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BYU Honor Code Review


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1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

I think its time that the whole honor code be re-evaluted.  Put all the pros and cons on the table for the existing policies and practices.  No assumptions about tradition.  No hard fast conclusions that because something is a church standard, that it must be enforced in a particular way.  Even little bugaboos like facial hair and dress code should be re-evaluated.  I hope the school takes the time to consider all the consequences of the previous honor code policy, and determines what the best direction is to go in the future.  

Is BYU a place where compulsion, spying and outward appearances are values that they want to foster?  I hope they take a pragmatic approach and think about what values they want to promote at the end of the day.  I'm hopeful for change, it certainly is needed. 

I'm with you in that i think it's time for BYU to revamp the honor code.  There's nothing praiseworthy about doing something just because that's the way it's always been done.

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Just now, bluebell said:

I'm with you in that i think it's time for BYU to revamp the honor code.  There's nothing praiseworthy about doing something just because that's the way it's always been done.

What "revampings" or changes to the Honor Code would you like to see? Just curious . . .

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7 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I agree.  And you know, I think you can have an honor code that doesn't require so much judgement for things that are so minor in view of a new age and concepts.  There are some specifics that might be better done away with without hurting the basic perception of the church and BYU.

I worry that leaders will resist making changes because there are many who believe that public pressure to make changes is a negative thing because it undermines the perception that church leaders receive revelation independently from the surrounding events in the culture.  History shows a much different picture of course.  Hopefully humility can prevail....

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Just now, hope_for_things said:

I worry that leaders will resist making changes because there are many who believe that public pressure to make changes is a negative thing because it undermines the perception that church leaders receive revelation independently from the surrounding events in the culture.  History shows a much different picture of course.  Hopefully humility can prevail....

I worry about this too..hopefully, they can take two steps forward without taking 3 steps back.

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1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

I think its time that the whole honor code be re-evaluted . . .  Even little bugaboos like facial hair and dress code should be re-evaluated.

Jeanne:

I think you can have an honor code that doesn't require so much judgement for things that are so minor in view of a new age and concepts.

This is a good discussion. Could people who would like to see some changes give some examples? 

Facial hair / haircut restrictions have been greatly relaxed in the last several years, bowing to the tides of societal change. By dress code changes, are we talking "Daisy Duke" shorts and tank tops? Midrifts showing, etc.?

A ban on skinny jeans is non-negotiable, in my book . . . :lol:

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2 minutes ago, rongo said:

Jeanne:

 

This is a good discussion. Could people who would like to see some changes give some examples? 

Facial hair / haircut restrictions have been greatly relaxed in the last several years, bowing to the tides of societal change. By dress code changes, are we talking "Daisy Duke" shorts and tank tops? Midrifts showing, etc.?

A ban on skinny jeans is non-negotiable, in my book . . . :lol:

I think they can do away with the beard, mustache thing..and if they don't want tank tops, for those who have not been through the Temple, nothing wrong with just short sleeve tops.  Little things would not change the moral concept of the church.  But I hope that with the honor code itself, they take great thought into the sin/sinner of an honor code in comparison to an all out crime. 

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On 4/20/2016 at 9:58 AM, bluebell said:

I'm with you in that i think it's time for BYU to revamp the honor code.  There's nothing praiseworthy about doing something just because that's the way it's always been done.

What sort of re-vamping do you think is in order?

Thanks,

-Smac

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35 minutes ago, rongo said:

What "revampings" or changes to the Honor Code would you like to see? Just curious . . .

I don't have any in mind really, though i think the facial hair one is one that could easily be reviewed.  The reason for it's implementation seems irrelevant now (since beards don't = anti-establishment anymore).

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7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

What sort of re-vamping do you think is in order?

Thanks,

-Smac

Some of it seems irrelevant.  And maybe there are other things that are more relevant now that should take their place.  I don't have a dog in the fight either way, i was just expressing that such a review every few years makes sense.  

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15 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I think they can do away with the beard, mustache thing..and if they don't want tank tops, for those who have not been through the Temple, nothing wrong with just short sleeve tops.  

Are you saying they banned short sleeve tops?

If so, I think you are mistaken.

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19 minutes ago, rongo said:

Jeanne:

 

This is a good discussion. Could people who would like to see some changes give some examples? 

Facial hair / haircut restrictions have been greatly relaxed in the last several years, bowing to the tides of societal change. By dress code changes, are we talking "Daisy Duke" shorts and tank tops? Midrifts showing, etc.?

A ban on skinny jeans is non-negotiable, in my book . . . :lol:

Do other schools have dress codes?  When I attended other universities, I don't recall them having any dress codes, yet I don't remember people showing up naked to class.  Seems like a dress code for adults isn't really needed.  

