Storm Rider Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 13 hours ago, Jeanne said: At this point, what difference would the punishments make??? Jeanne, although two others have provided a response I will add to their helpful statements. It has been alleged that young women are "in fear" of reporting their rape because of a potential conflict or punishment from the Honor Code office. However, if the punishment is so light that it is negligible for a reasonable person then stating that young women are in fear is not true. That young women are not reporting their rape because of fear of the Honor Code, but for other reasons more common in the US. Of course, if this is true then all of the accusations about the Honor Code at BYU is really an attack based on something else other than the protection of young women after being raped. Why do you think people would attack BYU? Neither of us has to guess many times.
JulieM Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 (edited) 16 hours ago, Storm Rider said: Has anyone explained the punishments for CH violations? For example, if a student was drinking alcoholic beverages? Doing Drugs? Having sex? Are there clear punishments known by all the students or is it more flexible and the same actions do not necessarily indicate the same punishments depending on circumstances? The allegation is that women who are raped and who have also violated the Honor Code are so threatened by an Honor Code action that they do not report. I am curious about what the punishments are that are threatening these young women. Some have not been allowed to register for classes their next semester and their education was put on hold. Have you followed any of the stories here? Edited April 30, 2016 by JulieM 1
Storm Rider Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 Just now, JulieM said: Some have not been allowed to register for classes their next semester and their education put on hold. Have you followed any of the stories here? I know it is a surprise for you, but yes I have as well as those wonderful stories in the media. I know that young women have said and a great many others have reported there is this huge fear that is keeping young women from facing Honor Code violations. My question revolves around where this fear comes from and is it realistic to be fearful. Not facing the HC committee and then being punished for it is a different issue. Do you see the distinction? Do you by chance read what I wrote? IF the penalty is not severe AFTER the Honor Code violation has been reviewed, what is the problem with reporting immediately? It could be that reporting a rape is about more than the Honor Code - do you see the distinction? Blaming the HC for not reporting a rape is incorrect. The reality is that 60% of rapes in the nation are not reported. It should come as no surprise that there is not an Honor Code in the world at large - so the reasons rape is not reported is not solely because BYU has an Honor Code. Do you agree or does this make sense to you?
Tacenda Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 2 hours ago, Storm Rider said: Jeanne, although two others have provided a response I will add to their helpful statements. It has been alleged that young women are "in fear" of reporting their rape because of a potential conflict or punishment from the Honor Code office. However, if the punishment is so light that it is negligible for a reasonable person then stating that young women are in fear is not true. That young women are not reporting their rape because of fear of the Honor Code, but for other reasons more common in the US. Of course, if this is true then all of the accusations about the Honor Code at BYU is really an attack based on something else other than the protection of young women after being raped. Why do you think people would attack BYU? Neither of us has to guess many times. Many of the girls interviewed said they felt the reputation of the school stood head and shoulders over rape victims. 1
JulieM Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: I know it is a surprise for you, but yes I have as well as those wonderful stories in the media. I know that young women have said and a great many others have reported there is this huge fear that is keeping young women from facing Honor Code violations. My question revolves around where this fear comes from and is it realistic to be fearful. Not facing the HC committee and then being punished for it is a different issue. Do you see the distinction? Do you by chance read what I wrote? IF the penalty is not severe AFTER the Honor Code violation has been reviewed, what is the problem with reporting immediately? It could be that reporting a rape is about more than the Honor Code - do you see the distinction? Blaming the HC for not reporting a rape is incorrect. I'm sure it's not the only reason some rapes aren't reported, but for others it is the reason they were afraid to report it. Just being investigated by the HC office is traumatic and embarrassing, even if they are not found guilty of any violations. Their education is also put on hold and some have not been allowed to register for the next semester. That right there would deter many from reporting a rape. I do hope that changes are made. Rapes need to be reported without fear that they'll suffer even more for reporting it. Edited April 30, 2016 by JulieM 1
