BYU Honor Code Review

[hope_for_things]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

 I judged you?  It was you who brought up the question of my honesty. And now you question my spiritual growth and charity? Your last paragraph is full of judgment of our fellow members and leaders.

I had assumed you were LDS, but your animus toward the temple and work for the dead led me to think otherwise. I am surprised that you affirm your membership and say you hold a temple recommend. Your antipathy contradicts D&C 138 and the expressed Four-fold Mission of the Church.

Disparaging work for the dead is not something one often hears from members of the Church. One could conclude from your words that you believe the Church and its leaders are out of the way because of the emphasis on the temple. How do you arrive at that conclusion? The priority of temple work is mandated by scripture and upheld by the words and actions of every prophet and apostle from Joseph to Pres Monson. But none of them suggests doing it at the expense of other service. When did they go astray?

Every ward and stake where I have lived has provided a good balance of activities that support the full gospel message. We have both temple nights and charitable service....and Cub Scout pack meetings.  Moreover, you are free to give any kind and amount of charitable service you wish. Skip temple night and instead volunteer at a homeless shelter. Why not start one yourself?

 I truly do not understand why, despite your denial, you assert they are mutually exclusive, and double down by dismissing the temple with "let the dead bury their dead." The purpose of the temple is to do for others what they cannot do for themselves.... to receive the sacred ordinances of salvation. That is at the very heart of the gospel, not an appendage to it. Jesus himself commands it.

You made it more personal when you questioned my membership.  It's one thing to talk about cultural practices and talk about groups as a whole, but its another to take a personal dig.  To me, that's inappropriate for having a respectful conversation in an online forum.  

I'm calling Temple work an appendage to the gospel, not disparaging it.  I'm talking about what I think is core, and what I think is ancillary. I do think the current emphasis is off track, and I'm hopeful that future focus is pointed towards what I believe is the core message of the gospel, love, service, charity, forgiveness.  

Your opinion about what Jesus commands is just that, it's your opinion or Pres. Monson's or whoever's.  Mine is different.  Like I said earlier, I think most current leaders would agree with your emphasis on the temple, contrasted with my belief that the emphasis is off track.  I don't think scripture supports it, but more important than scripture or current leaders emphasis, I don't think logic and reasoning and ethics support it either.  When taking all the evidence together and thinking through things rationally, I don't see the importance of repetitious temple work.  

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm calling Temple work an appendage to the gospel, not disparaging it.  I'm talking about what I think is core, and what I think is ancillary. I do think the current emphasis is off track, and I'm hopeful that future focus is pointed towards what I believe is the core message of the gospel, love, service, charity, forgiveness.  

I can't read this without thinking of the words of Joseph Smith, canonized in Section 128 of the Doctrine and Covenants:

Quote

 

 15 And now, my dearly beloved brethren and sisters, let me assure you that these are principles in relation to the dead and the living that cannot be lightly passed over, as pertaining to our salvation. For their salvation is necessary and essential to our salvation, as Paul says concerning the fathers—that they without us cannot be made perfect—neither can we without our dead be made perfect.

 16 And now, in relation to the baptism for the dead, I will give you another quotation of Paul, 1 Corinthians 15:29: Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?

 17 And again, in connection with this quotation I will give you a quotation from one of the prophets, who had his eye fixed on the restoration of the priesthood, the glories to be revealed in the last days, and in an especial manner this most glorious of all subjects belonging to the everlasting gospel, namely, the baptism for the dead; for Malachi says, last chapter, verses 5th and 6th: Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

 18 I might have rendered a plainer translation to this, but it is sufficiently plain to suit my purpose as it stands. It is sufficient to know, in this case, that the earth will be smitten with a curse unless there is a welding link of some kind or other between the fathers and the children, upon some subject or other—and behold what is that subject? It is the baptism for the dead. For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also; for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the fulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time. And not only this, but those things which never have been revealed from the foundation of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent, shall be revealed unto babes and sucklings in this, the dispensation of the fulness of times.

 

 

[hope_for_things]

9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I can't read this without thinking of the words of Joseph Smith, canonized in Section 128 of the Doctrine and Covenants:

 

I would call this creative expansion of the NT, a midrash treatment, which is perfectly fine and has value, I'm not dismissing it.  I think Joseph believed the temple rites were important.  From reading the history, I'm not sure he ever intended everyone to be initiated into the temple, I think that was a Brigham idea, I think Joseph wanted to keep it more of an exclusive club for a small group within the church.  