You could ask people to dress appropriately and be respectful of others in the honor code, and then let them govern themselves.  Exceptions will happen from time to time, I'm sure extreme examples can be addressed without having an explicit guideline around dress and grooming.  

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13 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I guess I can be relatively pessimistic.  I suspect that whatever happens there will be a loud denunciation of the process and the result.  They are evil; they did not listen; they did not go far enough; they went too far; they did not listen to "me"; I am not happy; etc., etc., etc.  

The whole episode leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  I am disenchanted that there are students at BYU that not only don't follow the Honor Code, but aren't even interested in living the standards of the Church.  Why are they there?  Cheap tuition?  Shame on them.

In our HP group meeting this week I was talking with one of the brothers.  His son, a 4.0 student and an athlete, was just notified that he was not accepted at BYU.  There was some sadness and a voiced wish that the Church had more universities throughout the United States.  I know this young man - he is an outstanding fellow and one that I would be completely confident that he would naturally follow the Honor Code and standards of the Church.  When we have youth that don't care about those things, I have little patience allowing them to take the place of other young people like this young man.  

If you have a wild hair - don't go to BYU.  You will pay more, but you will at least have integrity and honesty.  

For those not accepted at BYU, Utah Valley University seems to be a pretty good alternative, and not just because of its proximity to BYU. Students at both schools are blended in the student wards and stakes, UVU offers a good undergraduate education, it is the fastest growing school in the state system, and the Church's largest Institute program is located there. 

Oh, and Elder Holland's son is university president. 

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3 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Do other schools have dress codes?  When I attended other universities, I don't recall them having any dress codes, yet I don't remember people showing up naked to class.  Seems like a dress code for adults isn't really needed.  

You could ask people to dress appropriately and be respectful of others in the honor code, and then let them govern themselves.  Exceptions will happen from time to time, I'm sure extreme examples can be addressed without having an explicit guideline around dress and grooming.  

At other schools, I've seen dress that is highly immodest in terms of Church standards. See "For the Strength of Youth."

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8 minutes ago, Calm said:

Are you saying they banned short sleeve tops?

If so, I think you are mistaken.

"Clothing is inappropriate when it is sleeveless, strapless, backless, or revealing; has slits above the knee; or is form fitting." (Honor Code)

Nothing about short sleeve shirts. I guess it depends on how short the sleeve is before it is considered sleeveless.

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10 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Do other schools have dress codes?  When I attended other universities, I don't recall them having any dress codes, yet I don't remember people showing up naked to class.  Seems like a dress code for adults isn't really needed.  

You could ask people to dress appropriately and be respectful of others in the honor code, and then let them govern themselves.  Exceptions will happen from time to time, I'm sure extreme examples can be addressed without having an explicit guideline around dress and grooming.  

Teaching them good principles and letting them govern themselves? A radical idea! 

 

:P

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I've wondered what would have happened if I had been turned in to the Honor Code office. I lived in an apartment with five roommates. We got along pretty well, and our apartment would drop to four roommates during spring/summer term. When I got engaged, I shared a room with someone with pretty severe cerebral palsy. He idolized two brothers that we shared the apartment with (they were both good guys, so his idolization was not misplaced). :)  

My wife and I dated for two months, and were engaged for two months (we knew that we were both the ones). We met at the Sears call center (for repairs), and I convinced her to move over to the Richards (PE) building for a 2nd job. So, I went to school, worked at Sears, and then worked graveyard as a janitor --- she did the same (UVSC, Sears, graveyard janitor). When summer came, we quit Sears and worked full-time from 11 PM to 7 AM as janitors. So, we literally spent almost every minute we weren't in school together.

One night, I made her dinner, no one was home, and she wanted to take a nap before going to work at 11:00. It being impossible to lie down on what we jokingly called our "chastity couches" (the cushion padding was non-existent, so lying down meant lying across the three major wooden slats that were under the cushions --- very uncomfortable), I told her to go lie down in the vacant middle bedroom on one of the bunk beds while I did the dishes. Some of my roommates came home, and then we went out.

Two weeks before we were married, I came home and found all of my stuff moved into the vacant middle bedroom. When I asked, my roommate started freaking out about not wanting to room with an honor code violator. I summoned the two brothers for an apartment council, and the two started airing their grievances (the older brother didn't agree and didn't have anything to do with moving my things). Basically, they were angry that I was breaking the honor code by being out almost every night with my fiance until morning. When I said, "You do realize that we're at work, right?" they had nothing to say. They brought up that I had allowed a girl back into the living area, and I countered with the younger brother letting a girl from our ward type papers on his computer in his bedroom throughout the whole year (there was nothing wrong with this beyond the technical violation of the rule --- she was just typing papers). Well, that's different. I said, "Not if the strict justice and strict constructionism you're pushing for is to be our standard." He's violated the living quarter rule much, much more than the one time she took a nap in a vacant room while I was in the kitchen. Etc. What bugged me the most was that the two had moved all of my things without talking to me ---- all he had to do was ask, and I would have voluntarily moved into the vacant room. I ended by saying that I would be gone in two weeks, but that I hoped we could spend those two weeks pleasantly rather than with animosity.

