BYU Honor Code Review

[rodheadlee]

On 4/20/2016 at 1:56 AM, Tacenda said:

My brother was put in prison years ago by his ex fiancee who told the police my brother kidnapped and raped her, I'll never forget the surreal feeling of seeing my brother's face on the channel 13 afternoon news.  

It was a horrible time in my family's life, my mom was in the middle stages of Alzheimer's too but that was a mixed blessing, if she'd been fully aware it would have killed her.  It turns out after my brother served for several years this ex fiancee went to my dad and admitted she made up the story, of course they were drinking so who knows what happened.  She came to my dad and told him she was sorry and that she didn't tell the whole truth but wanted to provide my brother a truck and a place to live etc.  So they live together and afterwards break up over and over again.  But prison life changed my brother.  He's been in and out of jail over the years due to intoxication and this girl always calling the police on him.  

Recently I got a letter from my brother from jail.  He's going to see about pressing charges against her for putting him in prison with a false accusation the first time. We only learned later that she had lied.  It caused a rift in my siblings relationships.  A couple of my sister's still won't talk to him for having put my parents through so much.  I know he isn't totally blameless, or maybe he is as far as her lying.  But does have an alcohol problem, and could have curbed so much in his life without it. 

Sorry this post is so long, but do see the side of looking at both people and making sure someone isn't falsely accused.

Yep, Sex crimes are the only crimes where the perp is guilty until proven innocent and since you can't prove a negative our prisons have many innocent people languishing inside with ruined lives. I'm sorry for your brother. I have a family member going though the same thing, minus the alcohol problem. Judgement Day will be a happy day in my family.

[Storm Rider]

On 4/20/2016 at 4:56 AM, Tacenda said:

My brother was put in prison years ago by his ex fiancee who told the police my brother kidnapped and raped her, I'll never forget the surreal feeling of seeing my brother's face on the channel 13 afternoon news.  

It was a horrible time in my family's life, my mom was in the middle stages of Alzheimer's too but that was a mixed blessing, if she'd been fully aware it would have killed her.  It turns out after my brother served for several years this ex fiancee went to my dad and admitted she made up the story, of course they were drinking so who knows what happened.  She came to my dad and told him she was sorry and that she didn't tell the whole truth but wanted to provide my brother a truck and a place to live etc.  So they live together and afterwards break up over and over again.  But prison life changed my brother.  He's been in and out of jail over the years due to intoxication and this girl always calling the police on him.  

Recently I got a letter from my brother from jail.  He's going to see about pressing charges against her for putting him in prison with a false accusation the first time. We only learned later that she had lied.  It caused a rift in my siblings relationships.  A couple of my sister's still won't talk to him for having put my parents through so much.  I know he isn't totally blameless, or maybe he is as far as her lying.  But does have an alcohol problem, and could have curbed so much in his life without it. 

Sorry this post is so long, but do see the side of looking at both people and making sure someone isn't falsely accused.

I missed this post earlier.  I cannot believe the pain your brother has gone through because of a false accusation.  To lose your freedom, your life, due to the lying actions of another is the very depths of injustice.  While in prison you cannot get over it; it just keeps running through your mind.  You know you are innocent and yet you are in prison.  You are certain people will wake up and realize that you have been telling the truth; that others will find out that the person is lying; and that you will immediately regain your freedom.  Yet, that day is never "today" and you languish in prison.  I don't think people can truly understand this feeling without having lived it.  

I have no mercy or pity for the kind of person who lies in this manner.  So much is taken away from the individual imprisoned and it can never be recovered.  You cannot compensate that person enough.  

I understand your brother's choice of self-medication.  He carries a demon within him that haunts him.  One can find solace through Christ, but some of us humans just cannot look up to see.  I wish there was a way for your brother to overcome his demons.  A court case against "her" will not make it right.  He must learn to forgive; he may never forget, but he can let it go.  Leaving it behind is a big step.  

Can you imagine how crushed he was by this woman that accused him of such an heinous act?  How many men are similarly accused?  All it takes is a simple accusation and that man wears a scarlet letter seared into his forehead and heart for the rest of his life.  

