BYU Honor Code Review

[smac97]

On 4/20/2016 at 3:43 PM, hope_for_things said:

I could see we are clearly on a completely different wavelength of thought.  Better to bring the dialogue to an end than to run circles around each other. 

Right.  

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

I think beards and mustaches look "scuzzy," and think that a clean-cut look gives a better impression and looks better. Maybe that's not a good enough reason to retain an "archaic" grooming standard . . .

As a woman..clean cut is nice..but it is just nice,    I like a trimmed beard and a nice mustache.  My husband had a nice beard.  What I think is funny is I have seen men with nice beards but no mustache and it looks so.o.o. wrong!  Put Tom Selleck in a beard and mustache and I am a happy woman!

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I think its time that the whole honor code be re-evaluted.  Put all the pros and cons on the table for the existing policies and practices.  No assumptions about tradition.  No hard fast conclusions that because something is a church standard, that it must be enforced in a particular way.  Even little bugaboos like facial hair and dress code should be re-evaluated.  I hope the school takes the time to consider all the consequences of the previous honor code policy, and determines what the best direction is to go in the future.  

Is BYU a place where compulsion, spying and outward appearances are values that they want to foster?  I hope they take a pragmatic approach and think about what values they want to promote at the end of the day.  I'm hopeful for change, it certainly is needed. 

We used to joke that, if Jesus Himself came on campus wearing sandals and beard, He might very well be tossed off campus.  Of course we were only joking, since visitors may wear beards these days.  However, when I was baptized in 1950, all but one LDS president was bearded, and when I registered at BYU in 1963, beards were permitted.  A lot has changed since then:  A rabbi attending BYU in the late 1960s had to obtain written permission to wear a beard, as well as permission to drink wine as part of Jewish ritual.

[Jeanne]

47 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

We used to joke that, if Jesus Himself came on campus wearing sandals and beard, He might very well be tossed off campus.  Of course we were only joking, since visitors may wear beards these days.  However, when I was baptized in 1950, all but one LDS president was bearded, and when I registered at BYU in 1963, beards were permitted.  A lot has changed since then:  A rabbi attending BYU in the late 1960s had to obtain written permission to wear a beard, as well as permission to drink wine as part of Jewish ritual.

Really??  I wonder what the Rabbi thought of that...

[Russell C McGregor]

4 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Really??  I wonder what the Rabbi thought of that...

Given that he was attending a Mormon school, I rather expect he would have had the good sense to make sure he knew what the standard were going in.

 

[Sine Saw Square]

3 hours ago, rongo said:

Not the John Taylor, clean-shaven except for the jowls and under the chin look.

That's now the property of the Islamist.

[Jeanne]

11 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

Given that he was attending a Mormon school, I rather expect he would have had the good sense to make sure he knew what the standard were going in.

 

Oh..of course.  He may have expected that. But that doesn't tell us what he was thinking...

Edited April 21, 2016 by Jeanne

[Storm Rider]

What is determined modest or wholesome is obviously affected by the times or the culture in which people live.  Modesty in the Middle East is certainly not what is determined as modest in the USA or India.  

I think that having an HC at BYU is appropriate and acceptable.  I support the idea.  I do not support have rules that are changed willy-nilly with the times.  It seems that gradual change on some of the specifics, but the core principles is what is important.  

As an aside, I am so glad the fine, young women who attended BYU have made the national news and have brought a law suit against BYU.  Yes, the epitome of what an American will think of first every time - sue.  Warms my heart it does; no need to think of ourselves as peculiar in the least; we have absorbed the very best of US culture.  Don't like something - sue.  Don't worry about keeping your word - sue them for having a standard in the first place and the expectation that every student should meet it. 

[VideoGameJunkie]

The Associated Press picked up the story. http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/byu-students-investigated-by-school-after-reporting-rape/ar-BBs1Ub3?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=DELLDHP

PROVO, Utah — Madeline MacDonald says she was an 18-year-old freshman at Brigham Young University when she was sexually assaulted by a man she met on an online dating site.

She reported the crime to the school's Title IX office. That same day, she says, BYU's honor code office received a copy of the report, triggering an investigation into whether MacDonald had violated the Mormon school's strict code of behavior, which bans premarital sex and drinking, among other things.

