BYU Honor Code Review

[hope_for_things]

30 minutes ago, smac97 said:

What aspects of the Honor Code do you think require change?  And what sort(s) of change(s) do you have in mind?

Thanks,

-Smac

Start with a critical analysis of the purpose of the honor code in the first place.  Evaluate the pros and cons of each element in the current code.  Look at enforcement, and the culture that the honor code creates.  Prioritize what you want out of a well rounded graduate.  Put everything on the table for change, don't consider that any of the current practices sacred cows.  Start over from scratch and see what you can come up with.  At the end of the day, as with government, I always think that less is more in most cases, so that would be one of my guiding principles.  

 

[smac97]

On 4/21/2016 at 1:08 PM, hope_for_things said:

Start with a critical analysis of the purpose of the honor code in the first place.  Evaluate the pros and cons of each element in the current code.  Look at enforcement, and the culture that the honor code creates.  Prioritize what you want out of a well rounded graduate.  Put everything on the table for change, don't consider that any of the current practices sacred cows.  Start over from scratch and see what you can come up with.  At the end of the day, as with government, I always think that less is more in most cases, so that would be one of my guiding principles.  

So you cannot identify any proposed change to the Honor Code?  "Start over from scratch" is all you've got?  I don't think that's reasonable.

Thanks,

-Smac

[mtomm]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

My cousin has been a bishop for a few years now and he's wearing a full beard, nicely trimmed.  He's living in Western Europe currently.  One of the Apostles visited a regional conference that they recently had and he shook my cousin's hand and talked to him for a minute.  I think he was nervous that the Apostle would ask him what his calling was, but thankfully didn't.  Too bad that would never fly in Utah....

In the early 90's my FIL had a full beard and was a bishop in Utah. Again, leadership roulette. The first question I asked the SP when we were in his office getting the call was: "He won't have to shave his beard, right?" 

[hope_for_things]

17 minutes ago, smac97 said:

So you cannot identify any proposed change to the Honor Code?  "Start over from scratch" is all you've got?  I don't think that's reasonable.

Thanks,

-Smac

I stated the dress and grooming standards should go away or significantly be reduced earlier.  Enforcement mechanisms should be changed significantly.  All the issues around rape victims and reporting should obviously change.  There are a lot of things.  But I'm more interested in the principles and the process.  

I also recognize that this is a taking the bait kind of question, where I give specific things that I think are wrong and you try shooting them down individually.  Maybe fun for some, but not my style.  

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, mtomm said:

In the early 90's my FIL had a full beard and was a bishop in Utah. Again, leadership roulette. The first question I asked the SP when we were in his office getting the call was: "He won't have to shave his beard, right?" 

I did that and he responded "would you accept it if I did?". He turned it into an obedience test.

I was very annoyed.

[hope_for_things]

17 minutes ago, mtomm said:

In the early 90's my FIL had a full beard and was a bishop in Utah. Again, leadership roulette. The first question I asked the SP when we were in his office getting the call was: "He won't have to shave his beard, right?" 

Ha!  Nice.  If I ever get called to that kind of a position again, I'll grow a beard for sure!  I hope to see GAs grow them again in the future. Again, too much focus on a specific appearances as being the Godly standard.  Except God seems to have a beard in all the artist renditions.....  odd how that works.  

It might be interesting to have artists draw pictures of Jesus wearing a suit and tie (missionary attire and a missionary haircut), and conversely have pictures of missionaries with dreads, tattoos, piercings, and facial hair.  ohhh  the horror!  :-)  

[Russell C McGregor]

On ‎20‎/‎04‎/‎2016 at 7:18 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

BYU experiences media backlash against it's Title IX & Honor Code policies which result in the investigation of sxual assault victims.

BYU issues statement that they will "study" the problem.

The interwebs erupt with cheers and praise for BYU and their magnanimous decision to study the problem.

Meanwhile, the women currently being investigated and prevented from registering for classes continue to be investigated and are still unable to register for classes. Nothing has changed but we are proud of BYU for at least acknowledging there might be a problem. Expectations have never been lower so at least this is something.

Amazing work, BYU! I'm proud of you for this incredible PR win.