Also, these ideas were still evolving when he died.  The whole theology of the importance of temple work was incomplete at his death, and it wasn't internally consistent with earlier teachings either.  Joseph's later theological explorations frequently contradicted his earlier ones, the perspective that they were all consistent would be a misunderstanding of the developmental history.  

Regardless, I appreciate your adding these comments.  It doesn't prove that temple work is a core part of the gospel instead of an appendage, but it does present some of Joseph's feelings about temple work being, important and shouldn't be lightly passed over, in his opinion.  

 

[Bernard Gui]

18 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

You made it more personal when you questioned my membership.  It's one thing to talk about cultural practices and talk about groups as a whole, but its another to take a personal dig.  To me, that's inappropriate for having a respectful conversation in an online forum.  

I'm calling Temple work an appendage to the gospel, not disparaging it.  I'm talking about what I think is core, and what I think is ancillary. I do think the current emphasis is off track, and I'm hopeful that future focus is pointed towards what I believe is the core message of the gospel, love, service, charity, forgiveness.  

Your opinion about what Jesus commands is just that, it's your opinion or Pres. Monson's or whoever's.  Mine is different.  Like I said earlier, I think most current leaders would agree with your emphasis on the temple, contrasted with my belief that the emphasis is off track.  I don't think scripture supports it, but more important than scripture or current leaders emphasis, I don't think logic and reasoning and ethics support it either.  When taking all the evidence together and thinking through things rationally, I don't see the importance of repetitious temple work.  

There is nothing personal about misunderstanding your membership status. I see you have moved the goal posts. Now it is repetitious temple work that is offensive. What would that include?

What shall we make of D&C 138, then? It supports everything I have said and contradicts everything you have said, point by point. What is your evidence?

Please demonstrate how you rationalize dismissing this canonized revelation. Please explain how President Smith's vision is irrational,illogical, unreasonable, and unethical. If most current leaders would agree with me, which past or current leaders would not? Names....statements? This is quite a hole you are digging.

Quote

 30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

 31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

 32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

 33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

 34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

 35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross.

 36 Thus was it made known that our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh;

 37 That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words.

 

Edited April 27, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Tacenda]

Looks like this situation is definitely real.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3817597-155/sexual-assault-victims-say-abusers-wield

[Gray]

16 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Looks like this situation is definitely real.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3817597-155/sexual-assault-victims-say-abusers-wield

Not surprising to me. But awful nonetheless

Quote

That risk becomes a weapon when an abuser exploits it as a direct threat against a victim, said Provo Police Sgt. Brian Taylor, who has worked in the department's sex-crimes unit.

Disciplining students who report sexual assaults, Taylor said, "creates a safe haven" for abusers and a "strong disincentive" for victims to report.

"Everybody is less safe," Taylor said. "What's the greater good? Protecting the moral integrity of the institution by punishing every identifiable act of consensual sex? Or are we going to deal with predators? It seems this question needs to be asked and answered."

.

 

 

[hope_for_things]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

There is nothing personal about misunderstanding your membership status. I see you have moved the goal posts. Now it is repetitious temple work that is offensive. What would that include?

What shall we make of D&C 138, then? It supports everything I have said and contradicts everything you have said, point by point. What is your evidence?

Please demonstrate how you rationalize dismissing this canonized revelation. Please explain how President Smith's vision is irrational,illogical, unreasonable, and unethical. If most current leaders would agree with me, which past or current leaders would not? Names....statements? This is quite a hole you are digging

You've taken this out of the realm of mutually respectful dialogue, and for that reason, I'm done participating.  

[Bernard Gui]

15 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

You've taken this out of the realm of mutually respectful dialogue, and for that reason, I'm done participating.  

No, I have respectfully challenged some very odd assertions about the temple and work for the dead with scriptures and statements by prophets and apostles. You have only put forth opinions. There is nothing offensive in asking you to defend your opinions. When you get the time, please square your position with D&C 138.... especially your claim Jesus does not command our temple work. I truly would like to see it. Best wishes, BG.

[Bernard Gui]

16 hours ago, Gray said:

Not surprising to me. But awful nonetheless. 

"Everybody is less safe," Taylor said. "What's the greater good? Protecting the moral integrity of the institution by punishing every identifiable act of consensual sex? Or are we going to deal with predators? It seems this question needs to be asked and answered."

Seems like one could do both.... protect the institution and deal with the predators. They are both important.

[Gray]

13 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Seems like one could do both.... protect the institution and deal with the predators. They are both important.

At this point protecting the institution would have to include revamping the honor code in such a way that it puts protecting victims ahead of punishing minor infractions. Because the current issues that BYU is facing are much more damaging to the institution than any undergrad's minor infractions. 