Storm Rider Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 10 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Many of the girls interviewed said they felt the reputation of the school stood head and shoulders over rape victims. What does that mean? Just to be clear I am not an advocate that BYU is perfect or that they have perfect administrators or that individuals and processes can not do better or be improved. However, I do advocate for a honest review rather than an emotional, the sky has fallen, type of review. Does it make sense to you that there is a lot of focus on the Honor Code - that it is THE problem and THE reason that young women are not reporting rapes when the reality is that 60% of rapes are not reported in the nation. Obviously, that accusation is false if not dead wrong. The reasons rapes are not reported is far more complex than the simple reason that the Honor Code committee is scary. I asked the question about the punishment for Honor Code violations and how often people are punished and in what ways because I was curious as to why some young women said they feared it. Their fear may be real, but it may not be realistic. When a person has an irrational fear what should be done about it? Should we feed it and condone it or instruct, inform, prove that the fear is not based in reality. 1
Tacenda Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: What does that mean? Just to be clear I am not an advocate that BYU is perfect or that they have perfect administrators or that individuals and processes can not do better or be improved. However, I do advocate for a honest review rather than an emotional, the sky has fallen, type of review. Does it make sense to you that there is a lot of focus on the Honor Code - that it is THE problem and THE reason that young women are not reporting rapes when the reality is that 60% of rapes are not reported in the nation. Obviously, that accusation is false if not dead wrong. The reasons rapes are not reported is far more complex than the simple reason that the Honor Code committee is scary. I asked the question about the punishment for Honor Code violations and how often people are punished and in what ways because I was curious as to why some young women said they feared it. Their fear may be real, but it may not be realistic. When a person has an irrational fear what should be done about it? Should we feed it and condone it or instruct, inform, prove that the fear is not based in reality. Think as if you are a young adult, that mind process or immaturity. They don't want to disappoint their parents, friends, family. Imagine being kicked out of BYU, what it would do to one's reputation? I guess you could be a liar for the rest of your life. I guess the greater would be the harm of keeping the rape hidden, but IMO or in my heart, I wouldn't even want anyone knowing if I was raped. It brings with it shame. It's a conditioning put upon women. IMO, women don't want sex, they want love. At least the majority. And while we're on the subject of sex, sort of. That men or young men also, are told that masturbating is wrong, they then need the girl friend or wife to take care of their needs. Women have to take care of the men, even as married women, they have to take care of this. Imagine how they could just be free, if the men took care of themselves! Edited April 30, 2016 by Tacenda 1
Storm Rider Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 1 minute ago, JulieM said: I'm sure it's not the only reason some rapes aren't reported, but for others it is being reported it is the reason. Just being investigated by the HC office is traumatic and embarrassing, even if they are not found guilty of any violations. Their education is also put on hold and some have not been allowed to register for the next semester. That right there would deter many from reporting a rape. I do hope that changes are made. Rapes need to be reported without fear that they'll suffer even more for reporting it. It would be nice if every rape was reported, but that appears to not be realistic. Obviously, a young woman's comfort about reporting a rape has far more to do with a range of issues rather than just the Honor Code. Just because it is being reported as the reason does not make it so, or make it true. Just because we see it in print or on the internet does not make it real. It is not even real if it is the first thing a person says. When the topic is rape the landscape is far more complex than what is first said. I think an immunity for any action that occurred immediately prior to a rape is easy to implement. I also think that treating all students equally and fairly should be a goal. Repeated offenses should be treated with progressively more severe punishments. Some Honor Code violations should have harsher punishments than others.
Storm Rider Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 1 minute ago, Tacenda said: Think as if you are a young adult mind, that process. They don't want to disappoint their parents, friends, family. Imagine being kicked out of BYU, what it would do to one's reputation? I guess you could be a liar for the rest of your life. I guess the greater would be the harm of keeping the rape hidden, but IMO or in my heart, I wouldn't even want anyone knowing if I was raped. It brings with it shame. It's a conditioning put upon women. IMO, women don't want sex, they want love. At least the majority. And while we're on the subject of sex, sort of. That men or young men also, are told that masturbating is wrong, they then need the girl friend or wife to take care of their needs. Women half to take care of the men, even as married women, they have to take care of this. Imagine how they could just be free, if the men took care of themselves! You bring a lot of information to the table. First, you provide the far more common reasons why young women do not report rape. The Honor Code is not the problem in society or at BYU why rapes are not reported. It is an easy scapegoat, but I look with a jaundiced eye on this topic because rape is simply not reported often in society at large. This is not the place to go into any depth on the topic of sex; that is discussed in other avenues, but not here. It is a complex topic also.