Now MacDonald is among many students and others, including a Utah prosecutor, who are questioning BYU's practice of investigating accusers, saying it could discourage women from reporting sexual violence and hinder criminal cases.

Some have started an online petition drive calling on the university to give victims immunity from honor code violations committed in the lead-up to a sexual assault.

This week, BYU announced that in light of such concerns, the school will re-evaluate the practice and consider changes.

"I hope we have a system that people feel they can trust, particularly again the victims of sexual assault," BYU President Kevin Worthen said in a video released Wednesday. "And that we have one that creates an environment in which we minimize the number of sexual assaults on campus."

BYU would not say how many students who complained of sexual violence have been investigated by the honor code office or whether any of them have been punished.

In MacDonald's case, she said BYU eventually called to tell her she hadn't violated the code. But she said she was made to feel guilty by the university.

"For those two weeks, I wasn't sure if they were going to decide to kick me out or what they were going to do," she said. Two years later, no arrest has have been made in the assault case.

All BYU students must agree to abide by the honor code. Created by students in 1949, it prohibits such things as "sexual misconduct," ''obscene or indecent conduct or expressions" and "involvement with pornographic, erotic, indecent or offensive material." Violators can be expelled or otherwise punished.

Mary Koss, a public health professor at the University of Arizona who is an expert on sexual assault, questioned whether BYU is fulfilling its legal duty under federal Title IX to support victims of sexual violence.

"The students agreed to be governed by that honor code when they came there," she said. "But they cannot put things in their contract to students that are in violation of federal guidelines on civil rights."

Alana Kindness, executive director of the Utah Coalition Against Sexual Assault, warned: "The impact of that practice is that students at BYU who are sexually assaulted will not report that assault."

U.S. Education Department spokeswoman Dorie Nolt would not comment directly on BYU. But she said in an email that "schools should consider whether their disciplinary policies have a chilling effect on victims' or other students' reporting of sexual violence offenses."

Some U.S. colleges with codes of conduct have an immunity clause under which they investigate and punish only the perpetrator of the more severe offense.

On Wednesday, dozens of BYU students, alumni and others gathered at the campus entrance to present petition signatures to BYU's president. Many wore teal bands on their arms and mouths to signify sexual assault awareness and held signs that read "BYU: Protect victims, don't shame them."

"There is no honor in this archaic code," said protester Brooke Swallow-Fenton, who added that investigations of accusers have been going on for years at BYU.

The petition drive was started last week by Madi Barney, a 20-year-old BYU student who says that she, too, was sexually assaulted and now faces an honor code investigation.

Barney said that she was raped in her apartment last September by a man she met at a gym. A suspect was arrested and is awaiting trial. Barney said she has been informed by the university that until the honor code investigation has been completed, she cannot sign up for any more classes after this semester.

She has filed a Title IX sex-discrimination complaint against BYU with the Education Department's Office of Civil Rights.

The university would not comment on the case, citing federal privacy law. The Associated Press doesn't normally identify possible victims of sex crimes, but Barney said she wants her name to be used so she can help change the policy.

Craig Johnson, the Utah County prosecutor assigned to the case, said the criminal investigation is being hindered by BYU's insistence on determining if Barney broke school rules. He said his focus has been pulled away from the case because of worries Barney will move home to California and refuse to take part in hearings and interviews.

"How excited is she really going to be to come back to Utah where she was raped and her school kicked her out?" Johnson said.

However, Johnson's bosses in the Utah County Attorney's Office said in a statement that BYU has not harmed the case.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Really??  I wonder what the Rabbi thought of that...

I spoke with him about it, and he didn't seem bothered at all.  Also, he taught Hebrew to BYU students in regular classes.  He said that, as soon as they realized that he was not going to become a Mormon, things went along fine.

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Do other schools have dress codes?  When I attended other universities, I don't recall them having any dress codes, yet I don't remember people showing up naked to class.  Seems like a dress code for adults isn't really needed.  

You could ask people to dress appropriately and be respectful of others in the honor code, and then let them govern themselves.  Exceptions will happen from time to time, I'm sure extreme examples can be addressed without having an explicit guideline around dress and grooming.  