Edited April 28, 2016 by Gray

[Russell C McGregor]

4 hours ago, Gray said:

At the point protecting the institution would have to include revamping the honor code in such a way that it puts protecting victims ahead of punishing minor infractions. Because the current issues that BYU is facing are much more damaging to the institution than any undergrad's minor infractions. 

But are they really "the current issues that BYU is facing?"

Or is it rather a lot of chin-wagging by outsiders?

[Bernard Gui]

16 hours ago, Gray said:

At this point protecting the institution would have to include revamping the honor code in such a way that it puts protecting victims ahead of punishing minor infractions. Because the current issues that BYU is facing are much more damaging to the institution than any undergrad's minor infractions. 

There is no set-in-stone punishment for minor infractions. There is a range of outcomes, the first of which is no action at all. Such a notion is intended to conjur up images of an Inquisition. Bernardo Gui knows about Inquisitions, and the BYU Honor Code/Office is not an Inquisition. 

[Gray]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

There is no set-in-stone punishment for minor infractions. There is a range of outcomes, the first of which is no action at all. Such a notion is intended to conjur up images of an Inquisition. Bernardo Gui knows about Inquisitions, and the BYU Honor Code/Office is not an Inquisition. 

Whatever else the honor code is, the unintended outcome is that it has become a tool that rapists can use to keep their victims silent. 

Edited April 29, 2016 by Gray

[ALarson]

3 Provo police "leaders" are calling "for changes" at BYU:  

"Police Criticize BYU Investigations Into Sex Assault Victims"

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=39557737&nid=148&title=police-criticize-byu-investigations-into-sex-assault-victims

Quote

Several Utah police officials are joining in calls to change Brigham Young University's practice of opening honor code investigations into students after they report being sexually assaulted, as more sexual assault victims reach out to police to say they have felt silenced by the policy.

 

[Tacenda]

http://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2016/04/29/byu-sexual-assault-accusers-cabrera-pkg.cnn/video/playlists/controversy-on-campus/ Looks like this thing won't go away anytime soon.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Tacenda

[Okrahomer]

11 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

http://www.cnn.com/videos/sports/2015/11/09/mizzou-football-player-strike-racism-accusations-pkg.cnn/video/playlists/controversy-on-campus/

Looks like this thing won't go away anytime soon.

Did you post the right link--this one seems to be about the football player protest over racism at the University of Missouri last year?

[Jeanne]

53 minutes ago, ALarson said:

3 Provo police "leaders" are calling "for changes" at BYU:  

"Police Criticize BYU Investigations Into Sex Assault Victims"

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=39557737&nid=148&title=police-criticize-byu-investigations-into-sex-assault-victims

 

And there you go...from the real people who know..to the ones who need to know.

[Tacenda]

24 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

Did you post the right link--this one seems to be about the football player protest over racism at the University of Missouri last year?

Oh dear...thanks!

[Okrahomer]

8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Oh dear...thanks!

No worries. :)

[Storm Rider]

Has anyone explained the punishments for CH violations?  For example, if a student was drinking alcoholic beverages?  Doing Drugs?  Having sex?  Are there clear punishments known by all the students or is it more flexible and the same actions do not necessarily indicate the same punishments depending on circumstances?  

The allegation is that women who are raped and who have also violated the Honor Code are so threatened by an Honor Code action that they do not report.  I am curious about what the punishments are that are threatening these young women.

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, Storm Rider said:

Has anyone explained the punishments for CH violations?  For example, if a student was drinking alcoholic beverages?  Doing Drugs?  Having sex?  Are there clear punishments known by all the students or is it more flexible and the same actions do not necessarily indicate the same punishments depending on circumstances?  

The allegation is that women who are raped and who have also violated the Honor Code are so threatened by an Honor Code action that they do not report.  I am curious about what the punishments are that are threatening these young women.

At this point, what difference would the punishments make??? 

[Calm]

It would help to know whether the problem is fear created by unfounded rumours of punishment, a few unusually harsh callings that have been publicized heavily through the grapevine or other means, or actual consistently strong punishments.  That way the appropriate response can be determined...do they actually need to change policy, make sure policy is consistently applied all the time, or perhapsjust needing to better publicize what happens to dissipate the fear.

[Okrahomer]

 

This is a surprising take on the BYU honor code controversy.  The author's perspective is unique: former BYU professor, non-LDS.  I tend to agree with him that BYU needs to drop the "collusion" between the Title IX office and the Honor Code Office; but dropping the Honor Code altogether?  I don't think so.