Of course, the flip side is to consider the number of women that have actually been raped and have never found justice.  This is an atrocious crime that destroys lives.  

[Tacenda]

54 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Yep, Sex crimes are the only crimes where the perp is guilty until proven innocent and since you can't prove a negative our prisons have many innocent people languishing inside with ruined lives. I'm sorry for your brother. I have a family member going though the same thing, minus the alcohol problem. Judgement Day will be a happy day in my family.

I should have added that her reason for calling the cops was because she had heard that he was speaking to an old girlfriend and was mad at him.  I guess she got in so deep she had to just let everything keep rolling.  It was only when he got out of prison that she came clean.  Now my brother is thinking of pressing charges, I don't know the statute of limitations on this, but I feel bad in a way if she would have to serve time for it.  Mixed emotions really.  She is a grandmother too. My brother loved her despite what she did though.  But they could never make it work, now he's finally coming to terms with that. Thanks for the support, and sorry about your family situation, I feel your pain.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

28 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I missed this post earlier.  I cannot believe the pain your brother has gone through because of a false accusation.  To lose your freedom, your life, due to the lying actions of another is the very depths of injustice.  While in prison you cannot get over it; it just keeps running through your mind.  You know you are innocent and yet you are in prison.  You are certain people will wake up and realize that you have been telling the truth; that others will find out that the person is lying; and that you will immediately regain your freedom.  Yet, that day is never "today" and you languish in prison.  I don't think people can truly understand this feeling without having lived it.  

I have no mercy or pity for the kind of person who lies in this manner.  So much is taken away from the individual imprisoned and it can never be recovered.  You cannot compensate that person enough.  

I understand your brother's choice of self-medication.  He carries a demon within him that haunts him.  One can find solace through Christ, but some of us humans just cannot look up to see.  I wish there was a way for your brother to overcome his demons.  A court case against "her" will not make it right.  He must learn to forgive; he may never forget, but he can let it go.  Leaving it behind is a big step.  

Can you imagine how crushed he was by this woman that accused him of such an heinous act?  How many men are similarly accused?  All it takes is a simple accusation and that man wears a scarlet letter seared into his forehead and heart for the rest of his life.  

Of course, the flip side is to consider the number of women that have actually been raped and have never found justice.  This is an atrocious crime that destroys lives.  

He did some awful things in prison too, afraid of anyone touching him, if you know what I mean.  So he worked out and became huge and shaved his head to look like a skin head and may have hurt some people in self defense.  So feels a lot of guilt.  Thanks for the support.  

[Jeanne]

I am so sorry for this Tacenda.  The ripple affects of mistakes and misunderstandings have surely hurt your family.  I hope there will be this shining light someday soon when things will all come together for you and yours.  Bless you for always having this unconditional love and open heart.

 

 

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I am so sorry for this Tacenda.  The ripple affects of mistakes and misunderstandings have surely hurt your family.  I hope there will be this shining light someday soon when things will all come together for you and yours.  Bless you for always having this unconditional love and open heart.

 

 

Thank you Jeanne, ya know I rarely ever speak of my brother to others, or what my family has gone through, I consider several on here my friends.  You especially!

[Robert F. Smith]

https://gma.yahoo.com/video/kansas-state-university-students-sue-114738007.html  (another Title IX issue).

[hope_for_things]

On 4/23/2016 at 5:17 AM, Russell C McGregor said:

Yes, I know all about that. I'm asking for some documentation in support of your rather nasty accusation that the Church displays and/or encourages "disdain towards people with tattoos and piercings." Advising against getting such things is not evidence of "disdain towards" those who do.

I just showed you where the FTSY pamphlet calls tattoos a "disfiguring".  Also with the prophet talking about it as well.  You don't like my use of the term disdain, but how is that inaccurate considering that pamphlets and prophets are telling people not to engage in disfiguring their bodies in this way.  Sounds like disdain to me.  

That much is apparent.

All those "outer" things that you imagine the Church is obsessing over (in the which I suspect you may be projecting) are only relevant because they are indicative of an inner commitment. If they ceased to indicate such, the Church would cease to encourage them.