Sincerely,

   HappyJackWagon,  Class of 1998

So you expect that the Honor Code Office should go into a state of paralysis -- why?

Because of a review, or because a few angry people have made some loud demands in newspapers?

Where you live, if a bill comes before the legislature, do all relevant state agencies act as if the putative law (the details of which they may or may not know) were already in effect?

Or do they continue to function under the laws that have already been passed?

You're faulting the HC office for not panicking?

 

[Scott Lloyd]

On 4/20/2016 at 0:15 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

Two things: 

1. "For the Strength of Youth" reflects standards applicable to all Church members, not just youth. 

2. The guidelines therein seem pretty clear and explicit to me. 

Yes, one can disregard it or interpret so loosely that you deprive it of any meaning, but doing so is not a good thing. 

 

On 4/20/2016 at 0:24 PM, hope_for_things said:

I disagree, those standards are specifically for the youth.  This is a problem in our culture, applying childish rules to grown adults, and its pervasive and a sign of immaturity.  

My point about the guidelines is that no governing institution is enforcing them.  At BYU, you have a governing body that enforces these arbitrary rules.  The FTSY pamphlet has no controlling enforcement mechanism.  This is a good thing, because that kind of enforcement is generally understood to be antithetical to the principle of agency.  

I had intended to respond to this when I saw it yesterday but haven't gotten back to it until now.

There is a wallet-sized card youth can carry that contains a condensed version of the "For the Strength Youth" pamphlet. I'll paste it below. From my review of it, there is not a single word that does not apply with equal force and validity to adults in the Church of Jesus Christ as it does to youth. In fact, it is troubling that there might exist an attitude that a member of the Church some how grows out of standards of morality, chastity, modesty, integrity, etc., once he/she becomes an adult.

The d

Quote

 

ecisions you make now will

set the course for much of what

will follow during your mortal life

and throughout eternity.

Agency and Accountability

The ability to choose is one of God’s

greatest gifts to you. The Holy Ghost

can guide you in using your agency

righteously. You are responsible for the

choices you make. Righteous choices

lead to lasting happiness.

Dating

Do not date until you are at least 16

years old. When you begin dating, go

with one or more additional couples.

Date only those who have high moral

standards. Plan activities that help you

remain close to the Spirit. As you enter

your adult years, make dating and

temple marriage a high priority.

Dress and Appearance

Your body is sacred. Dress modestly to

invite the companionship of the Spirit.

Never lower your standards of dress.

Avoid being extreme in your clothing

and behavior. Do not disgure yourself

with tattoos or body piercings. Dress

appropriately for Church meetings.

Education

The Lord wants you to educate your

mind and develop your skills and talents.

Education will prepare you for greater

service in the world and in the Church.

Be willing to work diligently and make

sacrices to obtain an education. Your

education should include spiritual learn-

ing. Participate in seminary.

Entertainment and Media

Select only entertainment and media

that uplift you. Avoid anything that is

vulgar, immoral, violent, or porno-

graphic in any way. Leave or change

any situation if what you see or hear

drives away the Spirit. Be careful that

your use of social media does not

replace spending time with your family

and friends.

Family

Be cheerful, helpful, and considerate

of family members. Honor your par-

ents by showing love and respect for

them. Strengthen your relationships

with your brothers and sisters. Prepare

now to fulll your divine roles as a

husband or wife and as a parent.

Friends

Choose friends who share your high

standards. Show genuine interest in

others. Treat everyone with kindness

and respect. Invite your friends of

other faiths to Church activities.

Reach out to new converts and to

those who are less active.

Gratitude

Have a spirit of gratitude in all you

do and say. Thank your Father in

Heaven for your blessings, and

express your gratitude to others who

bless your life.

Honesty and Integrity

Be honest with yourself, others, and

God. Do not rationalize that being

dishonest is acceptable. Have integ-

rity, and be willing to live by your

standards and beliefs at all times,

even when no one is watching.

Language

Use language that uplifts, encourages,

and compliments others. Always use

the names of God and Jesus Christ

with reverence and respect. Do

not use profane, vulgar, or crude

language or gestures. If you have

the habit of swearing, gossiping, or

speaking in anger, you can change.