A cello student of mine went to audition for entrance in a major music school in the Midwest. In one of the areas near the audition rooms there was a young man practicing his violin........in the nude. His violin, however, had a G string. She decided not to go there.

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, smac97 said:

I must admit I was not familiar with the connotation.  I'm glad I never grew a mustache in my twenties!

As regarding the "mustaches and not beards" thing, I suspect BYU was trying to provide an accommodation but not a capitulation.  The general notion of well-groomed BYU students may be the governing principle in play here, and perhaps the Powers-That-Be felt that a neatly-trimmed mustache fell within that objective, but that beards do not.  I dunno.  I'm just spitballing here.

Principled distinctions can and must be made all the time.  Hence we have statutes of limitation that allow a person to bring a legal claim within a set period of time (say four years), but not in four years and one day.  Or driving 25 MPH on the street next to my house is legal, but driving 26 MPH is a crime.  Barack Obama had zero authority to govern United States on January 19, 2009, but the next day he became the most powerful man in the world by . . . taking an oath. 

These may seem cold or unfair or arbitrary.  But rules and guidelines have to be delineated somehow.  So those in authority (hopefully) do their best with what they've got (I have far more faith in the decency, humility, and competency of the Brethren than I do in leaders of secular governments).

Thanks,

-Smac

I witnessed the sea change first hand. In 1964, my roommate at Helaman Halls and I both had beards...he a short Brigham and I a George Albert. The next year they were verboten. The reason was the association of facial hair with rebellion and rejection of authority. Several years later, I was nabbed at registration because my 'stache drooped below my mouth corners. I had to go trim it in order to register. It was embarrassing, but I've managed to cope through the years. Dr Ralph Laycock, BYU band and orchestra director at the time, sported some pretty hefty mutton chops. Interestingly, he was called out for them in a music concert review in the Daily Planet...I mean Universe.....  by none other than.......................................................................................................Paul Toscano.

Beards grow back. It's no big deal to have to shave them off for the Church when needed.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Your comments prove my point that our culture is way to focused on the exterior, and way to sheltered and obsessed with these subjective constructs around modesty.  

I went to a state university, but it was in Utah, so I'm sure dress was more conservative than in other places around the country, but it wasn't a problem.  We need to quit focusing on the exterior as a measure of someone's righteousness or worth, or out of some Victorian behavioral standards.  

What is appropriate for one person is not appropriate for another.  Having tolerance and accepting people with their differences is what we should be worried about.  

The Church puts far more emphasis on the welfare of the Inner Man than the Outward Appearance.

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, mapman said:

I agree. As a BYU student I think that living the honor code is in fact an honorable thing to do. I wouldn't mind them changing the beard thing, but all in all I think it is good for BYU students to commit to living a higher moral standard. The way that the Honor Code Office enforces the honor code, however, definitely needs to be looked at. I guess we'll see what happens.

How does the Honor Code Office enforce the Honor Code? Would you be specific, please?

[mtomm]

18 hours ago, rongo said:

I think beards and mustaches look "scuzzy," and think that a clean-cut look gives a better impression and looks better. Maybe that's not a good enough reason to retain an "archaic" grooming standard . . .

I'm counting the days till my husband is longer bishop (it's been six plus years so I'm really hoping it is days) and he can return to wearing his beard. Sigh. I really wish it was my opinion that determined the grooming standards of men at BYU. I'd require beards for a lot of them.

[HappyJackWagon]

19 hours ago, Calm said:

It has been, what, two business days since the announcements.  Have they been questioned in this time or have they just not received notification that their suspensions have been suspended?

It was said the policies would be studied, not changed.  I am hoping the Title IX office will be isolated from the Honor Code office, but I don't insist they start doing it now before they barely get started.  Change doesn't happen overnight.

I am applauding that they are willing to consider change.  I will applaud most likely if change takes place.  I am not confusing the two.

Nothing has changed. That was my point.

Why give them credit for "studying". That's like a child giving his mother credit for buying him chocolate milk when all she really said is "I'll think about it." Thinking about it doesn't put chocolate milk in my glass. Nothing has changed.