Tacenda Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 1 minute ago, Storm Rider said: You bring a lot of information to the table. First, you provide the far more common reasons why young women do not report rape. The Honor Code is not the problem in society or at BYU why rapes are not reported. It is an easy scapegoat, but I look with a jaundiced eye on this topic because rape is simply not reported often in society at large. This is not the place to go into any depth on the topic of sex; that is discussed in other avenues, but not here. It is a complex topic also. Well, it very well ties in. 1
Storm Rider Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: Well, it very well ties in. You misunderstand me. The topic of rape, to my understanding of those who have written about it, has more to do with power than sex. The only reason I did not try to engage in a conversation about sex on this Board is that it is against the rules to address the topic in any depth - or at least it is very difficult while trying to observe the rules. I am more than comfortable discussing sexual behaviors in marriage and the complexities of interpersonal relationships and expectations.
JAHS Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 Don't know if someone already mentioned this but here's an article today in the Deseret news about granting amnesty: "The dating culture at LDS-oriented Southern Virginia University has undergone a major change recently, and it may have implications for Brigham Young University and the controversy over its policies for students who report sexual assaults. Now, after her mission to Armenia and as her senior year comes to an end, she said SVU is a safer place for women because its honor code now has been supplemented by federal Title IX guidelines, including an amnesty clause. Amnesty clauses, which encourage students to report sexual misconduct by pledging that a school will not punish victims or witnesses who step forward for their own alcohol or drug use or other conduct violations, are sweeping the country. New York passed a law last year that requires every college and university in the state to offer amnesty. Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker signed an amnesty bill into law last month. The question at BYU, which is owned and operated by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is whether an amnesty provision would work at a deeply religious school with an honor code that is as much of its identity as Y Mountain, mint chocolate brownies and great quarterbacks. "That's something that's on the table for us," said BYU spokeswoman Carri Jenkins, who acknowledged that she has spoken to Southern Virginia representatives. "We've begun looking at these other schools with amnesty clauses and what they do." Here's the entire article: Would BYU honor code be better with an amnesty clause like Southern Virginia's? Would such an amnesty clause work at BYU or would it cause students to be more lax regarding the honor code knowing that they could obtain amnesty?
Bernard Gui Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 4 hours ago, JulieM said: Some have not been allowed to register for classes their next semester and their education was put on hold. Have you followed any of the stories here? I posted the Honor Code process here....
VideoGameJunkie Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 Theres a story that was on CNN today and on the Internet homepage that may still be up about a girl who was kicked out of school for reporting a rape because drugs were involved. This honor code and victim shaming is all over news sites and shows. Very bad PR.
VideoGameJunkie Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 Here's the story on the front page of CNN's website. http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/29/health/brigham-young-university-rape/index.html
Russell C McGregor Posted May 1, 2016 Posted May 1, 2016 5 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Theres a story that was on CNN today and on the Internet homepage that may still be up about a girl who was kicked out of school for reporting a rape because drugs were involved. This honor code and victim shaming is all over news sites and shows. Very bad PR. Sigh. Yes, they pass around the same story among themselves; and each time they do, you react as if it's a new and independent witness of BYU's depravity. The reality is that story sharing is just something news organisations do. And they do it all the time. So not only is there a moral panic about rape, and a related moral panic about college rape, there's now a growing moral panic about the BYU Honor Code. Incidentally, I find "Brooke's" story problematic. For several reasons.