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Has anyone explained the punishments for CH violations?  For example, if a student was drinking alcoholic beverages?  Doing Drugs?  Having sex?  Are there clear punishments known by all the students or is it more flexible and the same actions do not necessarily indicate the same punishments depending on circumstances?  

The allegation is that women who are raped and who have also violated the Honor Code are so threatened by an Honor Code action that they do not report.  I am curious about what the punishments are that are threatening these young women.

 https://policy.byu.edu/view/index.php?p=171

Generally, the university will follow the procedural guidelines as outlined in this document. However, the procedures set forth in this document are merely guidelines and are not intended to create any contractual obligations or expectations. The university reserves the right, at its discretion, to vary from these procedures according to the circumstances of individual matters, so long as the student receives from the university, prior to the actual implementation of any disciplinary action, (i) notice of the nature of the alleged or suspected Honor Code violation(s), and (ii) an opportunity to respond.

Both the investigation of reported Honor Code violations and the Administrative Review Process are under the direction of the Student Life Vice President. The Office of the General Counsel may advise university personnel involved in the investigation or Administrative Review anytime during the process as to matters of university policy and procedure relevant to the deliberations.

The Decision and Recommended Actions

At the conclusion of the investigation, and after the nature and extent of a violation have been determined, the HCO representative assigned to the case will review the facts and findings with his/her supervisor(s)* and the HCO Advisory Committee (optional). An appropriate action will be selected from the following: No Action, Counsel and Education, Referral (to a responsible person or agency—e.g., reconciliation process), Warning, Probation, Suspension Withheld, Suspension, and Dismissal. The HCO (or the Dean of Students’ Office) will then prepare a decision letter which will include a brief summary of the provisions of the Honor Code alleged to have been violated, the findings of the investigation and conclusions, the recommended action and, if applicable, any related conditions for reinstatement in good standing and information regarding the student’s right to pursue an administrative review. This letter will constitute the “Decision.”

*Note: all findings resulting in a recommended action of Probation will be approved by the HCO Director. All findings resulting in a recommended action of Suspension Withheld, Suspension, or Dismissal will be approved by both the HCO Director and the Associate Dean of Students.

Records will be retained for all decisions and recommended actions, including recommendations of No Action. The university does not consider the actions of No Action, Counsel and Education, Referral, or Warning to be reportable disciplinary actions when responding to a request for a Dean’s certification from another institution or third party. In addition, a student will remain in good Honor Code standing when an action of No Action, Counsel and Education, Referral, or Warning is recommended. On the other hand, the actions of Probation, Suspension Withheld, Suspension, and Dismissal are reportable disciplinary actions for which the student will lose his or her good Honor Code standing until resolved.

The Decision will be based upon a preponderance of the information (i.e., whether, based on the information before the HCO, it is more likely than not that the misconduct occurred and constitutes a violation of the Honor Code); and the recommendation may take into consideration the selection criteria noted in Appendix A. The HCO (or the Dean of Students’ Office) will notify the student and provide a copy of the Decision within a reasonable time period and in most instances will attempt to review the Decision with the student personally.

When the HCO (or the Dean of Students’ Office) recommends any action other than Dismissal, Referral, No Action, Warning, or Counsel and Education, the Decision will contain information regarding the action and any conditions that must be met in order for the student to maintain or return to good Honor Code standing with the university. Students must be in good Honor Code standing to graduate and receive a diploma. In order to be considered for a return to good standing, students are required to satisfactorily complete the specified conditions. When the Decision includes a recommendation for any action other than No Action, Referral, Warning, or Counsel and Education, the Decision will also contain information regarding the procedure for seeking an administrative review of the Decision.

All Decisions and recommended disciplinary actions will become final unless a timely request for administrative review is submitted by the student as set forth in Part II, below.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Russell C McGregor]

11 hours ago, Jeanne said:

At this point, what difference would the punishments make??? 

It makes a difference, because it gives us a means to check whether there might be a tiny flicker of reasonableness somewhere in all the smoke of this moral panic.

Everyone keeps citing the same story as it gets passed around among different news outlets as though each retelling was a new and independent witness; civil servants cornered by reporters will of course avoid saying anything that might "trigger" an orchestrated outburst of outrage, but what this situation cries out for is facts, not more editorialising.

Some respond to the phrase "Honor Code Office" with a neo-pavlovian "Expulsion!!" but has that ever actually happened?

If it turns out that the punishment for staying out late is to write "I must be in the dorm on time" 500 times, then would any reasonable person really be deterred from reporting an actual rape by such a prospect?