Music and Dancing

Music can help you draw closer to

Heavenly Father. Do not listen to

music that encourages immorality,

glories violence, or uses offensive

language. When dancing, avoid

full body contact or moves that are

suggestive of sexual behavior.

Attend only dances where the

Spirit may be present.

Physical and Emotional Health

Your body is a temple. To care for

it, obey the Word of Wisdom. Eat

nutritious food, exercise regularly,

and get enough sleep. Do not use

 

F

coffee, tea, tobacco products, alcohol,

or any drug that may harm your body

or mind. Avoid abusing prescription

or over-the-counter medications.

Seek healthy solutions to problems,

and do all you can to safeguard your

physical and emotional health.

Repentance

Through the Savior’s Atonement,

you can receive forgiveness and be

cleansed from your sins when you

repent. To repent, confess your sins

to the Lord. Serious sins need to be

confessed to your bishop. Be com-

pletely honest with him.

Sabbath Day Observance

On the Sabbath, attend all your

Church meetings, partake of the sac-

rament, spend quiet time with your

family, and serve others. Do not seek

entertainment or make purchases on

this day. Whenever possible, choose a

job that does not require you to work

on Sundays. Observing the Sabbath

will bring you closer to the Lord.

Service

Serve others in your home and in

your Church assignments, school, and

community. Often the most mean-

ingful service is expressed through

simple, everyday acts of kindness.

Seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost

to know whom to serve.

Sexual Purity

When you are sexually pure, you

prepare yourself to make and keep

sacred temple covenants. Do not have

any sexual relations before marriage.

Do not participate in discussions or

any media that arouse sexual feelings.

Homosexual and lesbian behavior is

a serious sin. Victims of sexual abuse

should seek help from parents or

another trusted adult and their bishop.

Tithes and Offerings

Pay tithing willingly with a thankful

heart. Attend tithing settlement. Obey

the law of the fast.

Work and Self-Reliance

Develop the capacity to work. Learn

early to handle your money wisely and

live within your means. Avoid idleness.

Develop self-reliance, and use the bless-

ings and abilities God has given you to

care for yourself and your family.

Go Forward with Faith

Kneel each morning and night in

prayer, and study the scriptures each

day. Keep the covenants that you

have made. When possible, attend the

temple. Follow the teachings of the

prophets and other leaders. Be humble

and willing to listen to the Holy Ghost.

The Lord will give you the help you

need to meet your trials and challenges.

 

 

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Start with a critical analysis of the purpose of the honor code in the first place.  Evaluate the pros and cons of each element in the current code.  Look at enforcement, and the culture that the honor code creates.  Prioritize what you want out of a well rounded graduate.  Put everything on the table for change, don't consider that any of the current practices sacred cows.  Start over from scratch and see what you can come up with.  At the end of the day, as with government, I always think that less is more in most cases, so that would be one of my guiding principles.  

 

This assumes that all our forebears were idiots and not nearly as enlightened as we our in our day.  It also assumes that we must adapt to the modern culture by abandoning all that has gone on before.  I can understand changing some specifics, but I see no reason to throw out the core principles in favor of whatever way the wind is blowing. 

[hope_for_things]

26 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

I had intended to respond to this when I saw it yesterday but haven't gotten back to it until now.

There is a wallet-sized card youth can carry that contains a condensed version of the "For the Strength Youth" pamphlet. I'll paste it below. From my review of it, there is not a single word that does not apply with equal force and validity to adults in the Church of Jesus Christ as it does to youth. In fact, it is troubling that there might exist an attitude that a member of the Church some how grows out of standards of morality, chastity, modesty, integrity, etc., once he/she becomes an adult.

The d

 

In Mormon terms its the milk before meat principle, although I think that has been a misused principle more often than not.

In non-Mormon terms its demonstrated in every facet of our society.  Appropriate age to vote, to drink, to smoke, for media use, for learning about serious topics around abuse, violence, sex, etc.  In scientific studies they have found very interesting things about brain development at different ages as well, and evidence for behaviors that can do damage in cases where a person's brain isn't fully developed.  