Tacenda Posted May 1, 2016 Posted May 1, 2016 12 hours ago, Storm Rider said: I know it is a surprise for you, but yes I have as well as those wonderful stories in the media. I know that young women have said and a great many others have reported there is this huge fear that is keeping young women from facing Honor Code violations. My question revolves around where this fear comes from and is it realistic to be fearful. Not facing the HC committee and then being punished for it is a different issue. Do you see the distinction? Do you by chance read what I wrote? IF the penalty is not severe AFTER the Honor Code violation has been reviewed, what is the problem with reporting immediately? It could be that reporting a rape is about more than the Honor Code - do you see the distinction? Blaming the HC for not reporting a rape is incorrect. The reality is that 60% of rapes in the nation are not reported. It should come as no surprise that there is not an Honor Code in the world at large - so the reasons rape is not reported is not solely because BYU has an Honor Code. Do you agree or does this make sense to you? bold mine... http://fox13now.com/2016/04/30/fearless-5k-raises-awareness-regarding-sexual-assaults-in-utah/ In this article, they mention how it's even higher, since a lot of sexual assaults go unreported in Utah, this is downright scary. 1
Russell C McGregor Posted May 1, 2016 Posted May 1, 2016 24 minutes ago, Tacenda said: bold mine... http://fox13now.com/2016/04/30/fearless-5k-raises-awareness-regarding-sexual-assaults-in-utah/ In this article, they mention how it's even higher, since a lot of sexual assaults go unreported in Utah, this is downright scary. Yes, of course it is. It's supposed to be scary. That's how moral panics work, you see. They are designed to be scary so that people will demand immediate action without taking the time to think the matter through, or engage their critical faculties. For example, a moment's critical thinking reveals that it is impossible for anyone to know how many unreported rapes there are. (This is true for any other crime as well, BTW.) It's absolutely impossible. The closest anyone can come is to perform some kind of anonymous survey and then guess what the results from that sample might mean for the whole population. Beyond that, the only rapes proven to have happened are those that have been reported, investigated and upheld in court. Another moment's critical thinking reveals that, even if the numbers for Utah are valid, it is impossible to extrapolate a single data point (BYU) from that statewide picture. Any self-selected community of people, where the selection is at least in part based upon a shared commitment to certain behavioral standards, is not going to reflect the behaviour of society at large. That is almost a given. Thus, BYU could well be an outlier in either direction -- but most likely on the low side.
Storm Rider Posted May 1, 2016 Posted May 1, 2016 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: bold mine... http://fox13now.com/2016/04/30/fearless-5k-raises-awareness-regarding-sexual-assaults-in-utah/ In this article, they mention how it's even higher, since a lot of sexual assaults go unreported in Utah, this is downright scary. The point is that the allegation that THE reason BYU students don't report rape is out of fear of being punished for Honor Code violations. That seems to be patently false. The individuals involved may be using that excuse, but obviously the reasons are something else i.e. they are they same reasons other individuals do not report in Utah. All of this hand-wringing about the BYU Honor Code preventing individuals from reporting is at best misinformed and at worst an attack to meet an agenda. Again, why would people attack BYU? Let me count the reasons.
ALarson Posted May 1, 2016 Posted May 1, 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, Storm Rider said: The point is that the allegation that THE reason BYU students don't report rape is out of fear of being punished for Honor Code violations. That seems to be patently false. I'd imagine that it's one of the reasons (has it been stated that it's the only reason rapes are not being reported? If so, I missed it). It should at least be part of the discussion, IMO. . Edited May 1, 2016 by ALarson 1
Storm Rider Posted May 1, 2016 Posted May 1, 2016 3 hours ago, ALarson said: I'd imagine that it's one of the reasons (has it been stated that it's the only reason rapes are not being reported? If so, I missed it). It should at least be part of the discussion, IMO. . It appears as if the ONLY thing on the table is the BYU Honor Code. I must have missed the conversations about the full range of reasons why BYU students are not reporting rape. If you know about it I would like to read it. When the topic focusing solely on the Honor Code it is a logical to assume that is THE reasons students are not reporting. Obviously, that is not true or accurate. However, the media and the young women in the news are running away on the emotional horse of victimhood and the Honor Code is the culprit. It is becoming a bit of a farce and I suspect that if the Honor Code is changed there will not be any difference in who does and who does not report a rape.
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