In the 1950's, Mormon men usually wore white shirts and ties to Church, without any encouragement from their leaders. Can you guess why that might be the case?

Have you read any sociological and or historical studies of 20th century Mormonism?  I would recommend The Angel and the Beehive by Armand Mauss.  Also Gregory Prince's David O' McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism is a good look at this same time period.  Mauss' thesis talks about phases of assimilation and retrenchment, where the church culture at times embraces elements of the surrounding society and at other times pushes back against it.  The 50s represented a time of assimilation, and the counter culture movement of the 60s and 70s the church pushed back against it similar to other conservative Christian groups who found these counter culture movements out of alignment with their sensibilities.  

Also, I wasn't alive in the 50s so I can't comment on the accuracy of your claim that church leaders encouraged white shirts, or whether or not anyone pushed back against that encouragement.  I would guess that your characterization is too simple of a representation.  

 

[hope_for_things]

On 4/23/2016 at 4:01 PM, Bernard Gui said:

Interesting. The garment is hardly an appendage to the gospel. Could you explain how observing the sacredness of the garment by dressing in a manner that keeps it from public view is Pharisaical? I am curious how

wearing a white shirt for 15 minutes to officiate at the sacrament table is something Jesus warned about. Please explain why advising against tattoos or body piercing is offensive to Jesus. 

According to the quote by Joseph Smith, the temple itself would be considered an appendage.  

Quote

The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.

I would agree that my lived experience of Mormonism, the overall emphasis today on Temples has grown since the founding of the church, and that most practicing members I know wouldn't consider the Temple as an appendage, even though that's what I believe it is.  . Personally, I believe that this takes away from the messages of Jesus and the core elements of the gospel.  In my faith journey I have struggled with the emphasis put on temple work, both the financial and time resources dedicated to temples seems like a large misappropriation of time and money.  I think there are better things to do with that time and money.  

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

According to the quote by Joseph Smith, the temple itself would be considered an appendage.  

I would agree that my lived experience of Mormonism, the overall emphasis today on Temples has grown since the founding of the church, and that most practicing members I know wouldn't consider the Temple as an appendage, even though that's what I believe it is.  . Personally, I believe that this takes away from the messages of Jesus and the core elements of the gospel.  In my faith journey I have struggled with the emphasis put on temple work, both the financial and time resources dedicated to temples seems like a large misappropriation of time and money.  I think there are better things to do with that time and money.  

If I understand you correctly, this is a myopic view of temple work. Scripture and words of modern prophets do not bear it up.

Quote

I have to felt to rejoice exceedingly in this work of redeeming the dead. I do not wonder at President Young saying he felt moved upon to call upon the Latter-day Saints to hurry up the building of these Temples. He felt the importance of the work; but now he has gone, it rests with us to continue it, and God will bless our labors and we will have joy therein. This is a preparation necessary for the second advent of the Savior; and when we shall have built the Temples now contemplated, we will then begin to see the necessity of building others, for in proportion to the diligence of our labors in this direction, will we comprehend the extent of the work to be done, and the present is only a beginning. When the Savior comes, a thousand years will be devoted to this work of redemption; and Temples will appear all over this land of Joseph. North and South America and also in Europe and elsewhere; and all the descendants of Shem, Ham, and Japheth who received not the Gospel in the flesh, must be officiated for in the temples of God, before the Savior can present the kingdom to the Father, saying, "It is finished." Wilford Woodruff

Just one of hundreds of such quotes.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Gray]

19 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

According to the quote by Joseph Smith, the temple itself would be considered an appendage.  

I would agree that my lived experience of Mormonism, the overall emphasis today on Temples has grown since the founding of the church, and that most practicing members I know wouldn't consider the Temple as an appendage, even though that's what I believe it is.  . Personally, I believe that this takes away from the messages of Jesus and the core elements of the gospel.  In my faith journey I have struggled with the emphasis put on temple work, both the financial and time resources dedicated to temples seems like a large misappropriation of time and money.  I think there are better things to do with that time and money.  