Now trying to empathize with your POV, I can understand why you'd say that growing out of a morality standard is troubling.  I would say that its not that an adult has transcended the morality of a particular topic, but an adult will understand that topic on a more sophisticated level, and can make decisions about that topic in a more mature way.  An adult can understand relativity better, and appreciate how different circumstances create different scenarios with gray areas where a younger person may not be able to grasp the meaning of these things.  

Much of the correlated curriculum often caters to the less mature ideal and a binary construct.  The milk of the gospel message.  While this does a nice job providing basic sustenance for the members, it doesn't do well in helping them graduate into more complex stages of understanding.  

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

In Mormon terms its the milk before meat principle, although I think that has been a misused principle more often than not.

In non-Mormon terms its demonstrated in every facet of our society.  Appropriate age to vote, to drink, to smoke, for media use, for learning about serious topics around abuse, violence, sex, etc.  In scientific studies they have found very interesting things about brain development at different ages as well, and evidence for behaviors that can do damage in cases where a person's brain isn't fully developed.  

Now trying to empathize with your POV, I can understand why you'd say that growing out of a morality standard is troubling.  I would say that its not that an adult has transcended the morality of a particular topic, but an adult will understand that topic on a more sophisticated level, and can make decisions about that topic in a more mature way.  An adult can understand relativity better, and appreciate how different circumstances create different scenarios with gray areas where a younger person may not be able to grasp the meaning of these things.  

Much of the correlated curriculum often caters to the less mature ideal and a binary construct.  The milk of the gospel message.  While this does a nice job providing basic sustenance for the members, it doesn't do well in helping them graduate into more complex stages of understanding.  

I will let the individual reader look through the content of the "For the Strength of Youth" card and decide for him/herself which, if any, of those standards do not apply to covenant-making adults in The Church of Jesus Christ.

[Bernard Gui]

14 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

My experience is that our teachings and behaviors frequently fall short of this standard.  

Well, obviously your experience is lacking.   A quick glance through the most recent conference talks and Priesthood/Relief Society study guides would

confirm my view on our teachings, but perhaps you see them differently. Would you please point out a talk or lesson where outward appearances are emphasized 

in preference to the Inner Man...repentance, faithfulness, generosity, forgiveness, charity, etc.?  

 

Since we are all sinners, our behaviors always fall short.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

In Mormon terms its the milk before meat principle, although I think that has been a misused principle more often than not.

In non-Mormon terms its demonstrated in every facet of our society.  Appropriate age to vote, to drink, to smoke, for media use, for learning about serious topics around abuse, violence, sex, etc.  In scientific studies they have found very interesting things about brain development at different ages as well, and evidence for behaviors that can do damage in cases where a person's brain isn't fully developed.  

Now trying to empathize with your POV, I can understand why you'd say that growing out of a morality standard is troubling.  I would say that its not that an adult has transcended the morality of a particular topic, but an adult will understand that topic on a more sophisticated level, and can make decisions about that topic in a more mature way.  An adult can understand relativity better, and appreciate how different circumstances create different scenarios with gray areas where a younger person may not be able to grasp the meaning of these things.  

Much of the correlated curriculum often caters to the less mature ideal and a binary construct.  The milk of the gospel message.  While this does a nice job providing basic sustenance for the members, it doesn't do well in helping them graduate into more complex stages of understanding.  

Sometimes we look beyond the mark. 

[Bernard Gui]

13 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Start with a critical analysis of the purpose of the honor code in the first place.  Evaluate the pros and cons of each element in the current code.  Look at enforcement, and the culture that the honor code creates.  Prioritize what you want out of a well rounded graduate.  Put everything on the table for change, don't consider that any of the current practices sacred cows.  Start over from scratch and see what you can come up with.  At the end of the day, as with government, I always think that less is more in most cases, so that would be one of my guiding principles.  

 

For your convenience, here is the stated purpose of the Honor Code. Perhaps you could make a few suggestions for improvement?