I'll give BYU credit when they make useful changes, not for "thinking about it." Until then, the call for a study, or blue-ribbon commission seems like little more than a political stalling tactic we see so often when an institution is trying to divert attention from a scandal.

Nothing has changed.

Edited April 21, 2016 by HappyJackWagon

[Jeanne]

11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I spoke with him about it, anId he didn't seem bothered at all.  Also, he taught Hebrew to BYU students in regular classes.  He said that, as soon as they realized that he was not going to become a Mormon, things went along fine.

I love it!!  Kudos to those who want to learn Hebrew!!

[rongo]

2 hours ago, mtomm said:

I'm counting the days till my husband is longer bishop (it's been six plus years so I'm really hoping it is days) and he can return to wearing his beard. Sigh. I really wish it was my opinion that determined the grooming standards of men at BYU. I'd require beards for a lot of them.

Some men look way better with facial hair. We had a high councilor who had to shave his goatee, and his face looked emaciated and scrawny without it. He looked much better with it.

My first counselor the last time I was a bishop had a distinguished white mustache, and he had to shave it. He, too, looked better with it than without it. 

I think that most men actually look much better clean-shaven. This is 1000 x the case if we're talking about the scummy-looking beards that are in vogue that make men look maggot-infested and like a castaway. That's the big style that's gaining momentum, and I think the Church is well-served discouraging this look at our universities and among our leadership.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Why give them credit for "studying". That's like a child giving his mother credit for buying him chocolate milk when all she really said is "I'll think about it." Thinking about it doesn't put chocolate milk in my glass. Nothing has changed.

 

Not quite.  This type of commitment at the very least means that the university is putting valuable resources of time and money on the issue.

Now they may not end up using much and if they don't, then I will be expressing my disappointment, but if you want change in people, you should offer positive reinforcement when there is movement in that direction, no matter how small.  Basic psychology.  If you criticize any effort because it appears to be not enough inyour view, you are more lilely to kill the desire to change than promote it.

[hope_for_things]

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

I live in Provo, so I socialize with dozens, even hundreds, of BYU grads on a regular basis.  I also went to BYU (twice), as did my wife.  As did my parents, two brothers (both of whom obtained two degrees there), one sister, one sister-in-law, and three brothers-in-law.  I also had a sister and a sister-in-law attend BYU-H.

So I feel fairly familiar with the caliber of people who graduate from BYU.  They are surely flawed human beings (as are we all), but lack of maturity is not a noticeable character defect.  To the contrary, they are generally quite mature, intelligent, and self-controlled.  

So I'm inclined to dismiss your final comment is an unsubstantiated dig, nothing more.

Thanks,

-Smac

I grew up in Utah county, went to BYU (didn't graduate from there), multiple family members, BYU football season ticket holder today, etc.  I have BYU cred too.  

Maturity is an issue from my perspective.  If you look into developmental studies about faith, such as the James Fowler book on Stages of Faith, or other works that describe patterns of thought and adult development, you will see that many Mormon's are in their earlier stages of belief.  A first naivete, and haven't progressed into critically thinking about their faith.  Now this level of thinking isn't bad per say, its a level of maturity, but its not a fully developed maturity.  This also contributes to prideful thinking in some ways.  

Of course BYU people (if you can lump them all together, which you can't, but I will for the purposes of discussion) still have a level of maturity, intelligence, and self-control.  It doesn't make them immune to pride, external focus or excluding others.  It doesn't detract from my point that applying standards created specifically for the youth to adults as well is immature.  

BTW, I love these people, they are my people too and I'm a part of them as well.  I'm frank about my disagreeing with the BYU honor code because I think its antiquated and needs to change.  I'm critical of what I think are negative elements of that policy and practice that have real negative consequences.  I take this same approach to elements in my everyday work and other aspects of life that I see negatives that I believe need to change.  Its a part of how I think.  I don't think anything is perfect or even close for that matter. I think we can make changes and still preserve the essence of the mission of BYU or the church or other institutions.  

 

 

Edited April 21, 2016 by hope_for_things

[hope_for_things]

12 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

The Church puts far more emphasis on the welfare of the Inner Man than the Outward Appearance.