I believe there is spiritual value in the ritual, but I agree that it should not take precedence over care for the living. 

[hope_for_things]

35 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

If I understand you correctly, this is a myopic view of temple work. Scripture and words of modern prophets do not bear it up.

I guess we disagree, I think exactly opposite, that a hyper emphasis on temple work is myopic and not supported by scriptures.  You can make an argument that our current church leaders are in alignment with what you're saying, prioritizing temple work so highly, but I don't think its supported in scripture.  

Just throw out all the scriptural arguments and the arguments from authority for a second and honestly evaluate which you think does more value to this world and to people that you know and love.  Temple work, or charitable work?  I can see how charity helps others, with real tangible results here and now.  I have to only guess and hope that temple work has some kind of efficacious effect in the afterlife.  In my book, thats a slam dunk against temple work, as far as priorities and resource allocation goes.  Something I can see actually helps people here on earth, vs. something that I have no tangible evidence does anything at all.  

[Bernard Gui]

Ahhhhh. Of course... The old "honest evaluation" ploy.

I have assumed you are a member of the Church. Please accept my apology for the misunderstanding.

As a member, I have found it quite easy to mix temple work with charitable work. They are not mutually exclusive as you assert. In fact, the temple is where I learn about true charity and commit my life to it. This has also been the experience of many people that I know and love.

 

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Ahhhhh. Of course... The old "honest evaluation" ploy.

I have assumed you are a member of the Church. Please accept my apology for the misunderstanding.

As a member, I have found it quite easy to mix temple work with charitable work. They are not mutually exclusive as you assert. In fact, the temple is where I learn about true charity and commit my life to it. This has also been the experience of many people that I know and love

Ahhh, the old, I can judge you differently now that I think you're not a member of the church ploy.  

Actually I'm a lifelong, RM, TR holding member.  Just learning and growing, hopefully like everyone else is in this life.

And it's not mutually exclusive, thats not my argument.  I'm asking for a prioritization of resources and an emphasis on the core of the gospel message.  I think temple work qualifies as an appendage and not the core, and shouldn't be prioritized so high on the list.  What about instead of stake and ward temple night, stake and ward refugee night where we put together relief supplies for them, or other service activities.  Let the dead bury their dead, let's spend more time helping the living.  

Edited April 25, 2016 by hope_for_things

[Russell C McGregor]

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I just showed you where the FTSY pamphlet calls tattoos a "disfiguring".  Also with the prophet talking about it as well.  You don't like my use of the term disdain, but how is that inaccurate considering that pamphlets and prophets are telling people not to engage in disfiguring their bodies in this way.  Sounds like disdain to me

Disdain - noun
1.
the feeling that someone or something is unworthy of one's consideration or respect.

Disfigure - verb
spoil the appearance of.

I'm afraid I don't see a connection.

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Also, I wasn't alive in the 50s so I can't comment on the accuracy of your claim that church leaders encouraged white shirts, or whether or not anyone pushed back against that encouragement.  I would guess that your characterization is too simple of a representation.  

You weren't reading very carefully. I said:

"In the 1950's, Mormon men usually wore white shirts and ties to Church, without any encouragement from their leaders."

Did you catch that little "without" that time?

Here's the thing: in the 1950's most men wore white shirts and ties on just about any important occasion. (And hats. They always wore hats.) The leaders didn't have to encourage the wearing of white shirts and ties because everyone just wore them.

But it's different now. It's no longer just routine.

Which is why it actually signifies something.

 

[hope_for_things]

36 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

Disdain - noun
1.
the feeling that someone or something is unworthy of one's consideration or respect.

Disfigure - verb
spoil the appearance of.

I'm afraid I don't see a connection.

You weren't reading very carefully. I said:

"In the 1950's, Mormon men usually wore white shirts and ties to Church, without any encouragement from their leaders."

Did you catch that little "without" that time?

Here's the thing: in the 1950's most men wore white shirts and ties on just about any important occasion. (And hats. They always wore hats.) The leaders didn't have to encourage the wearing of white shirts and ties because everyone just wore them.