Quote

Brigham Young University, Brigham Young University-Hawaii, Brigham Young University-Idaho, and LDS Business College exist to provide an education in an atmosphere consistent with the ideals and principles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That atmosphere is created and preserved through commitment to conduct that reflects those ideals and principles. Members of the faculty, administration, staff, and student body at BYU, BYU-H, BYU-I, and LDSBC are selected and retained from among individuals who voluntarily live the principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Observance of such is a specific condition of employment and admission. Those individuals who are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are also expected to maintain the same standards of conduct, except church attendance. All who represent BYU, BYU-H, BYU-I, and LDSBC are to maintain the highest standards of honor, integrity, morality, and consideration of others in personal behavior. By accepting appointment on the faculty, continuing in employment, or continuing class enrollment, individuals evidence their commitment to observe the Honor Code standards approved by the Board of Trustees "at all times and…in all places" (Mosiah 18:9).

 

[hope_for_things]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Well, obviously your experience is lacking.   A quick glance through the most recent conference talks and Priesthood/Relief Society study guides would

confirm my view on our teachings, but perhaps you see them differently. Would you please point out a talk or lesson where outward appearances are emphasized 

in preference to the Inner Man...repentance, faithfulness, generosity, forgiveness, charity, etc.?  

 

Since we are all sinners, our behaviors always fall short.

Its pervasive in the culture.  Its the talks about modesty and grooming, the disdain towards people with tattoos and piercings, the white shirt standard for Aaronic priesthood holders, the discussions about outward expressions of an inner commitment.  All of that rhetoric seeps into everything we do.  The perfect family appearances that people put on to conform to the norm.  I think its everywhere in Mormonism. 

[Bernard Gui]

On April 22, 2016 at 7:49 AM, hope_for_things said:

Its pervasive in the culture.  Its the talks about modesty and grooming, the disdain towards people with tattoos and piercings, the white shirt standard for Aaronic priesthood holders, the discussions about outward expressions of an inner commitment.  All of that rhetoric seeps into everything we do.  The perfect family appearances that people put on to conform to the norm.  I think its everywhere in Mormonism. 

Our standards (and by extension the CES Honor Code) are derived from the principals set forth in our 13th Article of Faith and are solidly based on scripture. 

Modesty..... being modest as opposed to immodesty? The doctrine and practice are based on the temple garment, a foundational element of our religion.

Grooming..... being well groomed as opposed to slovenliness? Are we talking Esquire/Vogue grooming or just general healthy self-respecting cleanliness?

The Honor Code statement should not be offensive to the thinking of any Latter-day Saint: 

Quote

The dress and grooming of both men and women should always be modest, neat, and clean, consistent with the dignity

adherent to representing The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and any of its institutions of higher education.

Tattoos and piercings.... currently pervasive fads in pop culture, but will surely pass leaving scarring for life. The doctrine is found in Paul's statement "the body is the temple of God." Advising against them does not equate with disdain.

White shirt standard.... 168 hours in a week. Wearing a white shirt for 1.5 hours of the week (1% of your time) is not an onerous expectation. Dressing nicely to represent Christ for a few moments at the sacrament table is a minor sacrifice.

Outward expressions of inner commitment. Letting your light shine, doing unto others, showing your faith by your works..... precisely what Jesus and James required of the early Church. Not a particularly tortuous topic for repeated discussions.

Seeping rhetoric.... others may see it as prophetic admonition and instruction. We are free to accept or reject it. 

Perfect family appearances.... Striving towards an ideal is the object of this mortal existence. Fortunately, we have the Atonement to nudge us along the way. Surely some get caught up in appearances, but hopefully they learn the folly of that without experiencing the hard way not to get caught up. It would be daunting to find a Conference talk or  Priesthood/Relief Society/YM/YW/Primary/missionary lesson that teaches we or our families should put on the garment of perfect appearances. In fact, the preponderance of those teaching would be just the opposite.

Some prefer to look at our brothers and sisters in the gospel through the lens of charity. We are all doing the best we can. 

Edited April 23, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[hope_for_things]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Our standards (and by extension the CES Honor Code) are derived from the principals set forth in our 13th Article of Faith and are solidly based on scripture. 

Modesty..... being modest as opposed to immodesty? The doctrine and practice are based on the temple garment, a foundational element of our religion.

Grooming..... being well groomed as opposed to slovenliness? Are we talking Esquire/Vogue grooming or just general healthy self-respecting cleanliness?

The Honor Code statement should not be offensive to the thinking of any Latter-day Saint: 

Tattoos and piercings.... currently pervasive fads in pop culture, but will surely pass leaving scarring for life. The doctrine is found in Paul's statement "the body is the temple of God." Advising against them does not equate with disdain.

