach and think about what values they want to promote at the end of the day. I'm hopeful for change, it certainly is needed. I agree. And you know, I think you can have an honor code that doesn't require so much judgement for things that are so minor in view of a new age and concepts. There are some specifics that might be better done away with without hurting the basic perception of the church and BYU. 1
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