But it's different now. It's no longer just routine.

Which is why it actually signifies something.

 

Its just culture, the 50s that was the predominant culture and the church wanted to be considered part of it, the assimilation faze that Mauss talks about in his book.  Thats why.  And, I did miss your "without" qualifier the first time, but you don't have to be condescending about it.

Nothing divine about white shirts and ties, its just the business man kind of dress that corporate america embraced, and the church leaders decided to emulate.  

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

Ahhh, the old, I can judge you differently now that I think you're not a member of the church ploy.  

Actually I'm a lifelong, RM, TR holding member.  Just learning and growing, hopefully like everyone else is in this life.

And it's not mutually exclusive, thats not my argument.  I'm asking for a prioritization of resources and an emphasis on the core of the gospel message.  I think temple work qualifies as an appendage and not the core, and shouldn't be prioritized so high on the list.  What about instead of stake and ward temple night, stake and ward refugee night where we put together relief supplies for them, or other service activities.  Let the dead bury their dead, let's spend more time helping the living.  

I for one find such an airy dismissal of the significance of the work of salvation for the dead to be wholly unacceptable and out of harmony with the restored gospel of Christ.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

Ahhh, the old, I can judge you differently now that I think you're not a member of the church ploy.  

Actually I'm a lifelong, RM, TR holding member.  Just learning and growing, hopefully like everyone else is in this life.

And it's not mutually exclusive, thats not my argument.  I'm asking for a prioritization of resources and an emphasis on the core of the gospel message.  I think temple work qualifies as an appendage and not the core, and shouldn't be prioritized so high on the list.  What about instead of stake and ward temple night, stake and ward refugee night where we put together relief supplies for them, or other service activities.  Let the dead bury their dead, let's spend more time helping the living.  

I for one find such an airy dismissal of the significance of the work of salvation for the dead to be wholly unacceptable and out of harmony with the restored gospel of Christ.

 

[Russell C McGregor]

Just now, hope_for_things said:

Its just culture, the 50s that was the predominant culture and the church wanted to be considered part of it, the assimilation faze that Mauss talks about in his book.  Thats why.  And, I did miss your "without" qualifier the first time, but you don't have to be condescending about it.

Nothing divine about white shirts and ties, its just the business man kind of dress that corporate america embraced, and the church leaders decided to emulate.  

Speaking of being condescending....

White shirts and ties aren't "corporate america[sic]." They're part of formal male attire. They're what we wear to an occasion that we regard as important.

Back in the day, farmers, labourers and grease monkeys knew how to put on a white shirt and tie for important occasions.

I would put on a white shirt and tie to meet the Queen or the Prime Minister, and I'm not exactly part of corporate America.

Why should I go out of my way to be scruffy when I'm going into the presence of God?

 

[Jeanne]

12 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

Speaking of being condescending....

White shirts and ties aren't "corporate america[sic]." They're part of formal male attire. They're what we wear to an occasion that we regard as important.

Back in the day, farmers, labourers and grease monkeys knew how to put on a white shirt and tie for important occasions.

I would put on a white shirt and tie to meet the Queen or the Prime Minister, and I'm not exactly part of corporate America.

Why should I go out of my way to be scruffy when I'm going into the presence of God?

 

My Dad and grandfather were like this.  Didn't go anywhere without the white shirt and tie.  Unfortunately for me and my sister, it meant wearing a dress to...LAGOON!

[Robert F. Smith]

11 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I just showed you where the FTSY pamphlet calls tattoos a "disfiguring".  Also with the prophet talking about it as well.  You don't like my use of the term disdain, but how is that inaccurate considering that pamphlets and prophets are telling people not to engage in disfiguring their bodies in this way.  Sounds like disdain to me.  

.....................................

Have you read any sociological and or historical studies of 20th century Mormonism?  I would recommend The Angel and the Beehive by Armand Mauss.  Also Gregory Prince's David O' McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism is a good look at this same time period.  Mauss' thesis talks about phases of assimilation and retrenchment, where the church culture at times embraces elements of the surrounding society and at other times pushes back against it.  The 50s represented a time of assimilation, and the counter culture movement of the 60s and 70s the church pushed back against it similar to other conservative Christian groups who found these counter culture movements out of alignment with their sensibilities.  