White shirt standard.... 168 hours in a week. Wearing a white shirt for 1.5 hours of the week (1% of your time) is not an onerous expectation. Dressing nicely to represent Christ for a few moments at the sacrament table is a minor sacrifice.

Outward expressions of inner commitment. Letting your light shine, doing unto others, showing your faith by your works..... precisely what Jesus and James required of the early Church. Not a particularly tortuous topic for repeated discussions.

Seeping rhetoric.... others may see it as prophetic admonition and instruction. We are free to accept or reject it. 

Perfect family appearances.... Striving towards an ideal is the object of this mortal existence. Fortunately, we have the Atonement to nudge us along the way. Surely some get caught up in appearances, but hopefully they learn the folly of that without experiencing the d way not to get caught up. It would be daunting to find a Conference talk or  Priesthood/Relief Society/YM/YW/Primary/missionary lesson that teaches we or our families should put on the garment of perfect appearances. In fact, the preponderance of those teaching would be just the opposite.

Some prefer to look at our brothers and sisters in the gospel through the lens of charity. We are all doing the best we can. 

I would categorize all of the above as culturally influenced interpretations of appendages to the gospel.  And when taken to extremes, which I believe the honor code interpretations are taken to extremes, then they become antithetical to the gospel and undermine the purpose of it.  

The core message of the gospel as I believe it to be is primarily about grace, love, redemption, forgiveness.  The things you listed above to me are examples of Pharisaical behaviors and warned about by Jesus. 

For example, I think its fine if an individual wants to dress a particular way.  Whether that is culturally accepted as a "normal" expression or not, doesn't matter to God.  And by focusing on dress in the first place we are focusing on a behavior that has no ultimate value in accomplishing the core messages of the gospel.  I think its all backwards, upside down, messed up priorities.  Our Mormon culture has gotten way off track in this way.  

 

[mtomm]

22 hours ago, Calm said:

I did that and he responded "would you accept it if I did?". He turned it into an obedience test.

I was very annoyed.

I think that is it exactly. My husband's beard was very well groomed and not in the least shaggy (his neck, the back of his neck, etc and shaved.)  Making him shave is checking his obedience. Ugh. He was good about it but I've been annoyed for a very long time now.  Maybe it was the impetus to my irritation with many church "policies" and the reason I seem so cantankerous at MDDB!

[Russell C McGregor]

6 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Its pervasive in the culture.  Its the talks about modesty and grooming, the disdain towards people with tattoos and piercings,

Call for references, please.

6 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

the white shirt standard for Aaronic priesthood holders, the discussions about outward expressions of an inner commitment.

You say it yourself, and yet you still miss the point.

6 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

 All of that rhetoric seeps into everything we do.  The perfect family appearances that people put on to conform to the norm.  I think its everywhere in Mormonism. 

I think you see what you want to see.

"When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will."

 

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I would categorize all of the above as culturally influenced interpretations of appendages to the gospel.  And when taken to extremes, which I believe the honor code interpretations are taken to extremes, then they become antithetical to the gospel and undermine the purpose of it.  

The core message of the gospel as I believe it to be is primarily about grace, love, redemption, forgiveness.  The things you listed above to me are examples of Pharisaical behaviors and warned about by Jesus. 

For example, I think its fine if an individual wants to dress a particular way.  Whether that is culturally accepted as a "normal" expression or not, doesn't matter to God.  And by focusing on dress in the first place we are focusing on a behavior that has no ultimate value in accomplishing the core messages of the gospel.  I think its all backwards, upside down, messed up priorities.  Our Mormon culture has gotten way off track in this way.  

 

If they would just concentrate on the things that really matter.

[hope_for_things]

30 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

Call for references, please.

Its right in the FTSY pamphlet that Scott linked to above in the thread.  " Do not disfigure yourself with tattoos or body piercings "  I recall Hinckley talking about it, although I'm sure others have more recently as well.  

You say it yourself, and yet you still miss the point.

You'll have to elaborate on this point, I don't follow.  

I think you see what you want to see.

"When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will."