My experience is that our teachings and behaviors frequently fall short of this standard.  

[hope_for_things]

4 hours ago, mtomm said:

I'm counting the days till my husband is longer bishop (it's been six plus years so I'm really hoping it is days) and he can return to wearing his beard. Sigh. I really wish it was my opinion that determined the grooming standards of men at BYU. I'd require beards for a lot of them.

My cousin has been a bishop for a few years now and he's wearing a full beard, nicely trimmed.  He's living in Western Europe currently.  One of the Apostles visited a regional conference that they recently had and he shook my cousin's hand and talked to him for a minute.  I think he was nervous that the Apostle would ask him what his calling was, but thankfully didn't.  Too bad that would never fly in Utah....

[smac97]

On 4/21/2016 at 11:59 AM, hope_for_things said:

I grew up in Utah county, went to BYU (didn't graduate from there), multiple family members, BYU football season ticket holder today, etc.  I have BYU cred too.  

Maturity is an issue from my perspective.  If you look into developmental studies about faith, such as the James Fowler book on Stages of Faith, or other works that describe patterns of thought and adult development, you will see that many Mormon's are in their earlier stages of belief.  A first naivete, and haven't progressed into critically thinking about their faith.  Now this level of thinking isn't bad per say, its a level of maturity, but its not a fully developed maturity.  This also contributes to prideful thinking in some ways.  

Of course BYU people (if you can lump them all together, which you can't, but I will for the purposes of discussion) still have a level of maturity, intelligence, and self-control.  It doesn't make them immune to pride, external focus or excluding others.  It doesn't detract from my point that applying standards created specifically for the youth to adults as well is immature.  

BTW, I love these people, they are my people too and I'm a part of them as well.  I'm frank about my disagreeing with the BYU honor code because I think its antiquated and needs to change.  I'm critical of what I think are negative elements of that policy and practice that have real negative consequences.  I take this same approach to elements in my everyday work and other aspects of life that I see negatives that I believe need to change.  Its a part of how I think.  I don't think anything is perfect or even close for that matter. I think we can make changes and still preserve the essence of the mission of BYU or the church or other institutions.  

What aspects of the Honor Code do you think require change?  And what sort(s) of change(s) do you have in mind?

Thanks,

-Smac

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

Some men look way better with facial hair. We had a high councilor who had to shave his goatee, and his face looked emaciated and scrawny without it. He looked much better with it.

My first counselor the last time I was a bishop had a distinguished white mustache, and he had to shave it. He, too, looked better with it than without it. 

I think that most men actually look much better clean-shaven. This is 1000 x the case if we're talking about the scummy-looking beards that are in vogue that make men look maggot-infested and like a castaway. That's the big style that's gaining momentum, and I think the Church is well-served discouraging this look at our universities and among our leadership.

My closest friend wears a white beard and white head of hair, and is also an ordinance worker at an LDS temple.  The resemblance to a certain character in the endowment videos is uncanny, and he gets double-takes from patrons as he walks down temple hallways in his white coat.

The LDS restriction on having beards, which came into vogue within my lifetime, is silly and inappropriate -- similar to the U.S. Navy giving up bell-bottoms when the hippies began wearing them.   Centuries of great tradition were simply thrown out without a moments reflection on the meaning of it all.  Thankfully, the Jews and the Amish, among others, haven't made beards verboten.

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Not quite.  This type of commitment at the very least means that the university is putting valuable resources of time and money on the issue.

Now they may not end up using much and if they don't, then I will be expressing my disappointment, but if you want change in people, you should offer positive reinforcement when there is movement in that direction, no matter how small.  Basic psychology.  If you criticize any effort because it appears to be not enough inyour view, you are more lilely to kill the desire to change than promote it.

You are making assumptions about what "study" will mean. I understand the hope but I've seen no promises of valuable resources. I don't know what they mean by study. I don't know how long this will take. The call to "study" is intentionally vague.

Another tenet of basic psychology is setting clear expectations and then holding them accountable to expectations. It's sometimes known as the Hawthorne Effect. When people feel they are being watched and are accountable, their level of performance increases. So instead of patting them on the back for what we think are good intentions, we let them know we're still watching and have expectations beyond their intentions.