Also, I wasn't alive in the 50s so I can't comment on the accuracy of your claim that church leaders encouraged white shirts, or whether or not anyone pushed back against that encouragement.  I would guess that your characterization is too simple of a representation.  

Good points.

The problem is that we have some very good and faithful Polynesian and African brethren who have tattoos and other body markings which are ritual signs of manhood and tribal association which ought not to be disdained.  In addition, what are we to make of good African women who were subjected to genital mutilation as standard practice within their tribes?  We ought not to insult and disrespect such people.  In the course of time, such practices will eventually go by the boards.  In the meantime, we need to be understanding and respectful -- the way anthropologists are.  Just look how long it took for the Word of Wisdom to take full effect within the LDS community (almost a century).

[deli_llama]

An observation, and my perspective.

It isn't just Africans and Polynesians; and it isn't just cultural/ritual tattooing, or in some cases, other ritual body markings. It also isn't just men. There are cultures and places, excluding the genital mutilation example already mentioned, where woman might also be tattooed or otherwise marked. There are also sub-cultures in the west, including the US, in which non-religious, ritualistic, initiatory, and/or associative tattooing, or body marking, occurs.  I would hope we would not show disdain to any persons from these groups that choose join us as well.  

Personal thought concerning disdain. I have many tattoos, including one from a Polynesian mission companion, half inch holes in my ears, and so on.  Not once has a leader said a hurtful or disdainful thing about it, and it hasn't yet kept me out of the temple. I haven't ever felt disdain from the organization otherwise called the church. 

On the other hand, I have felt disdain from my brothers and sisters within the membership. Including one punk from BYU-I that cornered me in the temple bathroom and loudly dressed me down about being disrespectful, desecrating the holy place, and driving away the sacred Spirit. He wasn't even a temple worker.  I guess he didn't yet realize that Temple Presidents don't have AP's. 

Ah, and there was the other time, also in Rexburg oddly, when a very young and cocksure brother tried to make me produce my recommend so he could inspect it. I wonder how he thought I got past the recommend desk?  He couldn't believe my Bishop and Stake President would have really given me a recommend. Beard, longish hair, tarts, holes, I wasn't worthy according to him. He wasn't satisfied when I reminded him I wasn't a student locally, and could grow a beard if I chose to.  He went and got a worker, which ended in his embarrassment. Now that is disdain, or maybe just misdirected zeal. Honestly, for the most part I haven't felt all that much disdain.

I wouldn't call it disdain when someone, from a position of authority, counsels an audience to be thoughtful of their bodies, and includes with that counsel some of his/her personal biases. That is how counsel is often given—with a good side helping of the giver's perspective and biases.  It wasn't disdain when the 80-something year old brother pulled me aside in the IF temple and let me know they have ways of removing tattoos now, but that didn't matter because he was so glad I joined the church, and how long ago was I baptized? That was an old man offering old man advice in an old man way.  It is what they do.  Someday I will do the same; probably already do. 

Now, I would call it disdain if they actually started making a no-body-markings-or-tattoos policy concerning the Temple. But they haven't, and I can't foresee them doing so. 

I am curious, @hope_for_things , do you have markings, tatts, or piercings, and have you felt disdain stemming from others because of them? It might be we are just having different experiences, and my history is the aberration. 

Edited April 26, 2016 by deli_llama
I should learn to proofread on mobile devices before I post.

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, hope_for_things said:Ahhh, the old, I can judge you differently now that I think you're not a member of the church ploy.  

Actually I'm a lifelong, RM, TR holding member.  Just learning and growing, hopefully like everyone else is in this life.

And it's not mutually exclusive, thats not my argument.  I'm asking for a prioritization of resources and an emphasis on the core of the gospel message.  I think temple work qualifies as an appendage and not the core, and shouldn't be prioritized so high on the list.  What about instead of stake and ward temple night, stake and ward refugee night where we put together relief supplies for them, or other service activities.  Let the dead bury their dead, let's spend more time helping the living.  