I have often wondered what would have happened if an Honor Code complaint had been filed with the Honor Code office. 

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16 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Do other schools have dress codes?  When I attended other universities, I don't recall them having any dress codes, yet I don't remember people showing up naked to class.  

I went to Arizona State University (party school USA) for two semesters as a 30 something adult. 

Wow.

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26 minutes ago, Calm said:

Are you saying they banned short sleeve tops?

If so, I think you are mistaken.

I am mistaken then.  I did not know this was acceptable.  Thank you Calm.  Does this mean that they can wear a relatively nice and modest sundress in the warm spring?  I apologize for not being aware of this.  I thought short sleeves were unacceptable.

Edited by Jeanne
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18 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

At other schools, I've seen dress that is highly immodest in terms of Church standards. See "For the Strength of Youth."

Two things:

1. For the strength of YOUTH is a set of guidelines for the youth, not legal adults.  

2. Its a guideline that is individually interpreted and enforced, no institutional enforcement.    Let people govern themselves.  Handle extremes as exceptions, don't over police.  

 

Edited by hope_for_things
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15 minutes ago, JAHS said:

"Clothing is inappropriate when it is sleeveless, strapless, backless, or revealing; has slits above the knee; or is form fitting." (Honor Code)

Nothing about short sleeve shirts. I guess it depends on how short the sleeve is before it is considered sleeveless.

I have on a short sleeve T shirt now. The sleeves come to my elbows 

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4 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I am mistaken then.  I did not know this was unacceptable.  Thank you Calm.  Does this mean that they can wear a relatively nice and modest sundress in the warm spring?  I apologize for not being aware of this.  I thought short sleeves were unacceptable.

I think you are confusing "short sleeved" with "sleeveless."

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11 minutes ago, rongo said:

I've wondered what would have happened if I had been turned in to the Honor Code office. I lived in an apartment with five roommates. We got along pretty well, and our apartment would drop to four roommates during spring/summer term. When I got engaged, I shared a room with someone with pretty severe cerebral palsy. He idolized two brothers that we shared the apartment with (they were both good guys, so his idolization was not misplaced). :)  

My wife and I dated for two months, and were engaged for two months (we knew that we were both the ones). We met at the Sears call center (for repairs), and I convinced her to move over to the Richards (PE) building for a 2nd job. So, I went to school, worked at Sears, and then worked graveyard as a janitor --- she did the same (UVSC, Sears, graveyard janitor). When summer came, we quit Sears and worked full-time from 11 PM to 7 AM as janitors. So, we literally spent almost every minute we weren't in school together.

One night, I made her dinner, no one was home, and she wanted to take a nap before going to work at 11:00. It being impossible to lie down on what we jokingly called our "chastity couches" (the cushion padding was non-existent, so lying down meant lying across the three major wooden slats that were under the cushions --- very uncomfortable), I told her to go lie down in the vacant middle bedroom on one of the bunk beds while I did the dishes. Some of my roommates came home, and then we went out.

Two weeks before we were married, I came home and found all of my stuff moved into the vacant middle bedroom. When I asked, my roommate started freaking out about not wanting to room with an honor code violator. I summoned the two brothers for an apartment council, and the two started airing their grievances (the older brother didn't agree and didn't have anything to do with moving my things). Basically, they were angry that I was breaking the honor code by being out almost every night with my fiance until morning. When I said, "You do realize that we're at work, right?" they had nothing to say. They brought up that I had allowed a girl back into the living area, and I countered with the younger brother letting a girl from our ward type papers on his computer in his bedroom throughout the whole year (there was nothing wrong with this beyond the technical violation of the rule --- she was just typing papers). Well, that's different. I said, "Not if the strict justice and strict constructionism you're pushing for is to be our standard." He's violated the living quarter rule much, much more than the one time she took a nap in a vacant room while I was in the kitchen. Etc. What bugged me the most was that the two had moved all of my things without talking to me ---- all he had to do was ask, and I would have voluntarily moved into the vacant room. I ended by saying that I would be gone in two weeks, but that I hoped we could spend those two weeks pleasantly rather than with animosity.

I have often wondered what would have happened if an Honor Code complaint had been filed with the Honor Code office. 

This.  It would have changed your whole life...and not for better..innocent or not.  Ouch! 

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