Agreed, but this goes both ways.  You can see bad in things if you look hard enough.  You can also ignore the bad and live life blissfully ignorant of the negatives.  I try to take a pragmatic approach, but I would consider myself an optimist.  I don't live my life surrounded with negativity.  I have high hopes for the Mormon culture in the future and I see signs of improvement, but I also see signs of negative movement.  I can see both sides, can you?  

 

[Russell C McGregor]

13 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Its right in the FTSY pamphlet that Scott linked to above in the thread.  " Do not disfigure yourself with tattoos or body piercings "  I recall Hinckley talking about it, although I'm sure others have more recently as well.

Yes, I know all about that. I'm asking for some documentation in support of your rather nasty accusation that the Church displays and/or encourages "disdain towards people with tattoos and piercings." Advising against getting such things is not evidence of "disdain towards" those who do.

13 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

You'll have to elaborate on this point, I don't follow.

That much is apparent.

All those "outer" things that you imagine the Church is obsessing over (in the which I suspect you may be projecting) are only relevant because they are indicative of an inner commitment. If they ceased to indicate such, the Church would cease to encourage them.

In the 1950's, Mormon men usually wore white shirts and ties to Church, without any encouragement from their leaders. Can you guess why that might be the case?

 

[Scott Lloyd]

20 hours ago, Russell C McGregor said:

Call for references, please.

You say it yourself, and yet you still miss the point.

I think you see what you want to see.

"When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will."

 

This is a great quote -- with a funny story attached to it.

The quote is from the movie "Pollyanna," in which it was falsely attributed to Abraham Lincoln.

From the Internet Movie Database:

 

Quote

Roy O. Disney, studio business head and brother to Walt Disney, issued thousands of "Pollyanna Photo Locket Necklaces" as a promotional item containing the famous quote attributed to Abraham Lincoln in the movie. Discovering the necklace in a gift shop while on vacation with his family, director / screenwriter David Swift called the studio to have the item recalled immediately. Lincoln never said, "When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will." Swift had simply made it up.

 

[Bernard Gui]

On April 22, 2016 at 11:06 AM, hope_for_things said:

I would categorize all of the above as culturally influenced interpretations of appendages to the gospel.  And when taken to extremes, which I believe the honor code interpretations are taken to extremes, then they become antithetical to the gospel and undermine the purpose of it.  

The core message of the gospel as I believe it to be is primarily about grace, love, redemption, forgiveness.  The things you listed above to me are examples of Pharisaical behaviors and warned about by Jesus. 

For example, I think its fine if an individual wants to dress a particular way.  Whether that is culturally accepted as a "normal" expression or not, doesn't matter to God.  And by focusing on dress in the first place we are focusing on a behavior that has no ultimate value in accomplishing the core messages of the gospel.  I think its all backwards, upside down, messed up priorities.  Our Mormon culture has gotten way off track in this way.  

 

Interesting. The garment is hardly an appendage to the gospel. Could you explain how observing the sacredness of the garment by dressing in a manner that keeps it from public view is Pharisaical? I am curious how

wearing a white shirt for 15 minutes to officiate at the sacrament table is something Jesus warned about. Please explain why advising against tattoos or body piercing is offensive to Jesus. 

 

Here is what Jesus said about his Church. He explicitly declared the core message of His Gospel in 3 Nephi 27.

Quote

 

And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.

Verily I say unto you, that ye are built upon my gospel; therefore ye shall call whatsoever things ye do call, in my name; therefore if ye call upon the Father, for the church, if it be in my name the Father will hear you;

And if it so be that the church is built upon my gospel then will the Father show forth his own works in it.

But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you they have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return.

For their works do follow them, for it is because of their works that they are hewn down; therefore remember the things that I have told you.

Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.

And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.

And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.

And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.

And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.

And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.

Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day.

And then to make sure we understand, He repeated it in D&C 33

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 Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.

Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved;

And upon this rock I will build my church; yea, upon this rock ye are built, and if ye continue, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

And ye shall remember the church articles and covenants to keep them.

 

and then again in D&C 39

Quote

And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.

 

 

Edited April 23, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On April 22, 2016 at 2:05 PM, Jeanne said:

If they would just concentrate on the things that really matter.

What are some of the things that really matter that they should concentrate on?