 I judged you?  It was you who brought up the question of my honesty. And now you question my spiritual growth and charity? Your last paragraph is full of judgment of our fellow members and leaders.

I had assumed you were LDS, but your animus toward the temple and work for the dead led me to think otherwise. I am surprised that you affirm your membership and say you hold a temple recommend. Your antipathy contradicts D&C 138 and the expressed Four-fold Mission of the Church.

Disparaging work for the dead is not something one often hears from members of the Church. One could conclude from your words that you believe the Church and its leaders are out of the way because of the emphasis on the temple. How do you arrive at that conclusion? The priority of temple work is mandated by scripture and upheld by the words and actions of every prophet and apostle from Joseph to Pres Monson. But none of them suggests doing it at the expense of other service. When did they go astray?

Every ward and stake where I have lived has provided a good balance of activities that support the full gospel message. We have both temple nights and charitable service....and Cub Scout pack meetings.  Moreover, you are free to give any kind and amount of charitable service you wish. Skip temple night and instead volunteer at a homeless shelter. Why not start one yourself?

 I truly do not understand why, despite your denial, you assert they are mutually exclusive, and double down by dismissing the temple with "let the dead bury their dead." The purpose of the temple is to do for others what they cannot do for themselves.... to receive the sacred ordinances of salvation. That is at the very heart of the gospel, not an appendage to it. Jesus himself commands it.

[Russell C McGregor]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

 I judged you?  It was you who brought up the question of my honesty. And now you question my spiritual growth and charity? Your last paragraph is full of judgment of our fellow members and leaders.

I had assumed you were LDS, but your animus toward the temple and work for the dead led me to think otherwise. I am surprised that you affirm your membership and say you hold a temple recommend. Your antipathy contradicts D&C 138 and the expressed Four-fold Mission of the Church.

Disparaging work for the dead is not something one often hears from members of the Church. One could conclude from your words that you believe the Church and its leaders are out of the way because of the emphasis on the temple. How do you arrive at that conclusion? The priority of temple work is mandated by scripture and upheld by the words and actions of every prophet and apostle from Joseph to Pres Monson. But none of them suggests doing it at the expense of other service. When did they go astray?

Every ward and stake where I have lived has provided a good balance of activities that support the full gospel message. We have both temple nights and charitable service....and Cub Scout pack meetings.  Moreover, you are free to give any kind and amount of charitable service you wish. Skip temple night and instead volunteer at a homeless shelter. Why not start one yourself?

 I truly do not understand why, despite your denial, you assert they are mutually exclusive, and double down by dismissing the temple with "let the dead bury their dead." The purpose of the temple is to do for others what they cannot do for themselves.... to receive the sacred ordinances of salvation. That is at the very heart of the gospel, not an appendage to it. Jesus himself commands it.

Back in the 1960's people had an image of Jesus as a kind of 1st century hippie, complete with beard, sandals and rebellion against the "establishment."

Nowadays people seem to see Him as some kind of early social worker, who went about validating people and making them feel good about themselves, but would never say anything to make anyone feel uncomfortable. (Except actual religious believers, of course.)

The Jesus who told everyone -- including bona fide victims -- to repent and sin no more, who founded a church, ordained apostles, gave commandments, enjoined obedience, taught that very few people deserve heaven, recommended the millstone treatment for those who caused young people to stumble in the faith, and said that a religious ceremony was a better use of money than feeding the poor, just doesn't penetrate their consciousness.

 

 

[Russell C McGregor]

12 hours ago, Jeanne said:

My Dad and grandfather were like this.  Didn't go anywhere without the white shirt and tie.  Unfortunately for me and my sister, it meant wearing a dress to...LAGOON!

Yes, my grandfather was just the same. He slopped around the farm in ancient tweed trousers, flannel shirt, gumboots and a battered old hat. Then when he drove into town, he put on a suit.

In fact, I think he even had a bath just for the occasion.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Russell C McGregor